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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 12:49:48 GMT -6
Well my friends, I'm about to throw in the towel on some songs I've been working on for a long time now. There are some parts I'd like to redo, (like making these backup vocals a little stronger), but time spent on this is time I'm not making any money, and I need to begin moving forward. I'd like your opinion on how it sounds. Too crunchy, too anything?
This was done in the noisiest living room in NYC, with a combination of UAD, Waves and Slate, AOM, and Kush plugs, after passing through the Warm Audio WA76 and ToneBeast. I will run another less compressed mix for possible mastering sometime down the road, but for now, for using on sites like Soundcloud, Facebook, Bandcamp, I did my own faux mastering. It's quite redlined, but I used my ears to get a competitive volume level, hopefully leaving a little dynamic range without crushing it completely. I posted this a while back, and the mighty Anton Evans sat in on the bass since then, and it made all the difference in the world to me, and the music.
*Special thanks to cowboycoalminer and kcatthedog for their generous support and invaluable suggestions.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/somethings-coming-new-mix-11-12-14
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 12:54:15 GMT -6
Here's a screenshot: *oh, this was auto-tune free ;-) Attachments:
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2014 14:30:17 GMT -6
sounds good martin, nice song buddy, i'd beef up that snare drum to fill the middle a bit, seems plenty of space for it, of course, grain of salt, JMO 8)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 14:35:40 GMT -6
Funny, I did exactly that Tony, kept going back and forth with a pinch more snare, a pinch less. Good ears bro, thanks.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 12, 2014 14:44:16 GMT -6
Hey Martin, I think the vocal might be a bit hot. Personally, I listen to a lot of pop with up front vocals and tend to mix the vocal hot myself, but I think it might just be a hair loud. Great voice man, I wish I could sing like that.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 14:53:47 GMT -6
Thanks jcoutou, I was going back and forth with the vocal level too. I love how someone like Dierks Bentley's vocal is both huge and comfortable, but then my own taste in music leans to bands like The War On Drugs, and the vocal is kind of buried. I'll take all these suggestions in, and do a remix once everyone's suggestions are posted. Thanks for mentioning my voice, when it's you singing, it always sounds pretty bad to you.
Tony, a friend of mine who's been a part of the Americana music scene for a long time has been bugging me to lower drum levels, more like The Byrds, or Crosby, Stills and Nash, so his voice was in my head when I was doing this mix.
* I just gave it a listen after walking my dog Charlie and a coffee break, and cranked it a bit. I tend to mix at low to medium levels. I'm thinking the vocal is a pinch hot because although it could stand as is, when the second verse hits, the vocal doesn't relax.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2014 16:01:55 GMT -6
Thanks jcoutou, I was going back and forth with the vocal level too. I love how someone like Dierks Bentley's vocal is both huge and comfortable, but then my own taste in music leans to bands like The War On Drugs, and the vocal is kind of buried. I'll take all these suggestions in, and do a remix once everyone's suggestions are posted. Thanks for mentioning my voice, when it's you singing, it always sounds pretty bad to you. Tony, a friend of mine who's been a part of the Americana music scene for a long time has been bugging me to lower drum levels, more like The Byrds, or Crosby, Stills and Nash, so his voice was in my head when I was doing this mix. * I just gave it a listen after walking my dog Charlie and a coffee break, and cranked it a bit. I tend to mix at low to medium levels. I'm thinking the vocal is a pinch hot because although it could stand as is, when the second verse hits, the vocal doesn't relax. it's not about the volume as much as the way it's eq'd to thin i think. |
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Post by wiz on Nov 12, 2014 16:09:56 GMT -6
One quick tip... when trying to set levels , particularly vocal and especially on something you wrote, san and mixed.... its really hard to have any perspective at all left...
I turn the volume WAAAAYYYY down, and then adjust the kick snare and vocal.. especially makes setting the vocal and snare easier.
Some people i know, listen from another room...
give it a try next time and see if it helps
cheers
Wiz
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 12, 2014 16:13:01 GMT -6
One quick tip... when trying to set levels , particularly vocal and especially on something you wrote, san and mixed.... its really hard to have any perspective at all left... I turn the volume WAAAAYYYY down, and then adjust the kick snare and vocal.. especially makes setting the vocal and snare easier. Some people i know, listen from another room... give it a try next time and see if it helps cheers Wiz I was listening and thought the vocal was too hot in the mix, so I did the same thing. Turned my volume WAAAAAAYYYY down and it still seemed to poke through too much, that's why I mentioned it. Good tip wiz. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 12, 2014 16:32:53 GMT -6
Cool Song and great voice! Low volume in mono works for me. I don't think anything is wrong unless it's a distraction. If I'm thinking about something other than the song and getting lost in it's emotion then it's not wrong. In this case to me the Vocal is a little to out front and feels separated from the song.
