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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 8, 2014 19:28:28 GMT -6
Let the debate begin. In an RGO polite way of coarse.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,099
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Post by ericn on Oct 8, 2014 19:41:48 GMT -6
I have found the triplet LCR2400 Voltage regulator has made a small difference here in KC In Galveston I wouldn't do anything without one! The question should be two part do I need a condition ,and what do I need to solve my problems?
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 8, 2014 19:46:19 GMT -6
balanced power does, it splits supply legs 180* OOP, cancelling any noise present on both rails, filters help, and can hurt depending, most guys don't filter power amps, but do filter all digital devices. IMO clean steady power makes all your stuff work and sound better.
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 8, 2014 19:48:37 GMT -6
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Post by Guitar on Oct 8, 2014 20:22:28 GMT -6
I've used a few DIY X-Hum ground islolator type things, it really does help in cases where you're getting buzz or whatever with a lot of gear in the same room, solved my problem instantly a few times. Like to have a few of these on hand.
I know my rack mount power strips have some sort of conditioning going on with small transformers and other parts on the main AC rails, but I wouldn't know what difference it makes.
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Post by formatcyes on Oct 9, 2014 4:04:44 GMT -6
NO. 99% of the time the mains is clean. A good power supply will handle small fluctuations even 1/2 good one's will be fine. However if you have dirty power welding pant next door or similar for example you may need to do something about it BUT. The only way to stop large spike's is to convert the AC to DC (battery bank) then back to AC for your gear. I use to be an electrician in an ICU where people's live depended on uninterrupted clean power this is how we did it. The backup generator kicking in could cause a spike the battery bank prevented it getting to the sensitive equipment. For audio a power conditioner will generally do nothing.
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Post by popmann on Oct 9, 2014 7:33:59 GMT -6
Well, I think the issue number one with this discussion is using the term "power conditioner"--as the difference in a Rackrider and a balanced power/iso transformer are completely different--and there are MANY shades in between. Battery backup....voltage regulation....900 kinds of filtering that may or may not do anything for your particular brand of noise....
But, the short answer is if you're looking for sonic improvement--this isn't gonna be a ticket. Running an analog mixer, like you do, you'd have to have a new service run to the studio with an iso transformer really, for the draw you need. At best, your noise floor might drop....and your digital gear last a little longer....that's about what you can hope for, IMO/E.
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 8:17:23 GMT -6
Lemme say a few things and then people can decide for themselves. A power conditioner is typically comprised of two things: Transient/surge voltage suppression (TVS, gas arresters, MOVs, etc) Low pass filtering (caps/inductors, etc) The purpose is to add some protection from surges and transients (same as the common power strip) and then filter out any higher order harmonic noise and/or EMI/RFI from the AC line. A balanced power isolator is typically comprised of one thing: A large matching (1:1) toroid transformer. The intended purpose is to transform single phase AC into differential AC. I'm not sure where "balanced" came from, but it's not balanced, it's now differential. There is a BIG difference. So now let me explain each a little better. The power conditioner doesn't change the fundamental AC signal (50/60hz sinewave), but forms a low pass filter just above the fundamental frequency so that any noise above it will be filtered out. While I believe this is a good thing, most modern electronics have plenty of filtering designed into the product. If the unit has a SMPS (switch mode power supply, AKA a switcher) then the additional filtering from the power conditioner means nothing. A SMPS rectifies and then switches the AC into a much higher voltage square wave before cycling the duty cycle to reduce the RMS power to the transformer secondary, before rectification, decoupling and possibly linear regulation. If the design has a linear supply, the input power transformer forms a lossy LC filter, before the transformed AC is rectified and filtered. Better designs will have an EMI/RFI filter built into the AC input like this: Which already incorporates the AC LC filters. HOWEVER.. And here's the kicker.. A majority of noise in a system comes from poor grounding and increased AC line filtering doesn't help as much as it should. Ok, so now for " balanced power".. In the USA, standard wall outlet voltage is 120V/60Hz single phase. ONLY the "hot" (black conductor) is intentionally powered. The "neutral" (or the current return as it truly is) is essentially at "ground" potential and is tied to ground in the fuse box/circuit breaker installed in your house. The "ground" conductor is not for carrying current UNLESS there is an issue with the device plugged into the outlet. It is for safety ONLY. This is why devices that have ground loops are exhibiting a failure, and should be repaired or modified, not jerry-rigged, but I digress for now. So in a device that has a SMPS, differential power means NOTHING again. Same as the filtered AC above, the modification of the AC signal is so extreme that any noise on the input AC is swamped by SMPS switching noise and is then filtered out with the switching hash on the output of the supply. In a linear supply, the input transformer typically does a single-ended to differential conversion between 120VAC and +/-XX VAC on the secondaries. The step down ratio also applies to any signal present on the AC input, so lets say that it's a 12VAC secondary which