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Post by svart on Oct 20, 2014 7:34:50 GMT -6
So, I'm pretty sure that every musician has their own "studio" now and if they don't, they will.
Owning a couple low-mid level mics and a macbook and some interface with integrated preamps between 2-8 inputs and put in a spare bedroom is now the official definition of a studio. It's settled. No debate.
I'm also sick to death of every musician going online and reading all the armchair engineer shit and then reading right over the years of dedication it takes to try to run a decent studio and only taking away that others make it look easy, so it should be easy.
A guy came to my studio yesterday. he came along with the band I'm recording because they needed someone with a higher voice that could sing some harmonies. Fine. Whatever. Dude can belt it out.
Anyway, he's eager to impress and above all I can tell he wants something from me. He keeps hovering around and trying to get into every conversation.
About a hour into the session he's taking a break while another sings. He finally works up the courage to ask me..
"Hey man, I want to build a studio, can I pay you to help me build it and then build me some gear? I follow your studio on Facebook and I want to make one just like yours!"
Being in no mood for this bullshit, I turn and immediate snap at him.. "Dude, why would I do that? If I did that for every person that asks me to do that, I'd be out of customers and out of fucking business."
The truth is that I've helped 3 people build personal studios and they've turned around and gone commercial with them, each one taking potential customers away from me, and I helped that happen.
Imagine how sick that makes me feel..
Anyway, dude thought I was joking. He laughed it off. I told him I wasn't.
He then turned around and said that he'd pay me to make a list of gear he should go buy. Blood boiling, so I ignore him and his request. I just go back to giving direction to the person at the mic.
Stuff like this is just unbelievable.
Anyway, that's just the latest in another string of networking with bands where 80% of them tell me that they don't want to come to my studio since they "have their own studio where they record themselves and their friends".
I'm getting so sick of it all again. My mixing is getting better by the day but the client base is thin, lackluster and unwilling to pay real money and it's only getting worse by the day.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 20, 2014 10:41:33 GMT -6
I love cruising craigslist and seeing "Recording Studio Sale". It's almost always a small studio desk, M-box, Blue Spark, mic stand, pop filter, and a couple cables...listed at retail prices or more. Really? This equals a "recording studio"?
Plenty of ads out there promoting their similarly set up "studio" too.
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Post by svart on Oct 20, 2014 12:54:34 GMT -6
Tons of them around here like that too. It's a slow demise. The authentic studios around here that were losing clients to the "GC studio" plague either raised their rates, cut their rates and lost money, or closed altogether.
This had the effect of driving even more people away from authentic studios as the rates became too high, or the studio who had decent rates closed down.
Now almost every one of the clients that I've had have asked me what gear they should go buy for their "home studio".
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Post by winetree on Oct 20, 2014 15:28:11 GMT -6
Tell them to buy a "Playschool" cassette recorder with the built in mic.
See what they say.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 21, 2014 7:51:02 GMT -6
I know you've had some bad luck in this regard, but IME most of those guys will have disappointing results when it comes time to mix. So they might end up tracking themselves, but paying someone else to mix.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 21, 2014 7:56:30 GMT -6
I love cruising craigslist and seeing "Recording Studio Sale". It's almost always a small studio desk, M-box, Blue Spark, mic stand, pop filter, and a couple cables...listed at retail prices or more. Really? This equals a "recording studio"? Plenty of ads out there promoting their similarly set up "studio" too. You're forgetting the most critical elements of a pro studio... the Presonus tubepre and krk rockit 5's. |
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Post by svart on Oct 21, 2014 8:05:49 GMT -6
I know you've had some bad luck in this regard, but IME most of those guys will have disappointing results when it comes time to mix. So they might end up tracking themselves, but paying someone else to mix. You would think so, but the overwhelming lot of them tend to have too much "sweat equity" in it to see it for what it is. They think that simply putting huge amounts of effort into something has made it better than simply paying someone else to do it. I think it's really just an ego thing, that they can't even tell how lacking it is due to how much pride they have over "doing it all". I don't want to be negative on putting effort into something, because I've worked with bands that don't put nearly enough effort into things.. I just think that they get too caught up in the moment to step back and decide to seek professional help. I think it's more of the mindset these days, that to do something right, it has to be done by yourself and that nobody else would ever put the amount of love and time into it as they would. I generally follow the bands that I try to recruit for the studio, and I listen to their work afterwards to measure myself and what I would have done. Every now and then a band will have a really good recording they've done themselves, I can't lie about that. Most of the time, though, they don't have a good recording, but they are so proud of it that nobody could tell them otherwise, even if they wanted to. Some times they even make excuses for it later. One band told me that they "didn't want to sound too produced" after they put out their CD, but when I was talking to them before they started recording, all the sample songs they said they wanted to sound like were highly produced songs/bands/albums. It's those times that I feel bad for the band. |
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Post by swurveman on Oct 21, 2014 8:44:34 GMT -6
I think that for many musicians in bands, unless you point out the differences in a professional mix compared to an amateur one they can't discern the difference. This is particularly true as the medium they are listening on is more and more attached to a computer with lower resolution and ear buds. It is low and low mid frequencies where pro mixers really shine imo. And there is always some guy in his room with a computer and plugins who will mix the band for free, persuading them that they can achieve what CLA could on their mixes with plugins instead of hardware. After all, he's got CLA's gear and presets, right?
