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Post by bluesholyman on Nov 7, 2024 19:33:24 GMT -6
I am working on improving my vocal technique for singing my own demo's - I've been told I can do it by her (my coach) - I just need to work on a lot of things  - she is kind but direct and demanding - I don't get off easy with her. So in my lesson today I raise a question about how I can sing something like "All I Ask Of You" from Phantom and feel good about the tone/timber but that I can't translate a similar tone/timber over to a Country singing style. I felt like with more of a Country style, its like my voice gets a blanket put over it. She goes "show me." So I do a rendition of the first verse of "All I Ask..." and before I even finish she goes, ok, I know whats up - you need a lesson in Opera. Not the answer I was expecting, as I am trying to sing country, but I go with it. She proceeds to walk me through proper posture, shoulders back, elongating the torso to make room for more air, etc. And then we do a couple vocal exercises of holding the word "No" as long as I can at full volume and apparently I wasn't. She kept taunting me with "More" much like the Phantom taunts Christine with "Sing!" - well, maybe not quite like that. I sounded like I have never heard myself sound before (in a good way). It was quite the workout. I played Trumpet for 25 years so how I used air playing Trumpet is very different from how I need to use it singing. So now muscles and body parts in the upper torso I didn't know I have are quite sore. Everything (almost) is different from playing trumpet and I really have to think about whats going on - not used to the level of physical demand and nuance that singing requires. I have no ambitions for Opera, except for the techniques that can help me sing better for Country, or just in general. Today was quite eye opening and marginally painful in many muscles. And somehow I know today is just a snowflake on the iceberg.... |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 7, 2024 20:23:04 GMT -6
Tell us how she has you Breath? Belly “out” on inhale? Or “in”? (Warning: Chessparov is nerded out on this  ) BTW adding a microphone leans towards “Popera”. REAL Opera is sans microphone. LOL! Chris P.S. I’m primarily performing melodic stuff around Town FWIW. |
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Post by yotonic on Nov 7, 2024 23:38:44 GMT -6
Breath control is everything. Too many people blow out all of their air while singing and fail to remove “that blanket” by not moving their voice into their face where they can access more resonance.
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Post by chessparov on Nov 8, 2024 0:49:14 GMT -6
The area of approximately “the Nose”…. Is false Resonance and will make the Voice (almost) wholly dependent on amplification. * (Doesn’t carry acoustically) Above that is the True Mask. Chris *One test is to pinch your nose closed. And hear if the volume is greatly reduced. |
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Post by EmRR on Nov 8, 2024 0:51:32 GMT -6
Had someone trained in opera on the show tonight, endless power and projection. Have had several actually, along with 3 doing proper opera. They don’t need mics to hurt 250 people’s ears with sheer power!
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Post by chessparov on Nov 8, 2024 0:53:46 GMT -6
Sounds almost like the Jazz Guitarist who plays 30 chords in his set. To 100 people. Whereas the Rock Guitarist plays 3. To 10,000. (I keed I keed)  |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 8, 2024 3:46:18 GMT -6
Breath control for “contemporary” singing styles is very simple and very easy to understand.
I’ve been teaching vocals for over 20 years and I’m constantly surprised by teachers who turn it into something I feel is convoluted.
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Post by bluesholyman on Nov 8, 2024 6:04:12 GMT -6
Tell us how she has you Breath? Belly “out” on inhale? Or “in”? (Warning: Chessparov is nerded out on this ) BTW adding a microphone leans towards “Popera”. REAL Opera is sans microphone. LOL! Chris P.S. I’m primarily performing melodic stuff around Town FWIW.
I am good with nerd speak, it is how I communicate mostly. Ask my wife, although, she calls my nerd speak "grunts." Breath control is everything. Too many people blow out all of their air while singing and fail to remove “that blanket” by not moving their voice into their face where they can access more resonance. Yeah, this is one of the things I am conscience of and trying to figure out control and consistency on. Sounds almost like the Jazz Guitarist who plays 30 chords in his set. To 100 people. Whereas the Rock Guitarist plays 3. To 10,000. (I keed I keed) Fell out of my chair (almost) laughing at this...well played sir, well played. Breath control for “contemporary” singing styles is very simple and very easy to understand. I’ve been teaching vocals for over 20 years and I’m constantly surprised by teachers who turn it into something I feel is convoluted. She acknowledged I did not need to learn Opera style to do what I want, however, she did say it would make me a stronger singer than if I didn't know it. I love (some) Broadway musicals for the singing - Phantom (Original London Cast) and Joseph's...Dream Coat (1993 w/ Michael Damian), to name a couple. I think I will actually enjoy learning what I can about Opera. Gonna say this next "thing" with a grain of salt. She said she was thinking about who or what kind of singer I sound like when we first started lessons. In that particular lesson (a month or two ago) she played some Opera piece for me of what sounded like a tenor. I had no idea who it was as I don't listen to Opera. She turned the phone and it was Pavarotti. The look of disbelief on my face must have been priceless. I am not saying I do or will ever sound like Pavarotti, but she believes there is something there, and I am willing to try. I will only get better. |
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Post by wendelgee2 on Nov 8, 2024 7:35:46 GMT -6
It really is strange that we need to be taught how to breathe. I think one of the simplest and most eye opening things my vocal coach did back in the day was make me sing laying down. Makes your breathing technique very apparent.
