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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 9:37:52 GMT -6
I'm about to record a blues band in my small live room that is 14' x 14' x 9'. They want to record drums, a piano and a bass live in the room, which we only typically use as a drum room and overdubs,. Besides three moveable 7'x5' baffles, we have bass traps in the corners. It works as a drum room, but as a multi instrument live room it is a challenge. I told the band I think they'd be better of recording the rhythm section separately isolating the drums and bass in different rooms and overdubbing the piano, but they said no.
I did some tests with mics placed where the drums, bass and piano are going to be and the snare drum was bleeding like crazy into the bass and piano mics. And this if AFTER placing two 7'x 5' baffles between the drum kit and the bass and piano and using two 6'x3' screen panels at the bass and piano. I'm going to place some rugs down and perhaps buid a cave for the drums, but if anybody has any experience with this kind of situation and advice I'd really appreciate it. The main problem is the snare drum.
I've warned the band that once I hit record, there is no turning back from the bleed and it will limit my ability to separate instruments, but they seem unconcerned. It's strange to me, because I have great mics and a Bricasti to create ambience, but they have a romantic version of playing in a room live. This is going to be a good learning experience for somebody....LOL
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 9:39:37 GMT -6
Is it acoustic (double) bass? Grand piano or upright? I have a few tricks!
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 9:46:17 GMT -6
Is it acoustic (double) bass? Grand piano or upright? I have a few tricks! Thanks for your reply unit7! It is an acoustic upright bass and an upright piano. Love to hear your tricks! |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 14, 2014 9:52:03 GMT -6
without knowing great detail, generally, hyper/super cardoid mics are a must in that sitch, also ribbon mics have great null points and are great if you can aim the backside pattern appropriately, also doubling up gobos can help. Try to arrange the band in a way that has filter friendly bleed, meaning its better to have cymbals bleed on to a bass guitar track than a kick drum on to a bass guitar track..maybe that's obvious, but i hope it helps..
edit; just saw you last post, acoustic bass, Paul(unit7)can give us a clinic on this! looking forward to it.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 14, 2014 9:54:59 GMT -6
Is it acoustic (double) bass? Grand piano or upright? I have a few tricks! Thanks for your reply unit7! It is an acoustic upright bass and an upright piano. Love to hear your tricks! How are you micing the piano? Personally, I would set the piano so that the back is away from the drums and mic the sound board. Like this picture...  This might provide a bit of additional barrier from the drums. |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 10:10:45 GMT -6
Ok! Bass is probably worst...
1st trick that goes against most peoples instincts... Place musicians as close as possible... You'll then be able to put a few ms delay on the whole kit (in mix) to put in phase with the bleed in the bass/pi. The closer the fewer ms=less messing with the timing/groove. Yes, you'll have drum bleed but it won't sound as roomy/ambient. Try to get same distance dr->bass and dr->piano.
Yes, do what you can to dampen the bleed as much as possible. If you'll be caging someone I'd go for the bass, not the drums, but hard to tell without being there seing/hearing.
Then try this on the bass: Wind an SM57 in some foam rubber (with a width same as the length of the mic), enough to be able to squeeze it gently in to the hole in the bridge and stay there (between body and bridge). Mount it pointing upwards. You'll be surprised how good it sounds, and for blues style I think you'll be fine!
Have more SM57s? Put two from the top down thru the top lid on the upright. Not for stereo, just to cover the whole instrument. Adjust postioning until sound is good. I try to put as far as possible from strings/hammers so it doesn't sound so percussive, but its tight so there's not much play. Actually for upright SM57s are great, not so sensitive to bleed, and again for this style I think you'll be surprised. After you're happy with postioning, try to secure stands and the use EVERYTHING you have to isolate the piano - blankets, carpets, soft cases, clothes etc.
Let us know how it works out!
Good luck!
