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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2014 12:32:52 GMT -6
Anyone seen this? I'm halfway through it right now...very good...
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Post by mobeach on Aug 29, 2014 12:33:53 GMT -6
Good band, I know that much.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2014 14:04:18 GMT -6
Just finished. Obviously, it turned out decent for the band...but it looks like EMI never agreed to wipe the recoupment from the books. I bet what they did was agree that the new deal wouldn't cross collateralize ie, they wouldn't be able to recoup the last 8 years from the records on the new deal that was signed. It's still a horrendous deal to be in.
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Post by mobeach on Aug 29, 2014 14:50:27 GMT -6
Did the band have an attorney present when the original deal was signed? Getting nothing for 2 million record sales sounds pretty bogus.
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Post by drumrec on Aug 29, 2014 16:56:26 GMT -6
We musicians / songwriters have to fight hard for our right. 30S2M is a awesome band, thumbs up!
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 29, 2014 17:51:10 GMT -6
That's not at all unusual. All recording costs and advances are recoupable from mechanical sales of albums. I have been on almost 10 Million records and never seen a dime from the sale of any album I've had songs on.
For instance, say a publisher signed me to a $30k per year deal. Let's say in year three, I got a song on 30 Seconds To Mars album that sells a million copies. So - the publisher has paid me $90,000 in "advances" or salary. Songwriters make 9.25 cents per album sold with one song on it. So, with a platinum record, that's $92,500. But I cowrote the song, so there goes half of that. So I make $41,750, right? Wrong. In order to make that living wage of $30k per year, I had to give away all of my publishing, so they own 100% of the publishing. That makes it now half again. $20,875. But - since I owe them $90k for three years of advances, I actually OWE them $69,125.
So, from this point on if they keep me, any other mechanical royalty (sales of physical albums) goes toward paying that off. Of course, if I were to finally pay that off with having songs on ten more platinum albums (assuming I do it before I accrue any more salary debt) they will gladly send mechanical royalties directly to me.
Now, let's say 30STM had a number 1 hit with that song. That's called a performance royalty. USUALLY, publishers aren't able to recoup from that - but lately, publishers have started trying to add that into contracts. A No.1 pop hit could be worth around $1 Million. And we are talking about the big boy charts - Hot 100. (Generated from worldwide radio play) The writers would split a million in performance royalty - and Because they own all the publishing, the publisher would make around a million in publishing/performance...but here's the kicker - NONE of that publishing/performance royalty is applied to recoupment. So, in the end, it would still show on paper that I was $69,125 in debt to them.
The one caveat is that if you are fired/dropped, you don't have to pay the money to them. It is a business "risk" that they took. (Even though you really made them well over a million dollars)
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Post by mobeach on Aug 29, 2014 18:18:40 GMT -6
Unreal, Indie and private labels are sounding more attractive the more I read.
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Post by yotonic on Aug 29, 2014 19:59:07 GMT -6
Anytime you need to borrow money in business you are in a position of risk. The only thing worse than borrowing from a record company would be borrowing from PayDay Loans and then lastly a private equity firm...
So Jared Leto spent almost his entire life fortune, ($2million bucks), and a year of his life, recording a record and litigating with EMI-Terra Firma just to wind up signed with them again? And after 2 million copies sold of the aforementioned record, and a world tour, he is still $1.7 million in debt to them. Even worse he has never made one penny off of any of his records to date? WTF?
It seems like the record business and it's lure of fame is a vanity project that people are willing to pay for out of their own pocket. I guess we see a culture of people willing to work for free if brings them fame or celebrity, look at reality TV.
Pretty soon only the rich will be able to afford to be rock stars, just like our politicians.
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Post by svart on Aug 29, 2014 20:05:20 GMT -6
Cool, can't wait to watch it. When they first came out, I really thought it was a gimmick for Jared's acting career and I wrote them off. A few years later, a band asked me to make them sound like 30STM, so I bought the first two records and listened to them. I was actually a little ashamed that I wrote them off like I did, because they are actually a pretty great band.
I'm not too into the last record, but the first 3 are great.
