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Post by tonycamphd on May 31, 2015 13:03:05 GMT -6
JK, NO ONE said his box sucks, actually quite the opposite, I don't understand the contentiousness on your part? This a healthy shake out, a multi person evaluation with honest portrayals, it's a VERY GOOD IDEA in order to protect everyone involved, is Svart going to offer a satisfaction/money back guarantee on this box? If not, there could be some fallout if people aren't happy with the unit? From my perspective, i've made it abundantly clear that i want Chris to kill it with this! He and I have had our diffs in the past, but i've known the guy for a few years now and I think he's cool, he's got a lot of value going on, i've learned more than my fair share from him, respect! I want nothing more than to see him be successful..period, i'm also interested in picking one of these up myself, so maybe i'm selfish in urging him to take it to the limit? beyond that,
I believe all of us want svart to kill this thing! and we all know this is a massively complex feat he's in the process of pulling off, don't hate on us for (respectfully)pushing him for the best possible outcome, and to do what is expected of any gear provider who ultimately expects success, listening tests and tweaking, honestly, this should be expected and EMBRACED! I might also add that trying to find a way to be honest about an assessment, and not come off like an asshole isn't easy for anyone who's connected to the creator, which we all are.
My understanding is 2 of the 3 who evaluated this so far align on their observations, as a 4th listener of some converted files, my assessment lined up with those 2, NONE of us talked about our thoughts before the others listened, Dan and Chuck are friggin tops! I guarantee there is NO agenda... I hope the other RGO fella's show up to Chuck's place to share thoughts on the box as well, the more the better, this is all good.
we all want to see Chris hit a grand salami!
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Post by svart on May 31, 2015 13:46:06 GMT -6
JK, NO ONE said his box sucks, actually quite the opposite, I don't understand the contentiousness on your part? This a healthy shake out, a multi person evaluation with honest portrayals, it's a VERY GOOD IDEA in order to protect everyone involved, is Svart going to offer a satisfaction/money back guarantee on this box? If not, there could be some fallout if people aren't happy with the unit? From my perspective, i've made it abundantly clear that i want Chris to kill it with this! He and I have had our diffs in the past, but i've known the guy for a few years now and I think he's cool, he's got a lot of value going on, i've learned more than my fair share from him, respect! I want nothing more than to see him be successful..period, i'm also interested in picking one of these up myself, so maybe i'm selfish in urging him to take it to the limit? beyond that, I believe all of us want svart to kill this thing! and we all know this is a massively complex feat he's in the process of pulling off, don't hate on us for (respectfully)pushing him for the best possible outcome, and to do what is expected of any gear provider who ultimately expects success, listening tests and tweaking, honestly, this should be expected and EMBRACED! I might also add that trying to find a way to be honest about an assessment, and not come off like an asshole isn't easy for anyone who's connected to the creator, which we all are. My understanding is 2 of the 3 who evaluated this so far align on their observations, as a 4th listener of some converted files, my assessment lined up with those 2, NONE of us talked about our thoughts before the others listened, Dan and Chuck are friggin tops! I guarantee there is NO agenda... I hope the other RGO fella's show up to Chuck's place to share thoughts on the box as well, the more the better, this is all good. we all want to see Chris hit a grand salami! I think John sees these opinions portrayed as factual statements, and he probably feels that these statements can affect future listeners by creating an expectation that isn't based on anything but comparisons to devices of a different market. I agree with his sentiment , but I'm also perfectly ok with the listening criticism, as its only going to make me ensure this thing works as it should! Like yesterday, i took about 4 hours running technical tests to ensure the flatness of the low end, and now i have the graphs to back up my position that this unit is not "lacking" low end, even if it doesn't have as much as other comparison units. Without criticism, i would not have been so thorough, and now i plan on doing much more testing and publishing of graphs as i can. |