When doing everything all yourself its hard to keep a proper perspective. Most singers mix their voice too loud as drummers mix their drums too loud and so on. |
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Post by wiz on Nov 12, 2014 16:36:43 GMT -6
yeah..mono.... forgot to mention that... great tip cheers Wiz |
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2014 16:38:42 GMT -6
One quick tip... when trying to set levels , particularly vocal and especially on something you wrote, san and mixed.... its really hard to have any perspective at all left... I turn the volume WAAAAYYYY down, and then adjust the kick snare and vocal.. especially makes setting the vocal and snare easier. Some people i know, listen from another room... give it a try next time and see if it helps cheers Wiz 100 time yes! this is the greatest trick for revealing whats actually going on level wise. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 17:55:06 GMT -6
Thanks guys, all your comments are much appreciated.I almost always listen from another room at some point for perspective.
As for being too thin, I probably agree. What's happening is that I'm stuck in a corner, so it's boomy, and I heard too much bass, so I use to end up cutting bass too much. I turned the bass down on my Adam A7X monitors, hoping that it would help compensate, and it'll be balanced. I've done OK with this, but it's a workaround, not a great situation.
I'll take another crack at it now. My neighbors upstairs are home now, so I'm not as free to play at any level as I am earlier in the day, so if it doesn't gel, I'll try again tomorrow.
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Post by M57 on Nov 12, 2014 18:12:55 GMT -6
I was just going to suggest walking into the next room - I do that all the time.
So anyway, my first thought was that the vocal was too hot, but after listening a while longer I notice it more on the high notes. So maybe a bit more compression on the track? Mind you I'm not an engineer, I'm just a singer, but a little more mic technique on the performance end would go a long way - you wouldn't have to use as much compression on the track.
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Post by tonycamphd on Nov 12, 2014 18:40:50 GMT -6
Thanks guys, all your comments are much appreciated.I almost always listen from another room at some point for perspective. As for being too thin, I probably agree. What's happening is that I'm stuck in a corner, so it's boomy, and I heard too much bass, so I use to end up cutting bass too much. I turned the bass down on my Adam A7X monitors, hoping that it would help compensate, and it'll be balanced. I've done OK with this, but it's a workaround, not a great situation. I'll take another crack at it now. My neighbors upstairs are home now, so I'm not as free to play at any level as I am earlier in the day, so if it doesn't gel, I'll try again tomorrow. mjb, listen to some of your fav tracks at a very low volume, acclimate, and give it a shot down low, you may be surprised bro? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 12, 2014 18:51:09 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/somethings-coming-alt-new-mix
Good to hear from you m57, and welcome. Sometimes I think my mic could use a little more bottom, and I tend to compensate by getting in a little too close. Cowboy's been trying to get me to move back a little, and I'm working on it ;-)
OK guys, I had to use headphones, so I may be off, but I tried some of the suggestions here. Tony, I tinkered with the snare in the Superior Drummer mixer and in the API EQ to get a little more fat in the center, brought the bass guitar up a little, and I changed the blend in the 2 bus, more Ampex 102 for fat, a little more compression, 1.2 db less gain. I lowered the lead vocal by .8 DB.
Let me know if I'm going the right way, or if I made a wrong turn, I have both mixes saved.
Thanks guys.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 13, 2014 9:19:15 GMT -6
Hey Martin, I just turned this one. It sounds like the vocal is distorting at :19 and seems to be on and off throughout. Not sure if it's the limiter folding the mix or something? I'm just on a set of desktop speakers right now though. I would try the vocal another half dB back too, but I like where it's sitting in this mix better than the last one.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 13, 2014 10:07:48 GMT -6
Thanks bro, will take a closer look later this afternoon.. I did this vocal after a terrible chest cold/cough that lingered for two months, and my voice was still a little froggier than usual. I'm not sure if it's just my singing of the compression around .019. but I do I hear what you mentioned.
I'll put it up on my monitors later, and see if it reveals itself as being my vocal itself, or something to do with the compressors. I have the Renaissance De-esser, and UAD LA2 on the vocal, plus Slates VBC in the 2 bus, plus the UAD Ampex 102 adding "tape compression", the A.O.M Stereo Widener, where I set the mix soundstage, the A.O.M Limiter, around 8 DB of compression, no gain and then a little Apple Gain boost of 2.4 DB.
