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Post by swurveman on Oct 23, 2014 9:36:48 GMT -6
Hey guys,
I am new to using NS10's and am using them along with a pair of Adam AX7's with a sub. Yesterday, I was in the studio with the guy I share it with who owns the two sets of speakers. I played him a mix with a Nile Rogers type electric guitar part which sounded perfect in the mix on the Adam speakers, but stuck out on the NS10's. He told me that he would "split the difference" between what he heard from the NS10's and what he heard from the Adam speakers.
So, my question is: What is your method when you hear differences in the midrange between your NS10's and your other speakers. I know NS10's have a +5 dB boost around 2K. I'm not quite sure with how to deal with it when comparing the midrange in my mixes between the NS10's and the Adam's. So, I'm hoping to get some feedback.
Thanks to anybody who replies.
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 23, 2014 13:49:57 GMT -6
Well that's basically what they do.... you mix on them and get it sounding as best you can and then flip to your adams, car, little speakers etc. and see how it translates. You're not going to get a lot of sub off them, but they do let you know what's going on in the transient response and that's what will help you get to a good punchy mix. Proacs might be better for you, those are kind of a balance between those two IMO.
My advice, just sit in the studio and listen to a ton of songs for as long as you can to get how they sound burned in your head, you'll hear differences in commercial mixes when you flip between those two sets of speakers, but what should happen is a loss of low end, more focused upper mids, and almost a shrill kind of sound, but not really, it's like it's almost shrill but it's not. That's kind of the beauty of them and something you have to remember when mixing on them, get your mix to where it's close to being a little shrill and you're in the right area. These days I'd say it'd be good to pair a sub with them, I did at the old studio and I would dial just enough in so I could hear the lower octaves of where the NS10's would stop. It's best if you can find a sub with a crossover and run sine tones through the NS10's and when the lows start to dissapear take note of that frequency and dial the sub to start taking over just a little above it, then if you have the ability to run a sweep in the room you can adjust the level of the sub until you get a consistent across the lower spectrum. If they are to the point where they are killing you in those upper mids you can rotate the tweeter out a bit, that's why in a lot of pictures in studios folks run them close together and almost pointing straight forward and not toed in much.
Anyway, not sure if that's what you were looking for, just my experience with those speakers.
Best of luck!
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2014 7:40:22 GMT -6
Ok, I've been using my NS-10's a lot more lately. Here's my method.
Listen to a well mixed song or two while setting things up in the studio
Bring up my mix, drums first. A/B between the professional mix and my mix. Notice how the low end is completely different on my mix.
Curse.
Bring all the faders down except the kick. Start turning knobs. Notice that what I thought was a good mic position, in fact, wasn't. Vow to do it differently next time.
Curse again, maybe get some rye.
Mess with the knobs some more, get something similar in overall tone/vibe. Start doing this to the other drums.
Move on to the bass, twiddle knobs and stuff.
Notice how my bass has zero definition and low end compared to the pro mix, even though I listen to my mixes and they seem super dark and bass heavy. Must be that pesky lack of low end on NS10's. Resolve to start tracking through them as well because my recorded sound has bass too low for a good recording and not enough in the low mids to be of use.
Drink rye and cuss some more.
Split the bass into high/low tracks and EQ/compress each differently so I can actually hear the bass on the NS-10's. If you can hear the bass on NS-10's then you have a good range for recording. Most professional recordings don't have much below 80-100hz because they know that most systems (ipods and stuff) can't reproduce it anyway. Tricks are used to fool your ear into hearing bass extension.
Employ bass tricks, Missing fundamental 1.0 and Distortion 2.1.
Bask in the glory that is what I think I just did. Compare to the professional mix.
Scream and cry.
Start on guitars. Pull up faders, get good balance to my ears, compare with professional mix.
Realize that what I think is good and what I hear are almost opposites when compared directly, but when listened to separately, I think my first mix should be the same.
This is why you never solo stuff. Gotta remember that next time, although I keep saying that and never really follow it.
Decide to work on vocals instead of guitars, just so I don't get "throwing things" mad.
Pull up vocals and listen.
Remember that I kept telling the vocalist to "STOP FUCKING MOVING AROUND WHILE SINGING".
Apply 12db of compression through 2 different compressors just to get a reasonably smooth output on this singer.
Listen again.. Goddamn it, I should have used the other mic. I knew I should have when we compared the mics on his voice, but I thought this had a little more character. Why did I listen to myself? Why didn't I just go with my instinct?
Sweep the EQ looking for that horrible nasal frequency. Found it, right in the middle of the vocal range. Damn. There goes a solid midrange.. Again.
There's that headache again.
Is it the rye, or the anger?
Oh yeah, it's the NS10 headache that you get from using them more than 15 minutes at a time.
Decide to switch to the other monitors. Switch them.
Listen to how much better the mix sounds now that NS10's were used.
That's why I put up with them. They work.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2014 7:48:34 GMT -6
And a word of warning. Listen softly on NS-10's. Not only do they drill through your ears at higher levels, but I've found that the softer you listen, the less the box resonance interferes with the low end. You get less of that boxy BOOM and a better overall tone.
I've thought about lining mine with heavy mastic to stop the vibrations but I'm afraid I'll lose the mojo.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 24, 2014 8:15:55 GMT -6
Too much svart, you're crackin' me up.