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Post by svart on May 31, 2015 14:29:26 GMT -6
Ok, Ive spent all morning running tests. This is feeding out from the DAC directly into my SSL alphalink. Doing loopbacks through the alphalink show it flat down to around 10hz up to beyond 50K, so it shouldn't affect the graphs much, although it might contribute to making the DAC look more rolled off below 10hz, as if anyone cared about anything below 10hz.. First, a frequency plot of 5hz to 30khz over a 10 second period: Since there seems to be questions over the low end, I ran some burst tests at -1dB out from 5hz to 100hz in 5hz/3 second intervals to see what the response was and if the level changed if the unit dwelled on a frequency for a few seconds, rather than simply sweeping through it. It's better than 1dB flat down to 15hz, with a -3dB point around 5hz: 5hz: -4dB 10hz: -2.3dB 15hz: -1.8dB 20hz: -1.6dB 25hz: -1.5dB 30hz: -1.4dB 35hz: -1.4dB 40hz: -1.4dB 45hz: -1.4dB 50hz: -1.4dB 55hz: -1.4dB 60hz: -1.4dB 65hz: -1.4dB 70hz: -1.4dB 75hz: -1.4dB 80hz: -1.4dB 85hz: -1.4dB 90hz: -1.4dB 95hz: -1.4dB 100hz: -1.4dB I also decided to look at the whole mid-low end, so I ran the same test from 100hz to 300hz, in 25hz/3 second intervals: 100hz: -1.4dB 125hz: -1.4dB 150hz: -1.4dB 175hz: -1.4dB 200hz: -1.4db 225hz: -1.4db 250hz: -1.4dB 275hz: -1.4dB 300hz: -1.4dB I honestly still don't see a problem with the low end. It's perfectly flat as far as I can tell.If the symphony or SB is 1.4db up over the Svartacus at ALL those frequencies from 100-300, you could bet you'd hear it. Like I said, I haven't shot this out, but i did listen to some files, and i also read comments about "clinical" being paramount. What svarts doing here is awesome, and I respect him for having the balls to try it, and for being so far toward success. But I'm of the opinion that easy, natural, musical, and accurate are not words that are exclusive from one another, something does NOT have to sound clinical to be accurate, these analyzer readings mean nothing in that regard, trust your ears to guide your formidable EE chops, and try some things would be my suggestion, if this rig ends up being even remotely unsatisfying to listen to, who's gonna want to use it? Personally, I want something that sounds great to all that listen to it, represents accurately what's going on with the frequency range regarding amplitude, image accuracy concerning depth and stereo width, so i can confidently place tracks precisely within the soundstage, if ALL these essential aspects are not happening in a synergistic, musical way, I just won't dig it. I think it would behoove you to explore what is going on beyond the analyzer at this point, you're so close, you just need to do a little massaging to dial it in. Of course JMO. Don't let the -1.4db fool you. I simply posted the raw numbers. I could have normalized to 0 but chose to leave the raw data. I simply wanted to show that the unit didn't have any rolloff unit below 20hz, so what's important here is to note the delta between the numbers. I'll post more graphs but the -1.4db extends well up to 22khz, so it's not that the low end is -1.4db lower than the high end, because it's not. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 31, 2015 14:40:20 GMT -6
But that's just it, Tony. The picture that's being painted is that it lacks bottom. In comparison to a modded Superbeast? The Symphony? If that's true then the stock RM Superbeast lacks bottom...and I haven't read anywhere where that was the case. Will you mod your RM converters when you get them? I heard the file Dan sent too - his did have more bottom. Is Dan's the measuring stick for all converters with the truest bottom end? I don't know. So I don't know how anyone can factually say that...That's all I'm saying. I just think saying "it lacks bass" could possibly scare a lot of people away because it sounds derogatory - when we are talking really small differences.
Maybe we should rent a Weiss or Lavry Gold or something that is known for being extremely flat and compare...? Although, this wasn't designed to compete in that pricerange.
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Post by kcatthedog on May 31, 2015 15:01:58 GMT -6
I think bottom line is there isn't anything"wrong' with the svart box. Sonic beauty is like any other beauty, in the eye of the beholder , one need look no further than our thread here about monitors to conclude about consistency, is anybody using the same monitors ?
