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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2014 13:15:03 GMT -6
I thought I'd take the time to do what I'd recommended other do when talking about click as necessity. I actually imported some recordings I love to see how many click out. Meaning, how many can I set a static tempo and it follows the whole song. Rules: no EDM and other obviously intentional mechanical percussion songs. If it's supposed to sound like a machine rhythm...well...you use a machine...and the timing is part of that. So, if there's a lofi drum loop in there...chances are the drummer followed IT, not visa versa--which as a side note, IS possible now, while it wasn't when those were hip and fresh.  So far, Nashvegas has provided the only clickable tunes: Both a Martina (Wild Angels) and Trisha (Under the Rainbow) song clicked out....BUT....there is NO way Trisha's band played to that. It goes so far off....then finds it's way back...I mean maybe....if so, Eddie Bayers is a god among men to be able to drum while utterly ignoring the click--staying JUST with it close enough to fall back in. Or maybe they edited the B section in from a slightly faster (or not clicked) take and dropped it into place with the clicked out verses...anyway--the Trisha cut is odd...it pushes and pulls (in a macro sense, not like rushing the 1) a LOT--but, I can't deny, the one ends up lining up at the beginning and end. However the variation was done. I should pull up one of Fundis's more recent records--that last Sugarland MIGHT be the last nashvegas record I bought....I mean, by a "new" artist. I'll still buy whatever those two or Matraca or Suzy Bogguss does....even when it's all Waylon Jennings covers....? Kevin Gilbert....mostly one man band....Goodness Gracious. Nope. Not even CLOSE. Doesn't keep a clickable tempo longer than two bars. Hall&Oates....Rich Girl--clickable right up to the bridge. You know--the part you likely call the "hook"...."Don't you KNOW....That its' wrong....to hurt others when you can't feel pain...."--never returns to the intro tempo--even when going back to the refrain at the end. So, I would guess because it started with just Hall&Piano, then the band needed to come in--they printed a click for the first 30sec or whatever...start him right to what felt good with the whole band. Or again--tape edit....intro from a click'd take, then into the "feels good" band take. Shawn Colvin....Round of Blues....now, this one I would've bet WAS clicked, simply because when I think of a solid straight four beats....this one pops into my head. Nope. Not close. Next? I am simply laying out the data for perspective. Feel free to grab YOUR fave music and post in this thread what does and doesn't click out. I think it would be an interesting database. If everyone pisks a handful of personal faves to add to the pile. Simply pull it into the daw, use something to tap tempo (cubase has the function built in) for a starting place....make sure your daw doesn't have any kind of musical timestretching enabled on the imported tracks. To get the Martina and Trisha, I had to go to decimal point tempos....135.2 sounds right for Wild Angels. 109.7 for Under the Rainbow. FWIW. |
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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2014 14:21:20 GMT -6
Added a couple faves from last year.
The Lake Street Dive "Bad Self Portraits DOES click out, but holy SHIT I want to work with that drummer. Because they would drift WAY off....and he would throw in a kind of oddly stilted fill to land RIGHT the hell back on the click one.
Robben Ford and Michael McDonald's "Judgement Day" doesn't. I thought it did...it's still possible that it was assembled from different takes, I guess--because it would be LOCKED in....and then buh bye when moving to the next section....adjust the tempo and get that locked and it's moving again. But, for all intents and purposes, not clickable--whether it was assembled from clicked and non clicked or different tempo takes or not...
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Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2014 16:33:45 GMT -6
there is a website somewhere that shows charts of songs and their tempo variance (if any) during the song. If I can find it I will post the link here.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by popmann on Aug 20, 2014 18:51:17 GMT -6
That would be cool.