I used NS 10's every day for a decade and don't miss them at all now. I just learned to translate using a different speaker.
I'm using Adam A7X's now, and they too can fool you in the low end. I actually cut the bass volume on the back of them, so that when I finally hear enough bass, it has an average amount of bass on other speakers. In a way, it's the same thing as with the NS10's, only the Adam's give you more detail and a more natural high end.
It's good to go back and forth between different speakers. I check my mixes on my home system, and it often sucks, so I go back and adjust. My most common problem is getting a full bass, and a good clean and loud volume level when I faux master for putting tracks online. I too use benchmark mixes to compare to. Often I check between Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", and Ryan Adams' "Two". Lovette's track is a singer/songwriter vocal mic masterpiece, and Adam's track is a good way to check levels and width, although Adam's mixes are often quite shrill.
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Post by svart on Oct 24, 2014 8:29:07 GMT -6
I've come full circle with the NS10. I'm back to them after years of realizing that it wasn't the monitors screwing up mixes, it was just me. They sound terrible and are fatiguing, but damn if they don't make good mixes. It's such a love/hate relationship.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 24, 2014 8:52:07 GMT -6
With NS10's I found the amp running them made a huge difference in how fatiguing they are. I forget the other model, but I first used a Yamaha amp, then an Adcom 200 W. amp, then switched to something higher end, I forget, Crown maybe, and wow, what an improvement it was.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 24, 2014 8:55:33 GMT -6
Too much svart, you're crackin' me up. I used NS 10's every day for a decade and don't miss them at all now. I just learned to translate using a different speaker. I'm using Adam A7X's now, and they too can fool you in the low end. I actually cut the bass volume on the back of them, so that when I finally hear enough bass, it has an average amount of bass on other speakers. In a way, it's the same thing as with the NS10's, only the Adam's give you more detail and a more natural high end. It's good to go back and forth between different speakers. I check my mixes on my home system, and it often sucks, so I go back and adjust. My most common problem is getting a full bass, and a good clean and loud volume level when I faux master for putting tracks online. I too use benchmark mixes to compare to. Often I check between Lyle Lovette's "Road to Ensenada", and Ryan Adams' "Two". Lovette's track is a singer/songwriter vocal mic masterpiece, and Adam's track is a good way to check levels and width, although Adam's mixes are often quite shrill. is probably a function of the space you have them in, are they close to a wall or corners? thats why they incorporate 1/2 and 1/4 space switches, to roll off the bass to counter less than ideal room acoustics. |
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 24, 2014 9:18:46 GMT -6
My favorite method with NS-10's was to set up a line of pencils on top of the Uptown Moving faders and set the software to "launch".
First one to pierce a woofer wins!
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 24, 2014 10:34:24 GMT -6
My favorite method with NS-10's was to set up a line of pencils on top of the Uptown Moving faders and set the software to "launch". First one to pierce a woofer wins! lol, when i saw JW posted to the right of the main page of this thread title, i thought, "hmmm, i wonder what jims "method" of destruction will be?" lol, sure enough... 8) |
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Post by drbill on Oct 24, 2014 10:40:46 GMT -6
Too much svart, you're crackin' me up. I used NS 10's every day for a decade and don't miss them at all now. I just learned to translate using a different speaker. This. I honestly can't even listen to a pair anymore. Hate em. I ended up hating to listen to music after using them so much. That changed the day I sold em, and I wondered why it took me so long to realize it..... But for the OP - if you must use them, you have to learn them over time. No different than any other speaker. They aren't magic - just a consumer bookshelf speaker from the 80's when there weren't many other options. They work for some, don't work for others. Same as any other speaker. Once you learn them, you can mix on them. The only caveat - bottom end. They are sorely lacking in that dept.. Hopefully your other speakers can help out there. Also, get a BIG power amp 250-300 watts to power them. The older Yamaha power amps are great as are Bryston's and some Haflers. They sound and respond much better when overpowered. The absolute BEST I ever heard them was when they were powered by some high end Pacific Innovative Mono Blocks. Literally transformed them, but I couldn't afford 3-4k+ of power for them. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Oct 24, 2014 11:11:09 GMT -6
ahh, you triggered my memory drbill, I used a Hafler amp when I had NS10's.
Tony, you're right, I'm forced to work in a corner right now, and compensate with the speaker settings.
It was really the success of certain mixers, like Bob Clearmountain that made the NS10's a must have in an eighties studio, It didn't really matter what the quality was, people were used to them, so studios had to have them. Thankfully, we've all moved on, I think they simply made listening to music unpleasant. A friend offered me an extra pair he had for free, and I said "no thanks". !
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Post by jeromemason on Oct 24, 2014 11:53:40 GMT -6
My favorite method with NS-10's was to set up a line of pencils on top of the Uptown Moving faders and set the software to "launch". First one to pierce a woofer wins! Chuckle Chuckle  |
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Post by swurveman on Oct 26, 2014 10:35:43 GMT -6
Thanks for your input guys. I know they are controversial, but it is fun to join the parade and see what all the fuss is about. I'll put (most of) your suggestions to work.  |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 26, 2014 12:59:54 GMT -6
The low end only makes sense to me when they are on a console meter bridge.
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