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 6:56:57 GMT -6
Their newer stuff is Emo. What got me into them was the song they did at the end of the movie The Core.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 8:18:43 GMT -6
Anytime you need to borrow money in business you are in a position of risk. The only thing worse than borrowing from a record company would be borrowing from PayDay Loans and then lastly a private equity firm... So Jared Leto spent almost his entire life fortune, ($2million bucks), and a year of his life, recording a record and litigating with EMI-Terra Firma just to wind up signed with them again? And after 2 million copies sold of the aforementioned record, and a world tour, he is still $1.7 million in debt to them. Even worse he has never made one penny off of any of his records to date? WTF? It seems like the record business and it's lure of fame is a vanity project that people are willing to pay for out of their own pocket. I guess we see a culture of people willing to work for free if brings them fame or celebrity, look at reality TV. Pretty soon only the rich will be able to afford to be rock stars, just like our politicians. Try and get a record deal or songwriting deal without "borrowing" money. It doesn't happen. Try to get 1 Million for promotion of your first single from a Payday loan. Doesn't happen. They are entitled to get money back on what they've invested in, the crooked thing is the way they recoup it and what they count towards recoupment. The labels and publishers like to play the benevolent, good guy, "we just want to see you succeed..." And they DO lose lots of money on artists and songwriters that don't work out. But they wouldn't be in business if they didn't make money hand over fist on the successes. Like vampires stuck on a jugular. They also control relationships over WHAT get cuts. Try and get an independent co-written song cut in Nashville. I doubt very seriously it's been done once in Nashville in the last 5 years. It's a dirty business. |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 9:34:48 GMT -6
So it sounds like the elite decides who makes it in music, just like in politics. Yotonic wasn't far off. This is why I love Dream Theater so much, they did things their way and got rich. Virtually no air play, no record companies telling them what kind of songs they need to write, and they still make a killing off of CD sales. That's the kind of dedicated following they have. Roadrunner records seems to know what they're doing as well.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 9:40:15 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 9:42:05 GMT -6
Follow the money and you will know who controls everything.
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 10:12:36 GMT -6
Surely no one's perfect, but Rush and DT seem happy there, as well as Killswitch Engage, Opeth etc.. Rush probably could have gone with anyone, even at their age.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2014 10:44:00 GMT -6
Anytime you need to borrow money in business you are in a position of risk. The only thing worse than borrowing from a record company would be borrowing from PayDay Loans and then lastly a private equity firm... So Jared Leto spent almost his entire life fortune, ($2million bucks), and a year of his life, recording a record and litigating with EMI-Terra Firma just to wind up signed with them again? And after 2 million copies sold of the aforementioned record, and a world tour, he is still $1.7 million in debt to them. Even worse he has never made one penny off of any of his records to date? WTF? It seems like the record business and it's lure of fame is a vanity project that people are willing to pay for out of their own pocket. I guess we see a culture of people willing to work for free if brings them fame or celebrity, look at reality TV. Pretty soon only the rich will be able to afford to be rock stars, just like our politicians. Try and get a record deal or songwriting deal without "borrowing" money. It doesn't happen. Try to get 1 Million for promotion of your first single from a Payday loan. Doesn't happen. They are entitled to get money back on what they've invested in, the crooked thing is the way they recoup it and what they count towards recoupment. The labels and publishers like to play the benevolent, good guy, "we just want to see you succeed..." And they DO lose lots of money on artists and songwriters that don't work out. But they wouldn't be in business if they didn't make money hand over fist on the successes. Like vampires stuck on a jugular. They also control relationships over WHAT get cuts. Try and get an independent co-written song cut in Nashville. I doubt very seriously it's been done once in Nashville in the last 5 years. It's a dirty business. i have no idea if you're defending or bashing with this post? Honestly, it sounds like the proverbial selling of the soul, a convoluted shitty deal from top to bottom, with people knowingly feeding themselves to the sharks?... for $30K loan a year to be paid back? WTF? I'd just remain a man in tact, get a job at home depot making more money, and make music in my free time, it seems more dignified..?, I think i'd be happier in the end, and wouldn't end up being in debt as someones little bitch. Quite honestly, in the unlikely event i ever have any commercial success with my tunes, it will be on my own terms or not at all, and thats just the way it is, no regrets either way. to be clear, i see it as a raw deal for the artists here, but their willingness to jump into shark infested waters... is a stumper? It's almost like it's romantic to be a part of the "i got fucked by my label" crowd. |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 11:39:09 GMT -6
Most would be happier recording in their home studio, but these artists getting screwed by record companies are also getting huge bucks from touring. The home recording artist will never get those tours.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2014 11:46:23 GMT -6
Most would be happier recording in their home studio, but these artists getting screwed by record companies are also getting huge bucks from touring. The home recording artist will never get those tours. That is an absolutely miniscule % of artists, the vast majority are the smaller profile JK type artists, i think a lot of the touring cash goes to paying record co debt as well though? I'm sure Mr. John Kennedy would know some specifics on that as well? |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 12:05:09 GMT -6
Probably, since the artists with the major labels for the most part are established. I don't know if the promoters are tied in with the record companies or not. Artists like the Foo Fighters and Tom Petty record their own albums, how are they affected by the cut throat nature of the major labels?