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 8, 2024 7:52:12 GMT -6
Simple test guys.
Find your middle register note
For me as a tenor it’s middle C or middle D.
If you can’t sing this note steadily for a continuous 30 seconds with a rich projected tone, you’re using too much air.
Now make an arpeggio of it - so in my case,
C below middle C through E through G to the middle C.
A major chord arpeggio.
Sing this up and down continuously and you should be able to do it for a minimum of 30 seconds.
If you can’t you’re using to much air or you’re approximating your chords.
One has to break the relationship between pitch and air flow.
As a pianist plays higher notes on the piano he doesn’t have to hit them harder!
The biggest step forward in vocal production is
Air - muscle balance.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,059 
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Post by ericn on Nov 8, 2024 11:45:23 GMT -6
Had someone trained in opera on the show tonight, endless power and projection. Have had several actually, along with 3 doing proper opera. They don’t need mics to hurt 250 people’s ears with sheer power! Man Doug I still have nightmares of doing shows where someone insisted a bunch of opera trained singers use wireless handhelds. No matter how low you put the transmitter level they would clip the damn thing if it was unmuted! These were gigs where coverage of about 270 degrees was needed so you had to use some reinforcement but Wireless was just stupid! |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 8, 2024 12:18:41 GMT -6
Too (much) Aria is Human.
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Post by bluesholyman on Nov 8, 2024 12:53:51 GMT -6
One has to break the relationship between pitch and air flow. As a pianist plays higher notes on the piano he doesn’t have to hit them harder! I like how you explain this - mentally, I think higher notes require a bigger hammer. |
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Post by EmRR on Nov 8, 2024 16:10:04 GMT -6
Had someone trained in opera on the show tonight, endless power and projection. Have had several actually, along with 3 doing proper opera. They don’t need mics to hurt 250 people’s ears with sheer power! Man Doug I still have nightmares of doing shows where someone insisted a bunch of opera trained singers use wireless handhelds. No matter how low you put the transmitter level they would clip the damn thing if it was unmuted! These were gigs where coverage of about 270 degrees was needed so you had to use some reinforcement but Wireless was just stupid! Yep, and the output levels are such that mics tend to hear what sounds like distortion in the voice. On a couple opera performances I had Sennheiser mkh40 8-10 feet in front of the singer, on another an RCA 44 a similar distance. Both cases, also in the PA just barely. PLENTY of level off both mic types. Wireless HH? No way. Not without a special low gain circuit I’m unaware of. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Nov 9, 2024 8:33:32 GMT -6
I played Trumpet for 25 years so how I used air playing Trumpet is very different from how I need to use it singing.So now muscles and body parts in the upper torso I didn't know I have are quite sore. Everything (almost) is different from playing trumpet and I really have to think about whats going on - not used to the level of physical demand and nuance that singing requires. I thought that after blowing through 16 feet of tubing playing French Horn as well as trumpet that I knew how to breathe for singing. I was WRONG. |
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Post by bluesholyman on Nov 9, 2024 13:11:49 GMT -6
Too (much) Aria is Human. But to sforzando is divine |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 9, 2024 14:55:10 GMT -6
Even to do as Pavarotti himself encapsulated. “Sing (Breathe) as the Baby cries and laughs”… Can be very challenging. But as Michael Trimble teaches… “Then the Voice can take off like a Rocket” (Proper Bel Canto Projection) The more I learn the better I realize… My voice Classically was/is best suited for the Small Opera House. Or piano recital. May_be Medium size Opera House. Maybe. Taking on more than you can. Can be hazardous to your Vocal Health! Chris P.S. Hopefully our “House Tenor” Vincent will chime in. |
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Post by Vincent R. on Nov 10, 2024 10:50:30 GMT -6
Man Doug I still have nightmares of doing shows where someone insisted a bunch of opera trained singers use wireless handhelds. No matter how low you put the transmitter level they would clip the damn thing if it was unmuted! These were gigs where coverage of about 270 degrees was needed so you had to use some reinforcement but Wireless was just stupid! Yep, and the output levels are such that mics tend to hear what sounds like distortion in the voice. On a couple opera performances I had Sennheiser mkh40 8-10 feet in front of the singer, on another an RCA 44 a similar distance. Both cases, also in the PA just barely. PLENTY of level off both mic types. Wireless HH? No way. Not without a special low gain circuit I’m unaware of. Emily and I have to use the internal pads on our wireless mics or we peak out the transmitter. That or we have to keep the mics nearly a foot away from us at minimum. The short of it is you have to learn to breath the way you breath when you cry. It’s a natural coordination, but you learn to