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 10:15:16 GMT -6
Thanks for your reply unit7! It is an acoustic upright bass and an upright piano. Love to hear your tricks! How are you micing the piano? Personally, I would set the piano so that the back is away from the drums and mic the sound board. Like this picture... </div>Thanks for your response and picture jcoutu1 The upright's hammers meets the strings up high like shown in the picture below. So, I'm concerned about the sound if I mic it behind like that. However, if I have no choice.....  |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 10:20:09 GMT -6
without knowing great detail, generally, hyper/super cardoid mics are a must in that sitch, also ribbon mics have great null points and are great if you can aim the backside pattern appropriately, also doubling up gobos can help. Try to arrange the band in a way that has filter friendly bleed, meaning its better to have cymbals bleed on to a bass guitar track than a kick drum on to a bass guitar track..maybe that's obvious, but i hope it helps.. edit; just saw you last post, acoustic bass, Paul(unit7)can give us a clinic on this! looking forward to it. Re acoustic bass micing, SM57 are not my go to, only in this situ  My favorite otherwise is U47 or U47fet 10-15cm from the bridge, pointing straight towards the bridge. Most often at the same hight as the bridge, but if it sounds too deep I put it 3-5 cm higher. If detail is desired I put another SDC condeneser pointing towards lower hand, same distance from the instrument as the main mic to keep in phase (which isn't waterproof as most players move...) |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 10:26:43 GMT -6
Ok! Bass is probably worst... 1st trick that goes against most peoples instincts... Place musicians as close as possible... You'll then be able to put a few ms delay on the whole kit (in mix) to put in phase with the bleed in the bass/pi. The closer the fewer ms=less messing with the timing/groove. Yes, you'll have drum bleed but it won't sound as roomy/ambient. Try to get same distance dr->bass and dr->piano. Yes, do what you can to dampen the bleed as much as possible. If you'll be caging someone I'd go for the bass, not the drums, but hard to tell without being there seing/hearing. Then try this on the bass: Wind an SM57 in some foam rubber (with a width same as the length of the mic), enough to be able to squeeze it gently in to the hole in the bridge and stay there (between body and bridge). Mount it pointing upwards. You'll be surprised how good it sounds, and for blues style I think you'll be fine! Have more SM57s? Put two from the top down thru the top lid on the upright. Not for stereo, just to cover the whole instrument. Adjust postioning until sound is good. I try to put as far as possible from strings/hammers so it doesn't sound so percussive, but its tight so there's not much play. Actually for upright SM57s are great, not so sensitive to bleed, and again for this style I think you'll be surprised. After you're happy with postioning, try to secure stands and the use EVERYTHING you have to isolate the piano - blankets, carpets, soft cases, clothes etc. Let us know how it works out! Good luck! Thanks unit7! A few questions: How far are you talking about the distance between the drums and piano/bass? Do you use foam rubber on the 57's for the piano as well? When you say "isolate the piano" are you talking about a cage of blankets/carpets/soft cases/clothes around the entire piano including overhead? Thanks again. |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 10:27:03 GMT -6
swurveman Re upright piano micing, I don't know if you've recorded many in the past, but you'd be surprised how different they sound from the backside. Some have a huge beautiful sound there while others are surprisingly silent and like..dead. Without drums in the same room both those pics shows good micing. But w drums in the same room, as mentioned, forget about condensers and keep the front lid on! An upright doesn't have that much top end so again you'll be surprised how good SM57s are. And the bleed compared to the 414s...silly!