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 30, 2014 12:15:53 GMT -6
Probably, since the artists with the major labels for the most part are established. I don't know if the promoters are tied in with the record companies or not. Artists like the Foo Fighters and Tom Petty record their own albums, how are they affected by the cut throat nature of the major labels? good question, but i think they qualify as music icons, and can pretty much call their own shots? I figure most labels would probably give away the farm to havem? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 14:33:50 GMT -6
Try and get a record deal or songwriting deal without "borrowing" money. It doesn't happen. Try to get 1 Million for promotion of your first single from a Payday loan. Doesn't happen. They are entitled to get money back on what they've invested in, the crooked thing is the way they recoup it and what they count towards recoupment. The labels and publishers like to play the benevolent, good guy, "we just want to see you succeed..." And they DO lose lots of money on artists and songwriters that don't work out. But they wouldn't be in business if they didn't make money hand over fist on the successes. Like vampires stuck on a jugular. They also control relationships over WHAT get cuts. Try and get an independent co-written song cut in Nashville. I doubt very seriously it's been done once in Nashville in the last 5 years. It's a dirty business. i have no idea if you're defending or bashing with this post? Honestly, it sounds like the proverbial selling of the soul, a convoluted shitty deal from top to bottom, with people knowingly feeding themselves to the sharks?... for $30K loan a year to be paid back? WTF? I'd just remain a man in tact, get a job at home depot making more money, and make music in my free time, it seems more dignified..?, I think i'd be happier in the end, and wouldn't end up being in debt as someones little bitch. Quite honestly, in the unlikely event i ever have any commercial success with my tunes, it will be on my own terms or not at all, and thats just the way it is, no regrets either way. to be clear, i see it as a raw deal for the artists here, but their willingness to jump into shark infested waters... is a stumper? It's almost like it's romantic to be a part of the "i got fucked by my label" crowd. If you don't play the game, you have about a 10,000,000 to 1 chance of having legitimate success. The choice is yours though. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 14:36:35 GMT -6
Most would be happier recording in their home studio, but these artists getting screwed by record companies are also getting huge bucks from touring. The home recording artist will never get those tours. That is an absolutely miniscule % of artists, the vast majority are the smaller profile JK type artists, i think a lot of the touring cash goes to paying record co debt as well though? I'm sure Mr. John Kennedy would know some specifics on that as well? I'm not an artist, I'm a songwriter. But with current record deals - 360 deals as described in the documentary - the label wants part of everything. Touring, merchandise - you name it. At this point, signing one of these record deals is not the best option for success. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 14:40:38 GMT -6
Probably, since the artists with the major labels for the most part are established. I don't know if the promoters are tied in with the record companies or not. Artists like the Foo Fighters and Tom Petty record their own albums, how are they affected by the cut throat nature of the major labels? good question, but i think they qualify as music icons, and can pretty much call their own shots? I figure most labels would probably give away the farm to havem? They are the anomalies. Most record companies don't want to get into business with them - especially the older artists - they just choose to not work with them because it's not worth their time and effort financially. The money is made in making new artists and making unbelievably unfair deals with them. It pays to have a great lawyer. The name of the game is cash. Even Tom Petty doesn't have the money to spend on a full scale major label promotion push - much less funding a tour. If you want to be on American radio, you HAVE to play the game. |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 30, 2014 14:52:07 GMT -6
It sounds like the best thing that can happen is the major labels going bankrupt. It also means that the A&R guys are only there to suck people into getting their lives taken away. I don't see the benefit of getting signed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 30, 2014 15:18:51 GMT -6
Well, you get a career. Contracts end. You're famous, have a huge following and then you have leverage. As a songwriter, if you hit a lick, you finish your (usual) 3 year contract and go somewhere else where they're willing to give you what you want so they can have those hits. They make it up by screwing someone else. That's the dream.
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