gives a roughly 10:1 ratio. If AC noise on the power input is 300mV, then it's now 30mV, etc. The input transformer also forms a LPF due to the series inductance of the windings and the shunting parasitic C of the coils/core. It's not going to override nasty hash from a refrigerator, but then again, that's a lot of noise and a PROPER fix would be to use a different circuit altogether. Anyway, you also have rectification and filtering on the linear supply output. If it's properly designed, then you shouldn't have any issues that require external devices. So back to the differential power conditioner.. It's nothing more than a single ended to differential transformation like your power input transformer already does, and works just like your audio signal transformers. Some units also incorporate the same filtering as the generic power conditioners, and this is what I believe does the majority of the AC signal improvement. Any improvement of the AC signal from the matching toroid is done by parasitic filtering and not by the "differential" nature of the output.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Oct 9, 2014 8:27:26 GMT -6
Lemme say a few things and then people can decide for themselves. A power conditioner is typically comprised of two things: Transient/surge voltage suppression (TVS, gas arresters, MOVs, etc) Low pass filtering (caps/inductors, etc) The purpose is to add some protection from surges and transients (same as the common power strip) and then filter out any higher order harmonic noise and/or EMI/RFI from the AC line. A balanced power isolator is typically comprised of one thing: A large matching (1:1) toroid transformer. The intended purpose is to transform single phase AC into differential AC. I'm not sure where "balanced" came from, but it's not balanced, it's now differential. There is a BIG difference. So now let me explain each a little better. The power conditioner doesn't change the fundamental AC signal (50/60hz sinewave), but forms a low pass filter just above the fundamental frequency so that any noise above it will be filtered out. While I believe this is a good thing, most modern electronics have plenty of filtering designed into the product. If the unit has a SMPS (switch mode power supply, AKA a switcher) then the additional filtering from the power conditioner means nothing. A SMPS rectifies and then switches the AC into a much higher voltage square wave before cycling the duty cycle to reduce the RMS power to the transformer secondary, before rectification, decoupling and possibly linear regulation. If the design has a linear supply, the input power transformer forms a lossy LC filter, before the transformed AC is rectified and filtered. Better designs will have an EMI/RFI filter built into the AC input like this: Which already incorporates the AC LC filters. HOWEVER.. And here's the kicker.. A majority of noise in a system comes from poor grounding and increased AC line filtering doesn't help as much as it should. Ok, so now for " balanced power".. In the USA, standard wall outlet voltage is 120V/60Hz single phase. ONLY the "hot" (black conductor) is intentionally powered. The "neutral" (or the current return as it truly is) is essentially at "ground" potential and is tied to ground in the fuse box/circuit breaker installed in your house. The "ground" conductor is not for carrying current UNLESS there is an issue with the device plugged into the outlet. It is for safety ONLY. This is why devices that have ground loops are exhibiting a failure, and should be repaired or modified, not jerry-rigged, but I digress for now. So in a device that has a SMPS, differential power means NOTHING again. Same as the filtered AC above, the modification of the AC signal is so extreme that any noise on the input AC is swamped by SMPS switching noise and is then filtered out with the switching hash on the output of the supply. In a linear supply, the input transformer typically does a single-ended to differential conversion between 120VAC and +/-XX VAC on the secondaries. The step down ratio also applies to any signal present on the AC input, so lets say that it's a 12VAC secondary which gives a roughly 10:1 ratio. If AC noise on the power input is 300mV, then it's now 30mV, etc. The input transformer also forms a LPF due to the series inductance of the windings and the shunting parasitic C of the coils/core. It's not going to override nasty hash from a refrigerator, but then again, that's a lot of noise and a PROPER fix would be to use a different circuit altogether. Anyway, you also have rectification and filtering on the linear supply output. If it's properly designed, then you shouldn't have any issues that require external devices. So back to the differential power conditioner.. It's nothing more than a single ended to differential transformation like your power input transformer already does, and works just like your audio signal transformers. Some units also incorporate the same filtering as the generic power conditioners, and this is what I believe does the majority of the AC signal improvement. Any improvement of the AC signal from the matching toroid is done by parasitic filtering and not by the "differential" nature of the output. Hey svart, I assume that something like this (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/musicians-gear-power-conditioner) isn't helping with anything and only providing multiple outlets that are rack mounted. Is this right? Will something like this harm anything?
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 8:34:21 GMT -6
Hey svart, I assume that something like this (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/accessories/musicians-gear-power-conditioner) isn't helping with anything and only providing multiple outlets that are rack mounted. Is this right? Will something like this harm anything? It looks to have a circuit breaker, and probably at the very least has some MOV devices to catch lightning surges and things like that. Since it's sold as a power conditioner, it probably has some filtering, but how much filtering it has is unknown. You can always add another inline AC filter to the box though.