utilize it for singing. You breath deep into your back, expanding your whole chest cavity. I literally increase my chest size by at least a jacket size when I expand. Then you press into the diaphragm gently from bellow. Some people will talk about the tummy tuck, because you’re pressing the diaphragm from below and the bottom of your stomach tucks a bit while the diaphragm area pushes out a bit. The Italians call it a lean; appogiare. You allow only the air you need to vibrate the chords out at any given time. You try and keep that expanded chest cavity the whole time, which allows you to take easier breaths to refill, rather than refilling the whole cavity each time. It’s a coordination thing. There are some great exercises to help you build the muscles used for this. Again, I really need to make a video showing how these works and exercises that build the technique. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 10, 2024 11:40:49 GMT -6
Great post! As you know… Most singers confuse “Chest Expansion” with letting the lower abdomen go OUT during inhalation. (It’s supposed to go IN during inhalation.)br] Otherwise the Tone can largely go “into the Nose”. Along with that, most “Singers” exhale too much air. I’d say less than 10% (easily) of the Local Pro (Paid ) Singers-Who have Gigs, do this reasonably well Live. Personally I’ve been even going back to including “Sing like Bing” I’m to the point where I’m performing simpler Pop songs. (Or helping simple Harmonies) Then “trying” something and subjecting an Audience to that risk.. Chris P.S. Sorry Vincent if this seems/is oversimplified. I’m aware of some of the refinements. But Gallup-Curci’s advice to “paste the Abdomen against the Spine”/During Inhalation really has helped me! |
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Post by thehightenor on Nov 10, 2024 12:45:45 GMT -6
Yep, you don't need much water to drive a turbine but what you need is a big reservoir to supply just the right steady pressure - support isn't pushing.
Like blowing through two blades of grass - you just need the right amount of pressure and those blades will sing - blast them and they'll fall silent!
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Post by bluesholyman on Nov 11, 2024 7:57:18 GMT -6
Yep, you don't need much water to drive a turbine but what you need is a big reservoir to supply just the right steady pressure - support isn't pushing. Like blowing through two blades of grass - you just need the right amount of pressure and those blades will sing - blast them and they'll fall silent! The blades of grass is a great visual explanation. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 11, 2024 14:19:15 GMT -6
Sounds almost like the Jazz Guitarist who plays 30 chords in his set. To 100 people. Whereas the Rock Guitarist plays 3. To 10,000. (I keed I keed) As a gigging jazz guitarist, I can tell you it's more like 4 people. ...and 3 of them want me to stop. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2024 15:19:34 GMT -6
They’re in accord then.
4 out of 5 Dentists recommend more…
Drilling.
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 11, 2024 15:30:31 GMT -6
They’re in accord then. 4 out of 5 Dentists recommend more… Drilling. A Honda... Accordion. |
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Post by chessparov on Nov 11, 2024 15:44:59 GMT -6
I am working on improving my vocal technique for singing my own demo's - I've been told I can do it by her (my coach) - I just need to work on a lot of things - she is kind but direct and demanding - I don't get off easy with her. So in my lesson today I raise a question about how I can sing something like "All I Ask Of You" from Phantom and feel good about the tone/timber but that I can't translate a similar tone/timber over to a Country singing style. I felt like with more of a Country style, its like my voice gets a blanket put over it. She goes "show me." So I do a rendition of the first verse of "All I Ask..." and before I even finish she goes, ok, I know whats up - you need a lesson in Opera. Not the answer I was expecting, as I am trying to sing country, but I go with it. She proceeds to walk me through proper posture, shoulders back, elongating the torso to make room for more air, etc. And then we do a couple vocal exercises of holding the word "No" as long as I can at full volume and apparently I wasn't. She kept taunting me with "More" much like the Phantom taunts Christine with "Sing!" - well, maybe not quite like that. I sounded like I have never heard myself sound before (in a good way). It was quite the workout. I played Trumpet for 25 years so how I used air playing Trumpet is very different from how I need to use it singing. So now muscles and body parts in the upper torso I didn't know I have are quite sore. Everything (almost) is different from playing trumpet and I really have to think about whats going on - not used to the level of physical demand and nuance that singing requires. I have no ambitions for Opera, except for the techniques that can help me sing better for Country, or just in general. Today was quite eye opening and marginally painful in many muscles. And somehow I know today is just a snowflake on the iceberg.... I dunno. Maybe start with something easier… Like “Nessun Dormatory”. Lucky Luciano meets Billie Eilish. |
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- she is kind but direct and demanding - I don't get off easy with her. 
)
