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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 12:59:54 GMT -6
I just checked the specs and you're right, the MOTU M4 line outs are +16db which is pretty low. A passive DI won't do anything for this. You could raise the signal in the outboard itself but then you'd have the problem of the inputs which also have somewhat limited headroom.
But. Why is this a problem? As long as there isn't a signal to noise issue, can't you just turn the track up in the DAW? Are you worried that you're not hitting your compressors hard enough or something? What outboard are you using?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:06:37 GMT -6
I just checked the specs and you're right, the MOTU M4 line outs are +16db which is pretty low. A passive DI won't do anything for this. You could raise the signal in the outboard itself but then you'd have the problem of the inputs which also have somewhat limited headroom. But. Why is this a problem? As long as there isn't a signal to noise issue, can't you just turn the track up in the DAW? Are you worried that you're not hitting your compressors hard enough or something? What outboard are you using? When I raise gain in the DAW, the actual gain in line 3/4 doesn’t move up at all and it distorts really quickly. Sounds like you're raising the output gain. I'm suggesting that you raise the signal after it's converted back to Digital whether a printed track or whatever. The ugly distortion is clipping the DA converters which have pretty low headroom. You'll get the same ugly distortion if you boost the level in the analog realm because your inputs are limited to 16db as well. But you shouldn't have a problem boosting after your AD stage. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:08:11 GMT -6
By the way, the reason for this is that the M4 is bus powered. So they need to design it to get enough power from the lowest common denominator USB bus otherwise they'd have all kinds of compatibility issues.
Not a good or a bad thing, just a thing. Just a tradeoff. You get portability but you lose headroom. As long as you're careful with your levels you should be great.
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DI Box
Nov 21, 2024 13:17:14 GMT -6
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:17:14 GMT -6
That shouldn't be. Once you've rendered back into your DAW it should be like any other track. Something's funky here.
What DAW are you using? Maybe if you list your step by step process it could help.
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DI Box
Nov 21, 2024 13:28:28 GMT -6
Post by doubledog on Nov 21, 2024 13:28:28 GMT -6
also what is the outboard "gear"? is it everything or just one device?
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Post by doubledog on Nov 21, 2024 13:35:57 GMT -6
you can also just bypass any gear and go straight wire out and back in - that eliminates any outboard gear so you can see if it is the interface's I/O (or maybe some MOTU setting?). That would be your baseline.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:39:15 GMT -6
also what is the outboard "gear"? is it everything or just one device? Sorry I should have mentioned it’s the SPL Vitalizer MK3, and yeah I just tried it again with proper gain staging and turning it back up and same quieter result. Is this just the result of the EQ itself? Going to test my compressors and the vitalizer side by side right now to see if this is with everything that I try to send out and back in. I've not used the Vitalizer personally but looking at the controls there's no real reason why you shouldn't be able to get a consistent signal. It's not doing any signal reduction or anything unless you have the drive knob way down. But even still, you can just turn up the fader on the return signal after it's been converted by the AD, right? Let me tell you my process and maybe that will help. I use Studio One which has Pipeline XT for I/O like this. Logic and ProTools and Cubase and I think most of the rest have their own plugins that do this but you could accomplish the same thing just routing ouputs and inputs. Anyway. 1) I send the signal out of the Pipeline XT. There's a send knob in that plugin which controls the strength of the output signal. Just like with your interface, I check to see that I'm not clipping my outputs or even getting close to clipping. 2) The processing all happens in the analog realm just as you are doing with your Vitalizer. 3) So that I can get an idea if I even like the processing, I tweak the return knob in Pipeline to get the levels somewhat balanced. If I got my send right, I shouldn't have any clipping issues on the return when the levels are matched. I suspect this is why you're frustrated here right? It's hard to tell if you like what the Vitalizer is doing if it's softer. If your DAW doesn't have a plugin like this with a return knob, you can just bring the level up in the DAW after the signal is converted back to digital. 4) I'll usually print that track instead of rendering. I just create a new track and use the processed track as its input source and then hit record. I don't trust rendering. 5) At that point I have no concern about if it's louder or softer than the other track. If I like the processing I just disable the old track and move on. |
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DI Box
Nov 21, 2024 13:47:58 GMT -6
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:47:58 GMT -6
you can also just bypass any gear and go straight wire out and back in - that eliminates any outboard gear so you can see if it is the interface's I/O (or maybe some MOTU setting?). That would be your baseline. So when I bypass all the controls on the vitalizer and just let audio pass through while level matching the original signal, there still seems to be some volume loss (even though meters show matched levels) I’m also using gainmatch plug for accuracy.. it seems to bring the processed tracks gain up even more than what the meters show on the original track. Something is weird. Just checked your specs and you actually have 2db MORE headroom on the input so if anything you should be able to make the signal slightly louder coming back. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Nov 21, 2024 13:58:01 GMT -6
Buy a used Matchbox or Aphex 120, or a little Mackie 1202 .
