Burl, Symphony, Apollo Shootout With Identical Takes

True... I'm on an imac though so I guess I'd either have to use usb or spring for the thunderbolt option. More $$. Did you do the Symphony - Apollo - back to Symphony dance?  

I've personally never needed more than 2 channels of i/o! Most of these interfaces are way overkill for me, like owning a 4000 sq ft home and mostly hanging in the kitchen:) Good to know though.. thanks

So, FYI...I finally downloaded these. The Apollo is missing. But, of the two still up, doing nothing, the Burl is the no brainer. I reduced it's gain by .75db. The RMS was 1db higher and peaks were .5 higher....so, I just met the two in the middle. So some thoughts....FWIW.

Anyone who wants to hear some rather nasty saturation just needs to flip the phase and go to the peak the loudest "MY" about 2/3rds of the way through. The Burl sizzles and crackles on that word where the symphony's clean.

Now...as soon as I heard the difference in low end girth, though, I immediately reached into my digital toolbox and grabbed two Neve input channel emulations. I would venture it would be tough for anyone to tell me the difference in several different options I've used in the past to increase the low end girth (different from amount, which is a simple EQ tweak)...Point being for MJB, or anyone who can't afford a Burl, and wants the "second best" of that sound....is not a different converter without a class A line amp. It's a digital model of a ClassA line amp.

But, of course--that's exactly what Cowboy meant when he said he din't have to slather on so much stuff. Or at least that's how I interpreted and responded above--most gear is a workflow enhancement. It's more forgiving. It gets us from A to B quicker. But, getting to B isn't the exclusively available via of more and better boutique gear.

I'm actually pretty surprised at how you had to get to -1dbfs to get that to crunch up. Not that vocals are transient heavy stuff...but, it does make me wonder if it will really have a significant cumulative tracking effect. Since it basically reduced the dynamic range by like .5db recording at nearly fullscale. That certainly doesn't deserve the reputation for saturating and clipping waveforms.

I am looking forward to my coming personal shootout. Mine won't include a Symphony, though. API A2D and the B2. Two DIFFERENT class A line amps+conversion. One just happens to have some mic pres that kick ass on amps...the API offering the choice to hit the transformers or go straight to the ADC. I'll be sure to post some clips. I thank Cowboy for posting these.

Waves NLS Neve. Drive it half way, then pull the output down 2DB.

I don't like the product. It's actually laughable as a whole...but, there's some magic in the Neve CHANNEL...for vocals with digitilitus. Try different channels. Slate's Neve works, and sometimes does better, but you HAVE to follow it with a linear phase HPF. It creates such sub 70hz garbage. I rarely use it for that reason. If you don't own the NLS, don't buy it for that unless it's silly cheap...that one channel I've found that ONE use for.

Is there a particular type of track you'r lacking details on? Running at double sample rate?

Well, you would need a line amp...with two stages...but, what's the head scratching part?

MJB....want more proof a new chip isn't the answer? The Burl is the same AD chip as in the Digi192s from the year 2001. MOTU's HD192s from the year after. Some EMU and Metric Halo interfaces after that. So if you DO believe in the chip being the determination of conversion quality, Burl is using vintage digital technology, too!

Vp28= 2 stage line amp? In conjunction with "not burl" conversion, comes close? and it seems like a cheaper alternative w/more options than the burl, no?

I think what chucks saying is you get a symphony and a burl(with a 2 stage line amp) instead of alternatively just a burl? 

unless I'm not understanding, which is probable lol!

T

I tried MPX and VEQ for you this evening. The VEQ was closest--I just used FreeG to pump 10db in front of it and another instance to pull 10db off on the other side.

Forget MPX. One trick pony....magic on a snare drum.

You could give that a shot. It's not quite the NLS or VCC+HPF....but, if you own it, give it a shot.

If you don't mind my asking, though...you've made reference to using mostly virtual instruments, no? What about amps? I guess....long way around to asking what are you actually converting from analog into digital that you're unhappy with? I really do think this stuff is all pretty nuanced compared to other factors.

That is one heck of a friend!! From your Waves list I think the r-deesser is great and the bass amps in the GTR plug are highly useable in my opinion. Also the Maserati guitar plug has some clean settings that do something I haven't been able to achieve on my own. Kramer tape, while not being the greatest tape emulation, has a pretty cool slap delay that works for some vox and acoustics. Puigchild is smooth too.

Hey Mark, I had no idea of the cost of plugins when I began recording at home again, around 15 months ago. In fact, I barely understood what a plug in was. It was a return of a favor from a wealthy friend, who's since passed away.

I do use the D-Esser which does work well. I used the CLA bass plug for a while and it wasn't bad, but the IK Multimedia Ampeg bass amp plug went on sale for $39, and it just killed any of the Waves bass rigs. The Ik Ampeg sounds exactly like the Ampeg bass I have, plus it has a few other models, without the noise/hum. I still use the amp 9 out of 10 times. but once in a while it serves the track better to have it be silent, with no amp hiss, so I use just the plug. Sometimes I record with the BA-12, the use the Ampeg BA500 plug to beef things up a little.

I actually like working in the box. I find the flexibility makes me become more creative. I can switch plates on myb EMT-140 reverb in seconds, or recalibrate a tape machine by simply clicking on presets, I can get much more variety of sounds by using multiple instantiations, or printing with UAD plugs.

Popman, I do track electric guitars and bass with amps now, and use my Blackspade mic into for acoustic guitar, slide, harmonium, etc. , all into the Warm Audio ToneBeast.

What I like about the Burl mixes I've heard is the higher resolution of low level detail, and the smoother, wider, punchier bottom. If I can get those two things with a BLA Microclock or the BLA Apollo mod, that would be great. If it could be gotten with the the BLA Sparrow, cool, or the UAD 2192, OK, at least I'd know where to set my sights. And if not, a Burl later on down the road. That's about all I need to feel complete here, other than a new computer, things like more mics would be gravy.

I won't be buying much for a while, so I'll have time to figure out which one is my best move.

I used to write and produce music for radio and TV commercials. I did big budget spots in high end studios, and smaller budget things at home. I had a minimalist system at home, and I still like working that way. I had a Tascam 8 tk, Otari 2 tk. an Allen & Heath board, a Lexicon reverb. Lexicon delay, DBX 166X, a Neumann U87 mic, a drum machine and an Emu Emulator, a Kurzweil keyboard, and that was it. I produced at least 100 local commercials there. So, like popman, being mostly in the box is fine with me, especially with Slate's VBC, which gets me a little of the Burl tone I like.

Will keep that in mind popmann, thanks.

I feel quite close to a good sound now. I'll have to try jumping over one barrier I've imposed on myself. I prefer to just faux master on mixdown, as most tracks are of demo status now. Two tracks I've worked on will be released though, so I'll go the extra mile and try to bounce, and then do a new mastering track, as I don't have enough dsp power to use my Massive Passive plug, and it might be something that helps, I don't know yet. If mixing goes really well, I may forego the last step and send it out to be mastered, if I find I can afford it when it's ready.

Ha! Unfortunately... or fortunately I know that friend too. This thread has suddenly become incriminating  

Martin John Butler I think I have the Ampeg plug, will try that out. I like how easy it is to audition different bass amp sounds and eq curves within GTR though, I'm sure Amplitube nailed it, but I cant seem to get into their gtr emulations very much. I too tried my hand at the commercial world but it was too much hustle and not enough landing spots for me. I hate situations where I feel like the odds are akin to winning the lottery. Still, I was actually forced to mix my own stuff for the first time so I think it was a great learning experience. It's amazing what you can crank out in a day under pressure!