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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 14:42:09 GMT -6
Which DAWs have dual buffers? The biggest reason I'm still on Luna is because of the ease of workflow transition between recording and mixing. Recording and mixing kind of just morph between one another because of the automatic switching between DSP and native plugins, and all at really low latency for tracks which are being recorded. It's a really nice feature.
However, UA is a damn dumpster fire, and I'm considering leaving their ecosystem. I haven't made my mind up yet, but if I do decide to leave, I need to identify alternatives.
I think I'm pretty sold on the idea of going with Lynx Aurora (n) if I dump the Apollos. The biggest question mark I have is what sort of DAW might I use instead?
I've read about the dual buffer thing, but I'm not sure which DAWs offer this feature and how seamless or easy it is to use in practice.
The big benefit with Luna is not having to think about buffers and what not, similar to the Pro Tools hybrid engine. I'm not making a move to Pro Tools though, so that's not an option.
If PT is out, and so is Luna, I'm pretty much left with a 100% native option. So what do I need to know about dual buffers and which DAWs have them? What do you like or dislike about them? I like the idea of being able to leave the session at a higher more reliable buffer, and just run tracks that are actually being recorded at a lower buffer, but I'm not sure how easy that sort of workflow is to manage in practice?
Do any of these DAWs have have a feature where, when a track is armed for record, it automatically drops the buffer for that track(s) down to the lower buffer, and then automatically puts it back into the higher buffer when you unarm the track? What sort of latency are you getting with these lower buffers?
As far as I'm aware, Reaper doesn't have this feature. I'm pretty sure Studio One does, but I've never used it so I don't know how it is to use that with that DAW. I'm not sure about any other DAWs though.
Also, I should add that I typically record at 96k, and I want to be able to monitor thru plugins while recording.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 17:09:23 GMT -6
Studio One low latency monitoring is like a magic trick. Works for VI's too.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 17:11:31 GMT -6
Caveat. Some plugins have too much latency and S1 disables them in that mode. Pretty much the ones you'd expect. Anything with DSP processing (UAD) and any big heavy plugs on their high settings.
Most stuff is fine though.
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 17:20:18 GMT -6
Caveat. Some plugins have too much latency and S1 disables them in that mode. Pretty much the ones you'd expect. Anything with DSP processing (UAD) and any big heavy plugs on their high settings. Most stuff is fine though. I'd be okay with that. I don't need super latent plugins or DSP processed plugins in that scenario. It'd be an all native situation if I made this move, though I might keep a Satellite around for some UAD plugins during mixing, if there are some that I feel I couldn't do without. On a side note, I've been impressed by what I've seen of hardware inserts in S1. It seems to be the best implementation I've seen. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 17:22:08 GMT -6
Studio One low latency monitoring is like a magic trick. Works for VI's too. Does it work automatically, in the way that I described in my first post? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Oct 10, 2024 17:23:05 GMT -6
Doesn’t Cubase?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 17:29:38 GMT -6
Studio One low latency monitoring is like a magic trick. Works for VI's too. Does it work automatically, in the way that I described in my first post? Yes. You just click a little toggle on the master track. And S1 pipeline is awesome. Very easy. Don't get me wrong, the software is not perfect but you happen to highlighted it's two best features |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 17:34:21 GMT -6
Does it work automatically, in the way that I described in my first post? Yes. You just click a little toggle on the master track. And S1 pipeline is awesome. Very easy. Don't get me wrong, the software is not perfect but you happen to highlighted it's two best features They happen to be two of the most important features to me. I'm not someone who gets super off into the weeds in a DAW. I mostly use it as a basic tape machine and mixing tool. That's part of what appealed to me about Luna. It was fairly simple and unbogged down by a ton of shit. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 17:34:45 GMT -6
I don't know. Sounds like a Heightenor question. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 17:36:56 GMT -6
Does it work automatically, in the way that I described in my first post? Yes. You just click a little toggle on the master track. And S1 pipeline is awesome. Very easy. Don't get me wrong, the software is not perfect but you happen to highlighted it's two best features When you click the the toggle on the master track, I assume every track that is record enabled will then switch to the low latency buffer? What kind of latency are you getting? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 18:05:28 GMT -6