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Post by wiz on Aug 20, 2014 19:20:05 GMT -6
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Post by levon on Aug 20, 2014 23:51:37 GMT -6
That's all fine and dandy if you have a bunch of capable musicians together in a room. If your drummer is steady, you don't need a click and the song breathes nicely. I'm not a capable musician, my timing is pretty wild and I know that, so I need a click especially when laying down basic tracks. In an ideal world, I probably shouldn't play music at all, but, hey, I have no choice, this is something that I got inside and it wants to come out. I grew up in a family of musicians, from parents to aunts and uncles. My brother is a conductor, working with big orchestras, so music is my life, even if I have to use a click. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 21, 2014 0:02:47 GMT -6
That's all fine and dandy if you have a bunch of capable musicians together in a room. If your drummer is steady, you don't need a click and the song breathes nicely. I'm not a capable musician, my timing is pretty wild and I know that, so I need a click especially when laying down basic tracks. In an ideal world, I probably shouldn't play music at all, but, hey, I have no choice, this is something that I got inside and it wants to come out. I grew up in a family of musicians, from parents to aunts and uncles. My brother is a conductor, working with big orchestras, so music is my life, even if I have to use a click. What a crock! Levon is great!... Levon, knock it off man, ur great bromee! |
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Post by levon on Aug 21, 2014 1:58:11 GMT -6
That's all fine and dandy if you have a bunch of capable musicians together in a room. If your drummer is steady, you don't need a click and the song breathes nicely. I'm not a capable musician, my timing is pretty wild and I know that, so I need a click especially when laying down basic tracks. In an ideal world, I probably shouldn't play music at all, but, hey, I have no choice, this is something that I got inside and it wants to come out. I grew up in a family of musicians, from parents to aunts and uncles. My brother is a conductor, working with big orchestras, so music is my life, even if I have to use a click. What a crock! Levon is great!... Levon, knock it off man, ur great bromee! Thanks bro, but you only heard my stuff AFTER correction of my timing, lol |
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Post by mobeach on Aug 21, 2014 4:45:54 GMT -6
there is a website somewhere that shows charts of songs and their tempo variance (if any) during the song. If I can find it I will post the link here. cheers Wiz Have fun with bands like Dream Theater  |
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Post by henge on Aug 21, 2014 5:34:50 GMT -6
What a crock! Levon is great!... Levon, knock it off man, ur great bromee! Thanks bro, but you only heard my stuff AFTER correction of my timing, lol You gotta get tonycamphd to lay down some swing for you... |
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Post by levon on Aug 21, 2014 6:41:02 GMT -6
Thanks bro, but you only heard my stuff AFTER correction of my timing, lol You gotta get tonycamphd to lay down some swing for you... Haha, I'm trying. As soon as he gets his room done, he'll lay down some mean tracks for, dontcha T? |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 21, 2014 7:16:52 GMT -6
cool post wiz, the tempo graphs were interesting. It seemed to me that Bernard Purdie's track was done the way it was on purpose, so it felt right. There's something a little more steady and musical about his track, you can hear it in his playing, but you can almost feel it when looking at the graph. Clearly perfect timing doesn't work as well as a drummer with great timing who swings with the feel of the songs. I'd have loved to see a Charlie Watts graph, I bet that takes off like a jet engine.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 21, 2014 7:19:18 GMT -6
You gotta get tonycamphd to lay down some swing for you... Haha, I'm trying. As soon as he gets his room done, he'll lay down some mean tracks for, dontcha T? I'm making decent progress, you will be the first drum tracks out of here LT!! Doing binary amplitude diffusion (wood slat) around the entire room, over roxul 60. I'm very close believe it or not, it's a lot of work man! sorry for the OT  |
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Post by wiz on Aug 21, 2014 16:45:23 GMT -6
cool post wiz, the tempo graphs were interesting. It seemed to me that Bernard Purdie's track was done the way it was on purpose, so it felt right. There's something a little more steady and musical about his track, you can hear it in his playing, but you can almost feel it when looking at the graph. Clearly perfect timing doesn't work as well as a drummer with great timing who swings with the feel of the songs. I'd have loved to see a Charlie Watts graph, I bet that takes off like a jet engine. there is one in there, of Sympathy For The Devil. Its really varied. cheers Wiz |
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Post by ElGato on Aug 22, 2014 10:47:32 GMT -6
IME, there are songs that work well with a fixed tempo, others that work well with tempo changes and then there are others that work best without a click.