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 10:33:26 GMT -6
swurveman Re upright piano micing, I don't know if you've recorded many in the past, but you'd be surprised how different they sound from the backside. Some have a huge beautiful sound there while others are surprisingly silent and like..dead. Without drums in the same room both those pics shows good micing. But w drums in the same room, as mentioned, forget about condensers and keep the front lid on! An upright doesn't have that much top end so again you'll be surprised how good SM57s are. And the bleed compared to the 414s...silly! Thanks. I'll try to mic it from the back and see how it sounds, but I have my doubts. I'll put the lids and covers on and go with the SM57's, but I have a couple of Schoeps CM64's that are weeping now. :-) |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 10:44:47 GMT -6
Ok! Bass is probably worst... 1st trick that goes against most peoples instincts... Place musicians as close as possible... You'll then be able to put a few ms delay on the whole kit (in mix) to put in phase with the bleed in the bass/pi. The closer the fewer ms=less messing with the timing/groove. Yes, you'll have drum bleed but it won't sound as roomy/ambient. Try to get same distance dr->bass and dr->piano. Yes, do what you can to dampen the bleed as much as possible. If you'll be caging someone I'd go for the bass, not the drums, but hard to tell without being there seing/hearing. Then try this on the bass: Wind an SM57 in some foam rubber (with a width same as the length of the mic), enough to be able to squeeze it gently in to the hole in the bridge and stay there (between body and bridge). Mount it pointing upwards. You'll be surprised how good it sounds, and for blues style I think you'll be fine! Have more SM57s? Put two from the top down thru the top lid on the upright. Not for stereo, just to cover the whole instrument. Adjust postioning until sound is good. I try to put as far as possible from strings/hammers so it doesn't sound so percussive, but its tight so there's not much play. Actually for upright SM57s are great, not so sensitive to bleed, and again for this style I think you'll be surprised. After you're happy with postioning, try to secure stands and the use EVERYTHING you have to isolate the piano - blankets, carpets, soft cases, clothes etc. Let us know how it works out! Good luck! Thanks unit7! A few questions: How far are you talking about the distance between the drums and piano/bass? Do you use foam rubber on the 57's for the piano as well? When you say "isolate the piano" are you talking about a cage of blankets/carpets/soft cases/clothes around the entire piano including overhead? Thanks again. I'm Paul btw! Distance - in theory as close as possible, but of course most musicians don't enjoy having a crash cymbal 5" from their heads so... Try to stay within like 6-7 feet. 4-5 if possible. The closer the better, if you are going for the delay trick. Foam rubber - Not on piano. It's not for isolating, drums are LOUD so foam rubber wouldn't help much, it's only to make the mic stay in place, and it won't damage the bass or the bass players nerves Isolating the piano - Yes, just bury it in fabric! Especially from the top where the mics are. That's why you have to make sure you secure those mic/stands so they won't move. And of course, use all gobos and isolation you have. Just check w the musicians if they need eye contact |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 10:51:49 GMT -6
swurveman Re upright piano micing, I don't know if you've recorded many in the past, but you'd be surprised how different they sound from the backside. Some have a huge beautiful sound there while others are surprisingly silent and like..dead. Without drums in the same room both those pics shows good micing. But w drums in the same room, as mentioned, forget about condensers and keep the front lid on! An upright doesn't have that much top end so again you'll be surprised how good SM57s are. And the bleed compared to the 414s...silly! Thanks. I'll try to mic it from the back and see how it sounds, but I have my doubts. I'll put the lids and covers on and go with the SM57's, but I have a couple of Schoeps CM64's that are weeping now. :-) Ha! Yes, love Schoeps! But... on upright, I did an A/B a while ago SM57 against a pair of gorgeous KM56s. I was shocked... Please note - put mics thru the top opening, not on the back. This to minimize bleed. Well....if this particular piano has a huge sound from the back that could work too. If you place the piano 1 foot from a wall and squeezing the mics in there, close to the back of the piano, and then build a cave of fabric around |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 14, 2014 10:52:37 GMT -6
The upright's hammers meets the strings up high like shown in the picture below. So, I'm concerned about the sound if I mic it behind like that. However, if I have no choice..... FWIW, when I'm working with the upright and this mic technique, I'm doing this live at a venue. Positioning behind the piano helps minimize some bleed from the other musicians and helps me avoid feedback problems that I would run into with mics instead the piano. The piano that I use has the hammers positioned similarly to this one pictured. I use a pair of Beyer M201's behind the piano on the backboard, similar to the picture I posted. I position the mics only a few inches from the backboard, and a bit higher up than the pic I posted, then move the mics around a little to find the best balance. Subtractive eq will be your friend here. Also, I'm totally in favor of the band recording this type of stuff together. Because they're playing off of each other, they'll nail the emotion and dynamics. |
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Post by Ward on Nov 14, 2014 10:54:47 GMT -6
The long and short of it.