The best way to combat this imo is to have a shootout, where you do one mix and the guy in his room does one mix, with the understanding that (a) you get to play both mixes side by side where you get to point out the differences in your studio, and (b) you get paid for your one mix and subsequent mixes if they agree your mix is superior. If you can't produce better results you don't deserve the business. If you do produce better results and they go the cheap route anyway, at least they've learned something. If they're really devoted, they'll be back.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 21, 2014 8:44:45 GMT -6
It's true that many people including musicians don't know a good mix from a bad one... And emotional attachment to a crappy mix will often win out even when comparing with a superior mix of the same song. I've run into this every time I've done a remix for someone.... Although saner heads sometimes prevail.... Once the grieving period for the old mix is over.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 21, 2014 8:52:54 GMT -6
I've also had success doing remixes that don't stray too far from the original mix, but improve on the sonics and balance. This can be helpful to overcome the emotional attachment, and make people feel a little better about the work they did on the original mix.... too much psychology in this business.
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Post by svart on Oct 21, 2014 9:03:09 GMT -6
I don't necessarily want to mix other's work. unfortunately I'm in a place where I find that clients willing to hire a studio of my standing (very very low on the pole) would only give me tracks recorded with MXL mics and an MBOX of some kind. I just couldn't produce something out of that, that I could be proud of.
I've done it in the past and we always end up retracking things and then stuff starts sounding strange with good quality parts and then other bad quality parts all fighting in the mix.
If someone had really well tracked material to work with I'd love to work with them, but the majority of the bands around here don't.
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Post by mdmitch2 on Oct 21, 2014 9:23:34 GMT -6
I don't necessarily want to mix other's work. unfortunately I'm in a place where I find that clients willing to hire a studio of my standing (very very low on the pole) would only give me tracks recorded with MXL mics and an MBOX of some kind. I just couldn't produce something out of that, that I could be proud of. I've done it in the past and we always end up retracking things and then stuff starts sounding strange with good quality parts and then other bad quality parts all fighting in the mix. If someone had really well tracked material to work with I'd love to work with them, but the majority of the bands around here don't. Very true... I've been fortunate to work with some folks who had invested in good equipment for tracking, so the results were pretty decent, but that's probably not typical. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 27, 2014 8:18:40 GMT -6
I feel your pain on this. I know lots of local studios here in this area in the same situation. I try not to be part of the problem for them. Word gets out pretty quick when you have a high end room even if you don't want it to. The only people I record are local artists whom I approach because I like their music and want to work with them on an artistic level. So making money for me is not a consideration. When asked to record people, I most always politely tell them my room is for my personal use only and then give them the name of one of my studio buddies to try and get them some work.
The low end mbox home studios is more a form of entertainment than anything. About the same as everyone buying Nintendos in the 80's. Most people just buy a few things to pass some time until they figure out they can't play for shit and nothing they do sounds even close to a real record. That's when Craigslist gets the "studio" sale.
Just keep putting out good records like your doing and you will get some business.
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2014 9:52:07 GMT -6
Thanks Cowboy.
You know, it's not just about gear and technical knowledge. Another thing that seems to get my goat a lot is that artists tend to be it two camps, those that don't believe anything you say, and those that expect you to fix everything in post.