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 8:41:52 GMT -6
I also forgot to mention that using a "balanced" power isolator needs both line and neutral to have symmetrical impedances to ground, or else significant ground currents can flow, which can actually make the ground loop issues worse and add a layer of danger to the mix.
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Post by Ward on Oct 9, 2014 8:43:45 GMT -6
It's kind of a debate when you consider the facts. There are two things that I always wrestle with, with this. 1. Near elimination of RF interference 2. Increased transformer loads in the studio that create a buzz my telecasters just LOVE to eat like candy... when I track in the control room (most of the time).
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 9, 2014 8:49:35 GMT -6
Hey svart, great post! What about gear that doesn't have the toroid tranny, does balanced(differential) power supply help with those? Also, what about filtering affecting tansient response in hi current amp situations? What's the best way to deal with brown out conditions?
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 8:55:38 GMT -6
It's kind of a debate when you consider the facts. There are two things that I always wrestle with, with this. 1. Near elimination of RF interference 2. Increased transformer loads in the studio that create a buzz my telecasters just LOVE to eat like candy... when I track in the control room (most of the time). 1. RF interference always has an ingress point. A lot of what folks call RF interference is actually intermodulation where a fundamental frequency and a nonlinearity (diodes..) act as RF mixers and downmix into the audio spectrum.. Tubes do this a lot, as do cables with bad grounds or open ends (similar to antenna designs..). Not because the cable allows the RF in, but because the cable wavelength and the nonlinearity form a receiver.. 2. I've found this a couple times, and typically if you turn 45/90 degrees you'll find a null in the field. Otherwise, you have some kind of issue with shielding on something, or in the guitar, and the wavelength/nonlinearity forms another receiver. Isn't electronics great?
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Post by Ward on Oct 9, 2014 9:10:13 GMT -6
Somehow, i knew you'd come in and weigh-in all technical. LOL
I do my best to avoid that as I can't do it as eloquently as you do and come across all better-than. So, I'll leave it to you!
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 9:16:13 GMT -6
Hey svart, great post! What about gear that doesn't have the toroid tranny, does balanced(differential) power supply help with those? Also, what about filtering affecting tansient response in hi current amp situations? What's the best way to deal with brown out conditions? I think it's probably the same for all types of input power transformers. I've used all kinds of transformers for both hobby and paying work and they each have their quirks. Even those of the same type from different manufacturers can act differently in similar situations. Once, I actually did find that using a large E-core matching transformer worked to get rid of a lot of noise from a gas generator. most generators output a "modified" sine wave which is essentially a square wave at 120V P-P. The lossy E-core smoothed the edges of the square enough to stop overheating the transformers in all the equipment that was being powered by the generator. Power transformers do not like square waves! As for non-toroid matching transformers, I'd stay away from them for audio purposes. They can have high leakage currents and large EMI fields. Toroid or bust! I'd also say that if you have a situation that calls for large instantaneous currents, linear transformers are not the way to go. They are pretty slow at current propagation delays. Large and fast currents should either be dealt with at the DC stage with large capacitors and low impedance traces, or very fast Point-of-load regulators. These days, I'm dealing with 10A at 0.9V in some digital supplies for FPGAs I'm designing into products. Some of the peaks during synchronous switching can be very high, into the 30A range for very short periods. I'm using POL regulators and 2x 1uF 0402 caps per power pin.. One design has about 200 decoupling capacitors on the FPGA alone, along with 8 power supplies of various voltage and currents. Anyway, brownouts are probably best dealt with a UPS if they are expected to be any length of time. Very short drops could be handled at the DC level with large banks of bulk cap, but that's probably not feasible to add to a lot of designs. A very large external matching transformer might deal with brownouts or surges if they fairly fast. A very large core will hold a lot of flux and could probably smooth out the brownout/surge fairly well, but it would certainly be up to the current demands of the devices plugged into it and so on.
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Post by svart on Oct 9, 2014 9:21:13 GMT -6
Somehow, i knew you'd come in and weigh-in all technical. LOL I do my best to avoid that as I can't do it as eloquently as you do and come across all better-than. So, I'll leave it to you! Not sure what that means! Anyway, if you get radio interference from your guitar, it's usually coming from the guitar towards the amp, not from the gear out to the guitar, if that makes sense. Single coil pickups are notorious for that kind of stuff. A power conditioner or isolator won't help in that specific instance. If you mean you get a lot of hashy noise and buzz, it could be coming from something like your fridge, which a power conditioner with good filtering could possibly help, as long as the noise is above the band-reject filter point. If it's within the pass-band then it's not going to be filtered by a conditioner. In that case, you might try the isolator, as the series inductance should reduce some of the noise and smooth out the waveform.