The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments.
repeat. repeat. repeat.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 14, 2014 10:57:29 GMT -6
The long and short of it. The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments. repeat. repeat. repeat. Yep. Bleed will happen. You need to get the sound as close to finished as possible when going to tape. Don't plan for "fix in the mix" with something like this. |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 10:57:31 GMT -6
Thanks unit7! A few questions: How far are you talking about the distance between the drums and piano/bass? Do you use foam rubber on the 57's for the piano as well? When you say "isolate the piano" are you talking about a cage of blankets/carpets/soft cases/clothes around the entire piano including overhead? Thanks again. I'm Paul btw! Distance - in theory as close as possible, but of course most musicians don't enjoy having a crash cymbal 5" from their heads so... Try to stay within like 6-7 feet. 4-5 if possible. The closer the better, if you are going for the delay trick. Foam rubber - Not on piano. It's not for isolating, drums are LOUD so foam rubber wouldn't help much, it's only to make the mic stay in place, and it won't damage the bass or the bass players nerves Isolating the piano - Yes, just bury it in fabric! Especially from the top where the mics are. That's why you have to make sure you secure those mic/stands so they won't move. And of course, use all gobos and isolation you have. Just check w the musicians if they need eye contact Thanks for the follow up. I really appreciate your help and will try everything you suggest. I was going for a drum cave, but now will go for bass/piano caves. |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 11:03:57 GMT -6
I produced this album 10yrs ago. (hope the Spotify link works) Not only in swedish but also the very special dialect from south Sweden  Whole album was SM57s on upright piano, and drummer in same room. Artist, also playing acoustic, was in iso booth. Oddly enough no bass, only dr, pi & acoustic. The quite dirty sound was intentional. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 14, 2014 11:12:40 GMT -6
Thanks unit7! A few questions: How far are you talking about the distance between the drums and piano/bass? Do you use foam rubber on the 57's for the piano as well? When you say "isolate the piano" are you talking about a cage of blankets/carpets/soft cases/clothes around the entire piano including overhead? Thanks again. I'm Paul btw! Distance - in theory as close as possible, but of course most musicians don't enjoy having a crash cymbal 5" from their heads so... Try to stay within like 6-7 feet. 4-5 if possible. The closer the better, if you are going for the delay trick. Foam rubber - Not on piano. It's not for isolating, drums are LOUD so foam rubber wouldn't help much, it's only to make the mic stay in place, and it won't damage the bass or the bass players nerves Isolating the piano - Yes, just bury it in fabric! Especially from the top where the mics are. That's why you have to make sure you secure those mic/stands so they won't move. And of course, use all gobos and isolation you have. Just check w the musicians if they need eye contact maybe you can set up an acoustic bass mic where you think you want it, and then have the drummer play without the bass player, if you can't get it by ear, check the audio file to make sure the drum bleed is being picked up by the acoustic bass mic on a compression cycle vs a rarefaction cycle regarding phase, then move it closer or farther accordingly till it lines up? that seems to work well...for all the instruments, gives good image in phase, what do you say to this jazzmaster Paul?  (or did you already say that?) |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 11:13:17 GMT -6
The long and short of it. The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments. repeat. repeat. repeat. Good stuff. Plan and prepare musicians for some testing. But imo bass/piano bleed into drum mics won't be an issue causing the piano/bass to sound bad. Drums/piano will bleed into the bass mic, and drums will bleed into the piano mics. Btw, forgot to ask if the bass player has a line signal. Sounds like crap, but could help in this case. Sh*t, got worked up  I'll try to shut up now.. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 14, 2014 11:17:20 GMT -6