I mean, there is a lot of intuition that you gain after doing things a while, like knowing that you're going to cut lows on guitars to make room for bass. You instinctually set your mics and amps settings with a little less low end than normal only to have the artist continually criticize that decision throughout the rest of the tracking.
"it sounds weak, we should have left the settings where I use them live"
And later before mixing even begins..
"It still lacks that low end, can we redo all the guitar tracks with MY settings?"
And during mixing, with the low end BOOMING off the charts they still complain. Nobody else thinks it's a problem and A/Bing with professional mixes sounds pretty comparable, but it seems to just be a pissing contest to get what they think they want.
Finally I acquiesced and tracked a super dark heavy track to add in with the other guitars. It sounded fine by itself, but mud city in the mix without EQing out all the low end.
I took it back out and went on with mixing.
The complaining guitarist LOVED the mix. He thanked me for letting him put some low end in the guitars.
I told him that I took it out because it was too much.
He emailed me back telling me that "on second thought, they were still too light, not heavy enough".
I mean, c'mon, seriously?
And then I have had some folks who are OK with everything.
"that sounds great!"
And then mix time comes...
"why don't I sound like (insert megaartist here)??"
And somehow they expect that I should turn them into someone else with completely different tone and style..
So I suppose that a lot of the business is about handling people, and it's almost important as knowing the gear well enough to be efficient and fast at getting sounds.
I suppose I'm still learning lots on both sides of that coin.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 27, 2014 10:43:00 GMT -6
Yeah, I can't deal with that bullshit and I honestly don't know how you guys that run studios for profit can deal with it. I'm the kind of guy who tell them to hit the sidewalk if they started that stuff with me. Which is why I could never do what you do. I chose to work closely with a local artist once whom I thought had some potential. What I found was, I not anyone else (including some huge studio cats such as Brent Mason and others) could please her.
I no longer work with her. They practically beg me and I won't. I refuse to make this thing I love into a grind. But I also have the luxury to do that having a solid career in another field. I really feel sorry for you guys trying to make a living at this and you get my respect for it.
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Post by mobeach on Oct 27, 2014 10:43:54 GMT -6
Not every musician, in my area Cover Bands are the big thing, they have no interest in any kind of home studio gear. The musicians that focus on original material (like me) have some modest gear and software platforms to lay down their ideas. But when I see one putting out a CD of decent quality they go to one of the ProTools HD studios that have some decent gear. For the most part though original artists have to fund everything with $$ from their day job, because this area isn't a good market for original material. And since they fund projects with their day job money they're unlikely to got to a pro level studio for a project where they're only going to sell 40-60 CD's to their buddies.
For any lower level original band to make any money they have to travel extensively, Boston, NYC and everything in between, and if you're working a steady day job that doesn't happen much.
I can see your point in this thread, but the small market recording artist don't have many choices either, so they gradually build their own studios.
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Post by mobeach on Oct 27, 2014 10:46:49 GMT -6
I think that for many musicians in bands, unless you point out the differences in a professional mix compared to an amateur one they can't discern the difference. This is particularly true as the medium they are listening on is more and more attached to a computer with lower resolution and ear buds. It is low and low mid frequencies where pro mixers really shine imo. And there is always some guy in his room with a computer and plugins who will mix the band for free, persuading them that they can achieve what CLA could on their mixes with plugins instead of hardware. After all, he's got CLA's gear and presets, right? The best way to combat this imo is to have a shootout, where you do one mix and the guy in his room does one mix, with the understanding that (a) you get to play both mixes side by side where you get to point out the differences in your studio, and (b) you get paid for your one mix and subsequent mixes if they agree your mix is superior. If you can't produce better results you don't deserve the business. If you do produce better results and they go the cheap route anyway, at least they've learned something. If they're really devoted, they'll be back. I don't think having a shootout will change anyones mind, they have simply come to the conclusion that they're going to have an inferior product, if it's a roots rock or post grunge band it doesn't much matter anyway  |
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2014 11:43:38 GMT -6