It not so easy finding the glitch culprit. It's usually something in the the actual vocal, often something digital, like a fade needed in Logic's automation or comp. If not, I look at the A.O.M Limiter or the VBC.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Nov 13, 2014 10:51:15 GMT -6
Thanks bro, will take a closer look later this afternoon.. I did this vocal after a terrible chest cold/cough that lingered for two months, and my voice was still a little froggier than usual. I'm not sure if it's just my singing of the compression around .019. but I do I hear what you mentioned. I'll put it up on my monitors later, and see if it reveals itself as being my vocal itself, or something to do with the compressors. I have the Renaissance De-esser, and UAD LA2 on the vocal, plus Slates VBC in the 2 bus, plus the UAD Ampex 102 adding "tape compression", the A.O.M Stereo Widener, where I set the mix soundstage, the A.O.M Limiter, around 8 DB of compression, no gain and then a little Apple Gain boost of 2.4 DB. It not so easy finding the glitch culprit. It's usually something in the the actual vocal, often something digital, like a fade needed in Logic's automation or comp. If not, I look at the A.O.M Limiter or the VBC. It didn't sound like it was distorted in the first mix, so I think it's something with this new mix. You're using Apple Gain after the limiter? How come? Wouldn't you set the limiter peak at -.2 or something to get the peaks up and leave it? Adding gain after the limiter would blow it up, no? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 13, 2014 11:55:30 GMT -6
Appreciate the insight jcoutoou, I didn't compare that part to the first mix, will do now. In trying to get my levels up to pro levels, I've created some workarounds that might not be too kosher, but they seem to work.
I will compare the 2 bus settings on the first mix, perhaps copy them as a channel strip to the new mix to see what happens.
Once I got the sound where I like it with the Slate VBC > UAD Ampex > Kush Clariphonic >A.O.M Stereo Widener > AOM Limiter, I found I needed more level, but if I added gain from the AOM, it affects the tone too, so I figure the Apple Gain was just a clean gain, no algorithm's that work like the Massive Passive, where changing one thing affects the other. It could be placebo too, but I'm not very susceptible, though not immune.
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Post by RicFoxx on Nov 13, 2014 13:58:40 GMT -6
Martin John Butler shoot me a file through one of the filesharing options... My email is ricfoxx@yahoo and I will run it through the RND Portico II Master Buss Processor. If you want to send stems I can run it through the Phoenix Nicerizer and then the RND Processor.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 13, 2014 16:51:33 GMT -6
Hi Ric, thanks so much for the generous offer. I'll post a link tomorrow. I'd do it right now, but I have an hour to get to Brooklyn, ( about an hour way) for a UAD demo at a studio. It's been two years since I attended one of theses events, but the last time was great, because I met some amazing engineers there.
I'll try posting two mixes, one with little or no 2 bus compression.
The plot thickens.. ;-)
* thanks to Tonycamphd for sending me some great notes on some new techniques to try. By the weekend, I should have something done I can call a final, ( I hope :-)
,
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Post by svart on Nov 14, 2014 8:27:09 GMT -6
Actually I find it a little light on the bottom end and mid heavy on the voice. Otherwise it's cool.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 14, 2014 9:01:26 GMT -6
Thanks for listening svart, I agree.
I'm trying to figure out how best to adjust that. The vocal is my fault, I have a habit of recording a little too close to the mic, and I like the SSL EQ plug, which is kind of fat, when the API might be more suitable.. I've also noticed the tone in the vocal changes with the amount of compression. In trying to tame some vocal peaks, I sometimes overdo the compression, (hence, this post).
Gannon from UAD suggested I ry to ride the vocal. Funny, I've used Waves Vocal Rider before with good results, but forgot I had it. I'll try it next chance I get.
I wish I could do it now, but there's a few things at home I have to do, so it'll have to wait until tomorrow afternoon.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Nov 19, 2014 10:14:50 GMT -6
https%3A//soundcloud.com/martin-john-butler/somethings-coming-wideThanks to all of you here for taking some time to listen, and for your thoughtful suggestions. In this mix I did a few things to address the areas you guys made suggestions about. First, I put a vocal rider on the main vocal. That was Gannon from UAD's suggestion. I lowered the vocal .6 db, but tweaked the LA2 a little until it seemed to sit well. I increased bass by .8 DB and added a pinch more Waves Maxx Bass, which sort of widens it a little. Next, thanks to Tony, I placed the two 12 string electrics wider. Originally they were at 9:00 and 3:00, now they're at 7:00 and 5:00. The two acoustic guitars have stayed panned all the way left and right. Also, I tried to fatten the snare a little to fill up the middle as per Tony's suggestion. I played around with settings in the 2 bus a little, adding the FG-MU to the Slate VBC rack, which brightens everything nicely in this case, I put a little more Clariphonic on, dropped the A.O.M Limiter to 6.75 in gain, which gives around 2-3 db in compression, then I added 1.2 db Gain from Apple's Gain tool at the end of the 2 bus chain, for a high level for posting online. For real mastering, I'd run it without as much gain, then let the mastering take care of levels. The most effective change I think, was adding the FG-MU which helped a little to compensate for the loss of quality when bouncing. My main complaint is the difference I hear when comparing the Logic DAW mix and the bounce. The mix is great, the bounce, not so. The new "wider" mix is at the top of this post, below is the 2 bus signal chain screenshot. Attachment Deleted
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