Do you want your converters to let you hear with hi resolution and linearity what your mix actually sounds like or do you want them to add something to your mix: 6 of one etc., etc.
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Post by RicFoxx on May 31, 2015 18:09:12 GMT -6
I think everybody is right on this one...I understand when John says "it reads negative that it lacks bass" and when Dan said "it's very good but Ive made some recommendations to make it better." I thought the idea was to let guys with really respected ears test this thing and make recommendations/give opinions. svart this is an excellent chance to receive feedback and knock this thing out of the park. I thought the idea was to make this thing the best possible and if you didn't want feedback then why would you send it out for testing. I mean Im sure its great now and worth twice as much as your charging but man your almost there to really having something that could be a game changer. I applaud what your doing and although I can't speak for others...I believe people are cheering you on and want to see this thing BLOW UP! (literally of course) PS sorry for the phrase "game changer," I really hate that! |
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Post by svart on May 31, 2015 18:32:45 GMT -6
I think everybody is right on this one...I understand when John says "it reads negative that it lacks bass" and when Dan said "it's very good but Ive made some recommendations to make it better." I thought the idea was to let guys with really respected ears test this thing and make recommendations/give opinions. svart this is an excellent chance to receive feedback and knock this thing out of the park. I thought the idea was to make this thing the best possible and if you didn't want feedback then why would you send it out for testing. I mean Im sure its great now and worth twice as much as your charging but man your almost there to really having something that could be a game changer. I applaud what your doing and although I can't speak for others...I believe people are cheering you on and want to see this thing BLOW UP! (literally of course) PS sorry for the phrase "game changer," I really hate that! Not sure why you think I didn't want feedback.. Feedback is exactly what I sent it out for! I just have to make sure that I listen to everyone, as well as trying to figure out if there are actually problems, or if the opinions are simply just opinions. So far, the biggest one was the "lacking low end", which through the testing I did yesterday, I found out is just opinion. Now the question is, do I follow that opinion, or not? As I mentioned earlier, I have just about equal numbers of folks telling me that it's either perfect the way it is, or that it needs more low end. Which way do I go from here? If I do either one, I'm going to alienate the other half. So there is the dilemma. I started out with folks telling me they wanted super flat, super bandwidth converters. I'm certain I delivered on that. Now, I have people telling me that they don't actually like the sound of perfectly flat converters and they want more bottom end. So, again, a dilemma. And the last dilemma is do I make it sound pretty and euphonic, but not be perfectly flat? I'm immediately going to alienate those who want a crystal clear converter, while gaining those who want something more pleasing to the ear, but technically colored. A couple weeks ago, I was pretty excited to be getting done with this, but now I'm really hesitant because I feel like I'm in a no-win situation. So what would you do? |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 31, 2015 18:47:43 GMT -6
A couple weeks ago, I was pretty excited to be getting done with this, but now I'm really hesitant because I feel like I'm in a no-win situation. Unfortunately, you are... But if you make the changes to put more bottom in - I'll take one of these first units without it. I felt extremely confident that I could do some great mixing with the way the one I heard. |
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Post by b1 on May 31, 2015 18:49:44 GMT -6
If it was me (and clearly it's not), I would release what you have. A lot of people would be happy to have anything near RM or Burl stuff. A lot is left to taste at some point. If I had a unit modded to my preferences, then I'm sure something "clinical" would sound foreign.... That said, I just ordered a console and those converters may be fine for me. It's not high end, but I've worked with a lot less and made enjoyable music in past years...