Yeah, I can't deal with that bullshit and I honestly don't know how you guys that run studios for profit can deal with it. I'm the kind of guy who tell them to hit the sidewalk if they started that stuff with me. Which is why I could never do what you do. I chose to work closely with a local artist once whom I thought had some potential. What I found was, I not anyone else (including some huge studio cats such as Brent Mason and others) could please her. I no longer work with her. They practically beg me and I won't. I refuse to make this thing I love into a grind. But I also have the luxury to do that having a solid career in another field. I really feel sorry for you guys trying to make a living at this and you get my respect for it. Well, don't think I don't appreciate any respect you might throw my way, but I don't make a living recording! I'm an electrical designer just trying to get a studio off the ground on the side. I can't say I've even broken even in all the work I've done. The studio world is a tough, tough place to be these days and I think we both respect the folks really trying to make a living doing it. |
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Post by svart on Oct 27, 2014 11:51:15 GMT -6
Not every musician, in my area Cover Bands are the big thing, they have no interest in any kind of home studio gear. The musicians that focus on original material (like me) have some modest gear and software platforms to lay down their ideas. But when I see one putting out a CD of decent quality they go to one of the ProTools HD studios that have some decent gear. For the most part though original artists have to fund everything with $$ from their day job, because this area isn't a good market for original material. And since they fund projects with their day job money they're unlikely to got to a pro level studio for a project where they're only going to sell 40-60 CD's to their buddies. For any lower level original band to make any money they have to travel extensively, Boston, NYC and everything in between, and if you're working a steady day job that doesn't happen much. I can see your point in this thread, but the small market recording artist don't have many choices either, so they gradually build their own studios. That's kind of my point. My studio is small, but carries gear that only the big ones tend to carry. I'm trying to offer more for less and even offer pretty low rates compared to "professional" studios. Even with those low rates and a pretty good price/performance ratio, the artists still argue that they'd rather do it themselves. I used to think it was all about costs, but they'll still spend more money on their own gear than they would coming to the studio. I also thought that maybe it was an investment thing, where they would use the gear for years and years, but I find that they'll still upgrade and add to their gear constantly, so they also spend more money doing this than just coming to the studio a couple of times over the years. |
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Post by mobeach on Oct 27, 2014 14:22:48 GMT -6
Not every musician, in my area Cover Bands are the big thing, they have no interest in any kind of home studio gear. The musicians that focus on original material (like me) have some modest gear and software platforms to lay down their ideas. But when I see one putting out a CD of decent quality they go to one of the ProTools HD studios that have some decent gear. For the most part though original artists have to fund everything with $$ from their day job, because this area isn't a good market for original material. And since they fund projects with their day job money they're unlikely to got to a pro level studio for a project where they're only going to sell 40-60 CD's to their buddies. For any lower level original band to make any money they have to travel extensively, Boston, NYC and everything in between, and if you're working a steady day job that doesn't happen much. I can see your point in this thread, but the small market recording artist don't have many choices either, so they gradually build their own studios. That's kind of my point. My studio is small, but carries gear that only the big ones tend to carry. I'm trying to offer more for less and even offer pretty low rates compared to "professional" studios. Even with those low rates and a pretty good price/performance ratio, the artists still argue that they'd rather do it themselves. I used to think it was all about costs, but they'll still spend more money on their own gear than they would coming to the studio. I also thought that maybe it was an investment thing, where they would use the gear for years and years, but I find that they'll still upgrade and add to their gear constantly, so they also spend more money doing this than just coming to the studio a couple of times over the years. I think it all depends on your area and what the market is there. Are you near a big city? Start up a facebook page for your studio if you haven't already, you need to get the word out about what you're offering. It's never easy starting up a music based business, whether you're a band, FOS engineer or studio engineer. My big break almost came about 5 years ago when Plymouth Rock Studios was going to be built here, it was going to be Hollywood East, I had a gopher job all lined up in the sound design dept but the whole project was moved. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2014 15:38:07 GMT -6