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 13:58:57 GMT -6
Something is weird. Just checked your specs and you actually have 2db MORE headroom on the input so if anything you should be able to make the signal slightly louder coming back. Maybe it’s bad wires? I’m not too sure what’s happening here but you’ve been extremely helpful already. thanks a lot If it were me the first thing I would do be to swap out cables for sure. I don't know. I'm pretty good with the creative side of routing and things like this, but I'm not very savvy on the actual electronics. But I do know enough to know that you shouldn't be getting an attenuated signal just doing a clean loop. Actually, maybe test that too. Run a test signal from output to input. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 14:00:29 GMT -6
OH WAIT!!! I have an idea. Go into the MOTU routing thing (whatever that monstrosity is called) and check to see that you haven't turned down the input signal there. Go into your configuration settings (same place you set sample rate) and look at the little digital knobs for your I/O.
This could be it. In fact, I'd push my chips in on that one. I'll take those odds.
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Post by doubledog on Nov 21, 2024 14:08:16 GMT -6
also, when you do the straight wire test don't just disable or bypass the outboard. completely remove it from the signal path AND disable any plugins (i.e., gainmatch). you have to remove all "variables" if you want the true results.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 14:35:30 GMT -6
also, when you do the straight wire test don't just disable or bypass the outboard. completely remove it from the signal path AND disable any plugins (i.e., gainmatch). you have to remove all "variables" if you want the true results. Ahh, okay so just sent signal out and back in to the interface without any gear plugged in and indeed the same thing is happening. Check that MOTU Pro Control thing. Go into Pro Control and click "Device". From there you should be able to see if the line inputs and outputs have been changed somehow. I'm betting that your inputs are turned down a couple db. |
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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DI Box
Nov 21, 2024 14:37:08 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by mrcel0 on Nov 21, 2024 14:37:08 GMT -6
Ahh, okay so just sent signal out and back in to the interface without any gear plugged in and indeed the same thing is happening. Check that MOTU Pro Control thing. Go into Pro Control and click "Device". From there you should be able to see if the line inputs and outputs have been changed somehow. I'm betting that your inputs are turned down a couple db. I’m not sure if the M Series has any software. I’ve tried looking at it only shows me “Motu M Series” app which has little to no functionality beyond sample rate/ buffer size :/ |
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DI Box
Nov 21, 2024 14:50:17 GMT -6
Post by gravesnumber9 on Nov 21, 2024 14:50:17 GMT -6
Check that MOTU Pro Control thing. Go into Pro Control and click "Device". From there you should be able to see if the line inputs and outputs have been changed somehow. I'm betting that your inputs are turned down a couple db. I’m not sure if the M Series has any software. I’ve tried looking at it only shows me “Motu M Series” app which has little to no functionality beyond sample rate/ buffer size :/ You're right. M series doesn't use the (stupidly complicated) digital mixer. I'm still betting there's something turned down somewhere on a setting. Or bad cables. But beyond that I'd have to defer to someone who actually knows electronics. I still think it's probably a buried setting somewhere. |
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Post by doubledog on Nov 21, 2024 20:05:41 GMT -6
I'd also suggest trying Motu support and see if they can explain why a signal going out and directly back in gets attenuated. it really shouldn't.
I assume you are going TRS from the line out 3/4 TRS and back into the Line in 3/4 TRS jacks (and not out the RCA jacks, right?)
I also saw a mention about a "M4 driver loopback" so you can loop your outputs back into your computer blah blah blah... I know nothing about that, but might be worth looking into the "M4 driver" if there is some configuration you can do?
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