Yes. You just click a little toggle on the master track. And S1 pipeline is awesome. Very easy. Don't get me wrong, the software is not perfect but you happen to highlighted it's two best features When you click the the toggle on the master track, I assume every track that is record enabled will then switch to the low latency buffer? What kind of latency are you getting? Exactly. You toggle it on master track and then anything record enabled automatically goes to Low Latency Mode and automatically disables plugins that can't comply. The plugins that work get highlighted in green, the ones that are bypassed get highlighted in blue. I actually just tracked a guitar part on a big mix and used this mode (replaced the Santana part from my other thread) so I can check the actual numbers, but the latency is so low it feels like zero. When I'm running lean I'm able to get 2ms RTL and in Low Latency mode it's lower than that. I don't really understand how it works but I've done so many tests to verify that the calculations all work out that I'm now just in accepting mode. I can't follow the explanations for how they're doing it, but my own experiments prove that what it does sounds great and is sample accurate. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 18:09:28 GMT -6
Yes. You just click a little toggle on the master track. And S1 pipeline is awesome. Very easy. Don't get me wrong, the software is not perfect but you happen to highlighted it's two best features They happen to be two of the most important features to me. I'm not someone who gets super off into the weeds in a DAW. I mostly use it as a basic tape machine and mixing tool. That's part of what appealed to me about Luna. It was fairly simple and unbogged down by a ton of shit. Me too. We've talked about this before, I think our approaches are pretty similar. What I liked about Studio One was all the things I just mentioned plus basic stuff like how easy bus creation is and things like that. You really kind of forget the DAW is there. It's also great for all your external devices because the macro builder is very powerful. Not quite as powerful as Reaper (insane but too much) but I'm told it's close to Cubase. You'd also like the virtual consoles in Studio One if you use similar in Luna. I ended up ditching my RND Orbit because I realized I could get the sound I was looking for almost perfectly with a combo of S1 Mix FX and my Silver Bullet. It works pretty much exactly the same way as Luna with a few inconsequential differences. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 18:12:27 GMT -6
When you click the the toggle on the master track, I assume every track that is record enabled will then switch to the low latency buffer? What kind of latency are you getting? Exactly. You toggle it on master track and then anything record enabled automatically goes to Low Latency Mode and automatically disables plugins that can't comply. The plugins that work get highlighted in green, the ones that are bypassed get highlighted in blue. I actually just tracked a guitar part on a big mix and used this mode (replaced the Santana part from my other thread) so I can check the actual numbers, but the latency is so low it feels like zero. When I'm running lean I'm able to get 2ms RTL and in Low Latency mode it's lower than that. I don't really understand how it works but I've done so many tests to verify that the calculations all work out that I'm now just in accepting mode. I can't follow the explanations for how they're doing it, but my own experiments prove that what it does sounds great and is sample accurate. Nice. That's Apollo level low latency. What kind of buffer is the low latency mode? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 18:28:47 GMT -6
Exactly. You toggle it on master track and then anything record enabled automatically goes to Low Latency Mode and automatically disables plugins that can't comply. The plugins that work get highlighted in green, the ones that are bypassed get highlighted in blue. I actually just tracked a guitar part on a big mix and used this mode (replaced the Santana part from my other thread) so I can check the actual numbers, but the latency is so low it feels like zero. When I'm running lean I'm able to get 2ms RTL and in Low Latency mode it's lower than that. I don't really understand how it works but I've done so many tests to verify that the calculations all work out that I'm now just in accepting mode. I can't follow the explanations for how they're doing it, but my own experiments prove that what it does sounds great and is sample accurate. Nice. That's Apollo level low latency. What kind of buffer is the low latency mode? I don't really understand how it works. From what I understand the Low Latency Mode plays the recorded signal in its own monitoring chain and then the rest of the tracks and any plugins are in a different monitoring chain. And both are processed separately. So you hear the recorded signal as fast as your AD/DA can give it to you and then the rest they do some processing voodoo to make it sound close enough that you can't tell the difference. I'm VERY sensitive to latency and it sounds virtually identical to direct monitoring. Not sure if that's what you meant by "what kind of buffer". |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 18:35:50 GMT -6