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 9, 2014 9:47:24 GMT -6
I auditioned several power conditioners at my old shop in Van Nuys. All of them reduced audio quality. Some cost as much as $5000 and had analog and seperate digital device AC outputs.
What they did was reduce available current and that showed with reduced low end energy.
A quality high current isolation transformer does work. I've installed these in studios. They are large and placed in a box/room far away from any audio gear. You take 120 V off the mains and run these as a center tapped output. This feeds + - 60 volts to hot and neutral. The centertap is your technical ground run with a 8 awg copper cable to a 1/2" 8 foot long copper rod driven into the ground.
This creates 'balanced power'. Since hum fields are now common mode cancelled electric guitars run quietly. The acoustic hum level from the individual power transformers in each audio piece are also reduced. These large 80 to 100 amp isolation transformers cost a couple thousand dollars but the results are stunning.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 9, 2014 10:12:36 GMT -6
^ this is the "balanced" rig i'm building here, but on a MUCH smaller scale, the console and outboard gear will run off of it primarily.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 9, 2014 12:00:52 GMT -6
The biggest audio improvements I've ever heard came from:
1. plugging all audio gear into a single duplex outlet.
2. Tightening up the screws in that outlet and every single connection back to the service entrance of the building. In a great many cases those connections have never been touched for 50 years or more.
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Post by formatcyes on Oct 9, 2014 15:21:22 GMT -6
2. Tightening up the screws in that outlet and every single connection back to the service entrance of the building. In a great many cases those connections have never been touched for 50 years or more. This is a good point and probably why people see a big difference going balanced power. Its probably not so much the balancing but more the new cable and low resistance joints. If you notice a difference going to one common socket that’s a sign your building mains cabling is not up to scratch. Something to remember the power supplyed to your building has gone thru a lot of transformers and most of it in 3phase balance form. The last stage to your premiss from a fairly small transformer (small in terms of the mains grid massive for us). Most of the problems 99.9% will be from your main switchboard to your equipment. The earth point/s on your building may have issues checking the connections is a good idea. Dry climates can have earthing issues even when everything looks good. Caution when tightening screws to copper conductors do NOT over tighten. If you break the copper or have stressed it so it breaks later it can create a high resistance joint. High resistance joints heat up and are a large cause of electrical fires. Lightning protection. The only use Is to see where the lightning went. The only way to stop lighting damage is to unplug your equipment. No if's or buts. 1.21 gigawatts is just going to jump straight thru your puny protectors..
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Oct 9, 2014 16:43:00 GMT -6
It's kind of a debate when you consider the facts. There are two things that I always wrestle with, with this. 1. Near elimination of RF interference 2. Increased transformer loads in the studio that create a buzz my telecasters just LOVE to eat like candy... when I track in the control room (most of the time). Same thing happens to me here, Ward. I have to turn away from the monitor to get rid of the audible RF.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Oct 10, 2014 9:15:40 GMT -6
Most buildings' mains cabling is not up to scratch. Loose connections on the pole is another problem I've seen cause massive RFI problems for studios a few times.
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Post by matt on Oct 10, 2014 9:53:38 GMT -6
I have been advised to add a "hospital grade" circuit - a 15 or 20A line, in conduit, run all the way from my service box to my family room, where all the action takes place. I was also advised to "re-ground" my box with a fatter, longer grounding rod. But I wonder if this would eliminate the rather bad hum picked up by anything single-coil when a refrigerator and air conditioner(s) are running off the same municipal power source. It seems that my entire house would have to be on an isolation transformer, which doesn't seem practical, or affordable.
One widely-known thing I can confirm: lighting dimmers are bad bad bad for AC line hum. Insanely bad. And of course all of my overhead lights are dimmed. We work in low light these days because of it.
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Post by jimwilliams on Oct 10, 2014 10:27:30 GMT -6
Unless the AC is wired balanced you will not get any reduction of hum fields for electric guitar single coil pickups. Even pointing towards "mecca" won't always work because you have so many EI transformers in audio gear all with different angles and hum field directions. It's like a 360 degree hum field that is generated.
Cheap dimmers produce harmonic noise, not 60/120/250 hz noise. That is solved with the use of those expensive wall mounted 'balanced' dimmers, they use one coil for hot and neutral to avoid noise generation. Pro rooms all use those, they run about $200 each. You can see the large tan dimmers on the walls of those rooms.
For Telecaster noise you can wire the room balanced power, replace the pickups with hum cancelling pickups or as I did, wire in a hum cancelling preamp/dummy coil and remove all the noise from the instrument.
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