The long and short of it. The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments. repeat. repeat. repeat. Good stuff. Plan and prepare musicians for some testing. But imo bass/piano bleed into drum mics won't be an issue causing the piano/bass to sound bad. Drums/piano will bleed into the bass mic, and drums will bleed into the piano mics. Btw, forgot to ask if the bass player has a line signal. Sounds like crap, but could help in this case. Sh*t, got worked up I'll try to shut up now..noooo! keep going bro! 8) |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 11:22:19 GMT -6
The long and short of it. The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments. repeat. repeat. repeat. Thanks Ward. When you say "compatable mics" are you talking about having the same mics, or generally saying mics that work together? The biggest problem I was having was the volume of the snare in the upright bass and snare mics. The mics I have with the narrowest patterns are sm57's and 421's. I recognize this is going to be a laborious process. Thanks for the heads up in how to work the process. |
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Post by unit7 on Nov 14, 2014 11:24:59 GMT -6
Good stuff. Plan and prepare musicians for some testing. But imo bass/piano bleed into drum mics won't be an issue causing the piano/bass to sound bad. Drums/piano will bleed into the bass mic, and drums will bleed into the piano mics. Btw, forgot to ask if the bass player has a line signal. Sounds like crap, but could help in this case. Sh*t, got worked up I'll try to shut up now..noooo! keep going bro! 8) Remember I'm scandinavian. We're calm and balanced (=boring). No italian blood in this one. |
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Post by swurveman on Nov 14, 2014 11:38:43 GMT -6
I produced this album 10yrs ago. (hope the Spotify link works) Not only in swedish but also the very special dialect from south Sweden Whole album was SM57s on upright piano, and drummer in same room. Artist, also playing acoustic, was in iso booth. Oddly enough no bass, only dr, pi & acoustic. The quite dirty sound was intentional. Well done. Here's a song this band is going to do. All their songs have a prominent snare in the songs they gave me as reference. So, I assume the drummer is going to be popping it, though some times it will be brushes. https%3A//soundcloud.com/songflowerrecording/hold-me-tenderly-mp3With piano and bushes.... https%3A//soundcloud.com/songflowerrecording/t-aint-for-texas-mp3 |
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Post by Ward on Nov 14, 2014 11:45:37 GMT -6
The long and short of it. The snare drum will bleed into everything. The bass will bleed into the drums. The piano will bleed into the overheads. There is NO way around the bleed. So you figure out how to USE the bleed to your advantage. The bleed from one into the other can be ambiance. BUT you need compatible mics throughout and also must check phase on EVERYTHING... record a verse or two, isolate everything and start blending elements together - with the band present - and see if there are any issues with phase cancellation or comb filtering. You may then have to reposition microphones and instruments. repeat. repeat. repeat. Thanks Ward. When you say "compatable mics" are you talking about having the same mics, or generally saying mics that work together? The biggest problem I was having was the volume of the snare in the upright bass and snare mics. The mics I have with the narrowest patterns are sm57's and 421's. I recognize this is going to be a laborious process. Thanks for the heads up in how to work the process. Well. They all need to have the same phase for starts. And you need to avoid hyper-cardioids cos the null points can create more phase issues. I'd also avoid omnis except as room mics. Believe it or not, cardioid LDCs that sound similar to each other (like a bunch of U87s, U89s, TLM102s etc and Gefells) would probably give you the most homogenous sound for all elements. but I would still experiement! The off-axis sound of a Neumann LDC is infinitely nicer to the off-axis sound from ANY SDC. IMHO |
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My favorite otherwise is U47 or U47fet 10-15cm from the bridge, pointing straight towards the bridge. Most often at the same hight as the bridge, but if it sounds too deep I put it 3-5 cm higher. If detail is desired I put another SDC condeneser pointing towards lower hand, same distance from the instrument as the main mic to keep in phase (which isn't waterproof as most players move...)
Whole album was SM57s on upright piano, and drummer in same room. Artist, also playing acoustic, was in iso booth. Oddly enough no bass, only dr, pi & acoustic. The quite dirty sound was intentional.
(or did you already say that?)
I'll try to shut up now..