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 18:40:08 GMT -6
Nice. That's Apollo level low latency. What kind of buffer is the low latency mode? I don't really understand how it works. From what I understand the Low Latency Mode plays the recorded signal in its own monitoring chain and then the rest of the tracks and any plugins are in a different monitoring chain. And both are processed separately. So you hear the recorded signal as fast as your AD/DA can give it to you and then the rest they do some processing voodoo to make it sound close enough that you can't tell the difference. I'm VERY sensitive to latency and it sounds virtually identical to direct monitoring. Not sure if that's what you meant by "what kind of buffer". This is encouraging info. You've got me thinking... By kind of buffer, I meant how low was the buffer? 64? 32? 16? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 19:23:06 GMT -6
I don't really understand how it works. From what I understand the Low Latency Mode plays the recorded signal in its own monitoring chain and then the rest of the tracks and any plugins are in a different monitoring chain. And both are processed separately. So you hear the recorded signal as fast as your AD/DA can give it to you and then the rest they do some processing voodoo to make it sound close enough that you can't tell the difference. I'm VERY sensitive to latency and it sounds virtually identical to direct monitoring. Not sure if that's what you meant by "what kind of buffer". This is encouraging info. You've got me thinking... By kind of buffer, I meant how low was the buffer? 64? 32? 16? It's totally independent of buffer. It's processed separately. So I usually run it at like 512 if I'm using low latency mode. |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 19:50:37 GMT -6
This is encouraging info. You've got me thinking... By kind of buffer, I meant how low was the buffer? 64? 32? 16? It's totally independent of buffer. It's processed separately. So I usually run it at like 512 if I'm using low latency mode. But the low latency is a secondary buffer of some kind, no? Just a much smaller buffer. Or at least that's what I thought it would be. Also, I've been thinking about the macro thing, which S1 and Cubase both have. It would be so nice to just be able to control a bunch of things in the DAW without having to resort to the sort of workarounds I've been doing with Keyboard Maestro in Luna. Granted, I've actually figured out how to do some really cool things, but it's taken a LOT of work to do it. Does S1 have hardware midi control? I'm sure it has MCU as well, but I'd be curious if it has the ability to also be controlled by midi. What interfaces are you using? Typical sample rate? Typical number of tracks? Would you S1 is more Mac focused or more PC focused? Or it more or less down the middle? I might have to buy you a beer sometime and pick your brain some more about this. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 20:30:42 GMT -6
It's totally independent of buffer. It's processed separately. So I usually run it at like 512 if I'm using low latency mode. But the low latency is a secondary buffer of some kind, no? Just a much smaller buffer. Or at least that's what I thought it would be. Also, I've been thinking about the macro thing, which S1 and Cubase both have. It would be so nice to just be able to control a bunch of things in the DAW without having to resort to the sort of workarounds I've been doing with Keyboard Maestro in Luna. Granted, I've actually figured out how to do some really cool things, but it's taken a LOT of work to do it. Does S1 have hardware midi control? I'm sure it has MCU as well, but I'd be curious if it has the ability to also be controlled by midi. What interfaces are you using? Typical sample rate? Typical number of tracks? Would you S1 is more Mac focused or more PC focused? Or it more or less down the middle? I might have to buy you a beer sometime and pick your brain some more about this. 1) It's a separate monitoring path. You don't set the buffer it runs a side path directly from the interface. I'm not sure how it works internally, a bit of black box. All I know is it is instant. 2) Yes, it's very easy to map. Extremely easy. 3) I am using MOTU 828es, AO24, AI24, AVB Ultralite, and Cranborne ADAT500. I've also used Apollo x8 and x4 on S1. I usually run 24bit/48khz and typically around 15 or 20 instrument tracks (not counting stereo tracks as two), 10 or so FX busses, 7 or 8 mix busses, and a couple AUX channels. Usually I'm running 10 or 12 instances of Pipeline as well. 4) I'm mixing on a Mac Mini M1 (16gb) and it bogs down if I've got too much stuff on the mix bus. But that's not unique to S1. In my non-scientific observation S1 is about as CPU efficient as Logic but less so than Reaper. From what I see in the forums S1 seems to be a bit more Mac centric but I could be totally wrong about that. Beers always welcome. Overdue! |
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Post by sirthought on Oct 10, 2024 20:32:57 GMT -6
Since S1 is Presonus, you'd probably want to look at the Presonus fader controllers. I've never used either, but I've read the capabilities for the controller are higher than with other DAWs.