This goes for my own songs, too. I was surprised when noticed that some of the songs I like most don't use any click and they sound solid.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 22, 2014 13:25:30 GMT -6
I know a lot of times when we were mocking songs up we would increase or decrease going into or coming out of a chorus or bridge. I wonder if that could be some of the variations you're seeing? Not by much usually either, like we'd maybe go into a chorus from 82bpm to 84bpm and fall back into 82 on the tag.
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Post by IamJohnGalt on Aug 26, 2014 21:49:14 GMT -6
That's all fine and dandy if you have a bunch of capable musicians together in a room. If your drummer is steady, you don't need a click and the song breathes nicely. I'm not a capable musician, my timing is pretty wild and I know that, so I need a click especially when laying down basic tracks. In an ideal world, I probably shouldn't play music at all, but, hey, I have no choice, this is something that I got inside and it wants to come out. I grew up in a family of musicians, from parents to aunts and uncles. My brother is a conductor, working with big orchestras, so music is my life, even if I have to use a click. Cool....thanks. |
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Post by IamJohnGalt on Aug 26, 2014 21:51:08 GMT -6
That's all fine and dandy if you have a bunch of capable musicians together in a room. If your drummer is steady, you don't need a click and the song breathes nicely. I'm not a capable musician, my timing is pretty wild and I know that, so I need a click especially when laying down basic tracks. In an ideal world, I probably shouldn't play music at all, but, hey, I have no choice, this is something that I got inside and it wants to come out. I grew up in a family of musicians, from parents to aunts and uncles. My brother is a conductor, working with big orchestras, so music is my life, even if I have to use a click. |
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Post by Randge on Aug 26, 2014 21:57:29 GMT -6
Don't count out the fact that some drummers might have used a flashing click and only they are seeing it. I have done that with success before. It helps on the real slow ballads when all the players just want to hurry up and get it done. Ha!
R
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Post by mrholmes on Aug 27, 2014 14:45:33 GMT -6
If you overdub a click is very helpful
If you have a band which is playing for ages together - you do not need a click….
There is pretty tight music even with a band - take Django Reinhardt for example.
Most of the 80s stuff is tight….
And the music of tray is most often only hard quantized…boom back boom back…..
If you want that it breathes nicely, you need real musicians in a real room.
BTW playing with the click is a good thing to get a better timing.
When I started my home recording, many years ago, friends recognized that my timing improved.
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 27, 2014 15:18:50 GMT -6
Cannot some of the DAWs change the tempo? I am prity sure I saw a video tutorial (cubase) where they drew in a tempo slow for the verses speeding up thru the choruses. Variable click?
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Post by popmann on Aug 27, 2014 17:30:49 GMT -6
Sure....but, how many use it? You can't map it out ahead of time--that defeats the purpose, IMO/E--at least it takes WAY more work than a steady click OR just playing it without....but, you CAN remap the tempo TO what was played. Cubase's time warp allows you to define just bar lines, then it subdivides evenly....that was always the issue, in the day, with beat by beat tempo maps--they make repetition at all useless because the internal beat relationship is different.
So, here's what I'm gonna do as an experiment....drums cut to a click...so steady tempo....I'm going to play without regard for them--map that...and have the drum part "follow" me playing and singing...this is what the demo making process is for--experimenting with oddball ideas.
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Post by popmann on Aug 28, 2014 18:37:02 GMT -6
So, interesting note...A) sounds fine to use either Cubase's audio tempo matching with real multimic'd kit OR use MIDI loop (Groove agent) to a manually mapped to audio tempo....but B)really doesn't "feel" much different. Maybe it shouldn't immediately feel different...after all, my human variation was in line with what that site would deem "likely used a click"--didn't they say the same tempo plus or minus 2bpm? I mean...that's just kinda having remotely good time, no?
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Post by wiz on Aug 28, 2014 20:34:29 GMT -6
popmannany chance of hearing them? cheers Wiz
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Post by popmann on Aug 28, 2014 21:34:55 GMT -6
Not where they're at right now....no....I tried tonight to export the drum midi from the Kronos and import into the Cubase project so it was literally the same drum track--only following my tempo....and it reminds me of why I stopped USING midi (except for strings) a decade+ ago....it doesn't even resemble the beat. I mean, obviously it does--it's the same notes....but, with a different sample set, it's literally pooched the internal dynamics of the groove...
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