So, I'm pretty sure that every musician has their own "studio" now and if they don't, they will. Owning a couple low-mid level mics and a macbook and some interface with integrated preamps between 2-8 inputs and put in a spare bedroom is now the official definition of a studio. It's settled. No debate. I'm also sick to death of every musician going online and reading all the armchair engineer shit and then reading right over the years of dedication it takes to try to run a decent studio and only taking away that others make it look easy, so it should be easy. A guy came to my studio yesterday. he came along with the band I'm recording because they needed someone with a higher voice that could sing some harmonies. Fine. Whatever. Dude can belt it out. Anyway, he's eager to impress and above all I can tell he wants something from me. He keeps hovering around and trying to get into every conversation. About a hour into the session he's taking a break while another sings. He finally works up the courage to ask me.. "Hey man, I want to build a studio, can I pay you to help me build it and then build me some gear? I follow your studio on Facebook and I want to make one just like yours!" Being in no mood for this bullshit, I turn and immediate snap at him.. "Dude, why would I do that? If I did that for every person that asks me to do that, I'd be out of customers and out of fucking business." The truth is that I've helped 3 people build personal studios and they've turned around and gone commercial with them, each one taking potential customers away from me, and I helped that happen. Imagine how sick that makes me feel.. Anyway, dude thought I was joking. He laughed it off. I told him I wasn't. He then turned around and said that he'd pay me to make a list of gear he should go buy. Blood boiling, so I ignore him and his request. I just go back to giving direction to the person at the mic. Stuff like this is just unbelievable. Anyway, that's just the latest in another string of networking with bands where 80% of them tell me that they don't want to come to my studio since they "have their own studio where they record themselves and their friends". I'm getting so sick of it all again. My mixing is getting better by the day but the client base is thin, lackluster and unwilling to pay real money and it's only getting worse by the day. Hey dude, you do good work and you know what is REALLY worth paying for? A guy at the controls you can trust. I'm now a Macbook/interface guy but I generally know what I'm doing with it. Gear won't translate into good music and that's something that you can't just buy at Guitar Centre. About the client base being thin, if it's really badly thinning out, go out and get active in the local scene, find out who does what. This year I contacted a local zine and recorded 11 songs for free from 11 different artists and the magazine released it. Time consuming yes but I haven't had a day off in months. I have one slot open for the rest of the year and if it doesn't fill I'll take the time to do my own bands stuff, on that note, are you gigging? Approaching a group of musicians from the standpoint of another broke ass band can sometimes make you an immediate ally. You may not want to go this route but it did work for me quite well. |
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Post by mobeach on Oct 27, 2014 16:24:13 GMT -6
Yeah people have to know you're there, find out where the bands are performing original music and get in with those bands. They can help get the word out. You definitely can't be afraid to underbid in todays business world.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 27, 2014 17:00:59 GMT -6
I think that for many musicians in bands, unless you point out the differences in a professional mix compared to an amateur one they can't discern the difference. This is particularly true as the medium they are listening on is more and more attached to a computer with lower resolution and ear buds. It is low and low mid frequencies where pro mixers really shine imo. And there is always some guy in his room with a computer and plugins who will mix the band for free, persuading them that they can achieve what CLA could on their mixes with plugins instead of hardware. After all, he's got CLA's gear and presets, right?
The best way to combat this imo is to have a shootout, where you do one mix and the guy in his room does one mix, with the understanding that (a) you get to play both mixes side by side where you get to point out the differences in your studio, and (b) you get paid for your one mix and subsequent mixes if they agree your mix is superior. If you can't produce better results you don't deserve the business. If you do produce better results and they go the cheap route anyway, at least they've learned something. If they're really devoted, they'll be back. just make sure you install loud, intermittent beeps in there, otherwise they'll take your one mix and tell everyone "thats the one I worked hardest on" lol |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2014 8:04:23 GMT -6
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Post by ben on Nov 2, 2014 21:59:22 GMT -6
Tons of them around here like that too. It's a slow demise. The authentic studios around here that were losing clients to the "GC studio" plague either raised their rates, cut their rates and lost money, or closed altogether. This had the effect of driving even more people away from authentic studios as the rates became too high, or the studio who had decent rates closed down. Now almost every one of the clients that I've had have asked me what gear they should go buy for their "home studio". Years ago, there was a studio in Providence called "Sound Station 7". The place was beautiful and chock full of the best gear. API console, tons of outboard, a mic'ed up drum tower, and even a 2" 8 track! The space was designed by Frank Manzella, etc, etc, etc. They were quoting rates of $85, which was pretty darn cheap, now or then. They closed, and they were the best game in town. I tell people who want to record at home, "just because you buy a really nice hammer, doesn't make you a carpenter". The same people that ask, "what gear should I buy" are the same ones that come back two months later and ask why they can't get the sound they are looking for... smh. |
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