I don't know if things still work this way, but it used to be that using the Apogee interfaces with Logic work just like with Luna. You wouldn't need to jump back and forth with something like Console.
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 20:36:40 GMT -6
But the low latency is a secondary buffer of some kind, no? Just a much smaller buffer. Or at least that's what I thought it would be. Also, I've been thinking about the macro thing, which S1 and Cubase both have. It would be so nice to just be able to control a bunch of things in the DAW without having to resort to the sort of workarounds I've been doing with Keyboard Maestro in Luna. Granted, I've actually figured out how to do some really cool things, but it's taken a LOT of work to do it. Does S1 have hardware midi control? I'm sure it has MCU as well, but I'd be curious if it has the ability to also be controlled by midi. What interfaces are you using? Typical sample rate? Typical number of tracks? Would you S1 is more Mac focused or more PC focused? Or it more or less down the middle? I might have to buy you a beer sometime and pick your brain some more about this. 1) It's a separate monitoring path. You don't set the buffer it runs a side path directly from the interface. I'm not sure how it works internally, a bit of black box. All I know is it is instant. 2) Yes, it's very easy to map. Extremely easy. 3) I am using MOTU 828es, AO24, AI24, AVB Ultralite, and Cranborne ADAT500. I've also used Apollo x8 and x4 on S1. I usually run 24bit/48khz and typically around 15 or 20 instrument tracks (not counting stereo tracks as two), 10 or so FX busses, 7 or 8 mix busses, and a couple AUX channels. Usually I'm running 10 or 12 instances of Pipeline as well. 4) I'm mixing on a Mac Mini M1 (16gb) and it bogs down if I've got too much stuff on the mix bus. But that's not unique to S1. In my non-scientific observation S1 is about as CPU efficient as Logic but less so than Reaper. From what I see in the forums S1 seems to be a bit more Mac centric but I could be totally wrong about that. Beers always welcome. Overdue! Yeah, we should meet up for a beer sometime in the next few weeks, if you're available. One other question: Just to be clear, your monitoring thru S1, correct? No interface mixer being used, other than maybe initial routing, correct? |
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 20:39:19 GMT -6
Since S1 is Presonus, you'd probably want to look at the Presonus fader controllers. I've never used either, but I've read the capabilities for the controller are higher than with other DAWs. I don't know if things still work this way, but it used to be that using the Apogee interfaces with Logic work just like with Luna. You wouldn't need to jump back and forth with something like Console. My hopes are to just monitor thru the DAW, at low latency, without even needing to use the built in mixer in the interface. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 20:45:09 GMT -6
Since S1 is Presonus, you'd probably want to look at the Presonus fader controllers. I've never used either, but I've read the capabilities for the controller are higher than with other DAWs. I don't know if things still work this way, but it used to be that using the Apogee interfaces with Logic work just like with Luna. You wouldn't need to jump back and forth with something like Console. My hopes are to just monitor thru the DAW, at low latency, without even needing to use the built in mixer in the interface. Correct. I sometimes monitor directly through the Cranborne when I'm doing acoustic stuff just cuz it's really easy (plug in headphones) but when I'm overdubbing I go through the DAW, yes. I wouldn't even know how to use MOTU's mixer even if I wanted to (which I don't). I'm gonna be traveling for the next two weeks but you're welcome to pop up here to the home studio for a demonstration. In the tracking room I'm set up to monitor through the board (I could rewire pretty easily I guess) but the mixing room is exactly as you describe and works exactly as you are hoping. It's a piece of cake. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 10, 2024 21:25:16 GMT -6
Quint I have a question for you. Have you looked at the Metric Halo universe? I'm always considering upgrading my mixing interface and have my eye on that world kind of casually. I could get pretty close to an even swap by selling my MOTU 828es / Orbit / and JoeCo Blackbox the latter two of which I'm barely even using anymore.