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Post by b1 on May 31, 2015 18:52:14 GMT -6
Unfortunately, you are... But if you make the changes to put more bottom in - I'll take one of these first units without it. I felt extremely confident that I could do some great mixing with the way the one I heard. Clean sounds good to me. I think I could perform surgery better in a clean un-hyped environment. |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 31, 2015 19:05:49 GMT -6
I meant to say "even if you make changes to put more bottom in"
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Post by kcatthedog on May 31, 2015 19:08:31 GMT -6
Svart, the dilemma is not the problem, not having a solution is the problem  I agree with you , at least based on what has been said on the thread. So, why not A B it ?: Plan A: release what you have in AD, DA and.or AD/DA , and Plan B; explore the transformer mod as an add on ? That way people who said they wanted clean, get clean and you get some cash, satisfied customer, exposure and closure, then Explore the transformer mod and decide to offer it or not, if so, then people who want clean and colour can have both ? |
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Post by dandeurloo on May 31, 2015 19:21:35 GMT -6
As is the the Svart box will smoke most interface AD and DA out there and a ton of older Highend AD/DA's. So, it is already a really great sounding unit and it is easily well worth the original asking price.
I am by no means the standard of what is a perfect AD / DA. I have done a lot of time comparing head to head a lot of gear. Doing those comparisons shaped/shapes my opinions on what I prefer. In one of those recent comparisons with my RM Superbeast and a unit a friend of mine built, I noticed the stock Superbeast was lacking a little bottom and was a little less 3d then his. (His DAC is the most musical and effortless sounding DAC I have heard.) I went home and modded one side of the DAC and started to compare the stock Superbeast to the modded version. I used known great sounding mixes in different genres. It took me about 5 mins to clearly hear that the mod sounded better with no negative side effects. Pretty easy.
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Post by RicFoxx on May 31, 2015 20:08:38 GMT -6
I think everybody is right on this one...I understand when John says "it reads negative that it lacks bass" and when Dan said "it's very good but Ive made some recommendations to make it better." I thought the idea was to let guys with really respected ears test this thing and make recommendations/give opinions. svart this is an excellent chance to receive feedback and knock this thing out of the park. I thought the idea was to make this thing the best possible and if you didn't want feedback then why would you send it out for testing. I mean Im sure its great now and worth twice as much as your charging but man your almost there to really having something that could be a game changer. I applaud what your doing and although I can't speak for others...I believe people are cheering you on and want to see this thing BLOW UP! (literally of course) PS sorry for the phrase "game changer," I really hate that! Not sure why you think I didn't want feedback.. Feedback is exactly what I sent it out for! I just have to make sure that I listen to everyone, as well as trying to figure out if there are actually problems, or if the opinions are simply just opinions. So far, the biggest one was the "lacking low end", which through the testing I did yesterday, I found out is just opinion. Now the question is, do I follow that opinion, or not? As I mentioned earlier, I have just about equal numbers of folks telling me that it's either perfect the way it is, or that it needs more low end. Which way do I go from here? If I do either one, I'm going to alienate the other half. So there is the dilemma. I started out with folks telling me they wanted super flat, super bandwidth converters. I'm certain I delivered on that. Now, I have people telling me that they don't actually like the sound of perfectly flat converters and they want more bottom end. So, again, a dilemma. And the last dilemma is do I make it sound pretty and euphonic, but not be perfectly flat? I'm immediately going to alienate those who want a crystal clear converter, while gaining those who want something more pleasing to the ear, but technically colored. A couple weeks ago, I was pretty excited to be getting done with this, but now I'm really hesitant because I feel like I'm in a no-win situation. So what would you do? I think you should be very proud of yourself it is obviously a very hard thing to do what you done to create a product . Anybody that has ever been in business for themselves know that the difficulty of having a business is not being able to make everybody happy. Ultimately do what you think is best like it's been said before you already had a high-end product worth every penny ! |
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 31, 2015 20:34:59 GMT -6
Release the svartboz as is, it'll be well received, figure out how to make a MKII version with Burlish tone option with a switch as an add on for the "more bottom, less clinical" sound.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 31, 2015 20:40:39 GMT -6
You could offer both and call one Clean Shave and the other Full Beard...