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Post by Quint on Oct 10, 2024 22:15:50 GMT -6
Quint I have a question for you. Have you looked at the Metric Halo universe? I'm always considering upgrading my mixing interface and have my eye on that world kind of casually. I could get pretty close to an even swap by selling my MOTU 828es / Orbit / and JoeCo Blackbox the latter two of which I'm barely even using anymore. I haven't. The amount of I/O I need always kind of kept me from looking at 8 channel interfaces. None of their interfaces are more than 8, right? |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Oct 11, 2024 6:49:13 GMT -6
Quint I have a question for you. Have you looked at the Metric Halo universe? I'm always considering upgrading my mixing interface and have my eye on that world kind of casually. I could get pretty close to an even swap by selling my MOTU 828es / Orbit / and JoeCo Blackbox the latter two of which I'm barely even using anymore. I haven't. The amount of I/O I need always kind of kept me from looking at 8 channel interfaces. None of their interfaces are more than 8, right? Yeah I guess not on the analog side. A lot of my I/O in mixing comes from ADAT (or AVB) so an ADAT card would be enough with MH in my case. |
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Post by svart on Oct 11, 2024 7:08:36 GMT -6
I just tracked a whole band all at once:
Guitar 1: 2x DI (pre and post effects)
Guitar 2: 2x DI (pre and post effects)
Bass: DI
Drums: 12 channels.
Monitored through 2x guitar sims, bass sim, compression, EQ on most of the channels.
My latency was about 5ms through Reaper with MOTU 24ai and 828es over AVB and CPU utilization was around 40% at a buffer of 256. I tried 128 but the bass sim seemed to be unhappy there.
However, during tracking, I also look at Reaper's performance list and disable anything with high DPC latency like anything with modulation (dedicated reverbs) or look ahead processing (limiters) because those will ALWAYS have high latency by design. There is no way to lessen the latency on something like those.
I don't think Reaper itself is a problem with latency. It's how the drivers of an audio system handle the streams. With my old SSL MX4 DSP card I would run mostly DSP based plugins and I would still get about 5ms latency due to the processing overhead of ANY plugin.
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Post by lowlou on Oct 11, 2024 7:29:31 GMT -6
On Reaper, you create custom actions that allow to switch buffers. You create buttons for it, on a toolbar, somewhere convenient on your screen.
Then it's a one click affair.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 11, 2024 8:28:25 GMT -6
Since S1 is Presonus, you'd probably want to look at the Presonus fader controllers. I've never used either, but I've read the capabilities for the controller are higher than with other DAWs. I don't know if things still work this way, but it used to be that using the Apogee interfaces with Logic work just like with Luna. You wouldn't need to jump back and forth with something like Console. My hopes are to just monitor thru the DAW, at low latency, without even needing to use the built in mixer in the interface. I do this with logic. I use ob when tracking. There is a low latency mode but I don’t use it much. I think Logic now has a demo period, since you are on Mac, maybe just try it and see how you get along? |
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 11, 2024 8:29:44 GMT -6
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