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 31, 2015 20:50:06 GMT -6
You could offer both and call one Clean Shave and the other Full Beard... I want clean/flat D/A, but would be forced to buy full beard on principle. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on May 31, 2015 21:48:15 GMT -6
I still think before you release it that you should rent some of the top converters out there and compare it with them. I'm sure you know some audio guys who can come thru and listen to it in your studio, or even bring it over to their studios and compare. But you haven't reported if you've done that, as far as I can tell. You've only done testing against your built-in soundcard and your SSL Alphalink. Correct me if I'm wrong. You owe it to yourself to hear it compared to other converters with your own ears. who knows, you might hear something that'll make you improve it just a bit more until it's amazeballs. Just sayin'.. I know you want this project finished, but there's gotta be some local guys you can sit down with and listen to their units against yours. Lavry's, PT HDs, Symphonies, Auroras, etc.. If not, it can't be too difficult to pay for an hour of studio time at a spot that has some of those converters if you can't find dudes who will compare it for free.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 1, 2015 0:58:57 GMT -6
I hooked this thing up to my Motu Traveler and am able to clock the motu to the symphony. I will honestly say that for guys that have non-HD compatible interfaces, like RME/MOTU/Old Apollo/Presonus/etc, this box is killer.Regarding the monitor controller, I guess what i would want from a box like this while owning a cheaper interface is to be able to still control the volume of my speakers from my interface's control features. The motu has a mix level knob on the front. Obviously it has no bearing on the SPDIF signal being sent out, but just imagine if it did. Connect the Svartacus DAC to your interface via SPDIF, keep controlling your level via the digital volume knob on the interface. Great sounding DAC and no need to buy a separate piece of gear to control the volume, since only the SPDIF signal is being attenuated. svart, since volume attenuation is just multiplication of two floats, and the SPDIF signal is just this, basically, wouldn't it be possible to make a board that just multiplies each SPDIF data packet's audio sample by the attenuation amount before it hits your DAC chip? You'd need another pair of push-buttons to step thru the attenuation amount, and an update to your LCD so it showed the volume level... That might mess your whole board design up, tho. But it should be pretty easy to multiply the Audio Sample values in the SPDIF stream before they reach the actually conversion chip, no? Chuck |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 1, 2015 6:14:04 GMT -6
dandeurloo, can you tell us more about that mod?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 1, 2015 9:05:12 GMT -6
Hey Chuck - the Motu is an interface, right? Can you use that as the interface to the computer and slave it to the Svart clock? That could be a PITA though...not having the MOTU software mixer, etc.
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Post by svart on Jun 1, 2015 9:09:22 GMT -6
As is the the Svart box will smoke most interface AD and DA out there and a ton of older Highend AD/DA's. So, it is already a really great sounding unit and it is easily well worth the original asking price. I am by no means the standard of what is a perfect AD / DA. I have done a lot of time comparing head to head a lot of gear. Doing those comparisons shaped/shapes my opinions on what I prefer. In one of those recent comparisons with my RM Superbeast and a unit a friend of mine built, I noticed the stock Superbeast was lacking a little bottom and was a little less 3d then his. (His DAC is the most musical and effortless sounding DAC I have heard.) I went home and modded one side of the DAC and started to compare the stock Superbeast to the modded version. I used known great sounding mixes in different genres. It took me about 5 mins to clearly hear that the mod sounded better with no negative side effects. Pretty easy. I'm preparing a unit for A/B and nulling tests with your mods. I'll have some files and graphs hopefully this week that will tell us what is going on. |
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 1, 2015 10:37:21 GMT -6
Hey Chuck - the Motu is an interface, right? Can you use that as the interface to the computer and slave it to the Svart clock? That could be a PITA though...not having the MOTU software mixer, etc. Yes, it is, and yes I did. It's suuuper easy to set up, actually. Honestly, if this Svart box was available years ago, before I upgraded to the symphony, I would've kept using the MOTU and just bought this. It sounds great in it's current state. I think my opinion is grounded in the fact that I've been using the symphony for 3 years and haven't used anything else. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 1, 2015 10:54:07 GMT -6
^^This^^, with all due respect to the Symphony, this is a very telling statement about the sound quality of Svart's box !
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Jun 1, 2015 11:03:38 GMT -6
IF ANYONE HAS HI-RES AUDIO FILES, PLEASE PM ME LINKS TO THEM SO I CAN CONTINUE LISTENING.
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