mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Oct 1, 2024 16:54:14 GMT -6
You can chalk this up as inexperience or a lack of skill but I spent an ENTIRE DAY messing with a 2-track mix, ITB, I did so many revisions until I finally had something that was really good and better than the original mix and previous ITB revisions, after doing some A/B.
I then A/B’d with my OTB mix which was done in maybe 30 minutes using a hardware chain with little to no thought, I was disappointed in myself but relieved at the same time, I realized this was the “finished” mix, It was the sound I was chasing. (Been a while since I heard the OTB mix, I didn’t think anything of it since it was done so quickly..) I haven’t tried using the OTB mix as a reference but maybe I can get it closer that way. I definitely feel not as skilled as I assumed.
I could be biased and this post exposes me as a noob but it was just so fast and easy to get a finished sounding mix OTB. There’s certainly things you can do ITB that you can’t do out and vice versa both have their places.
but, people are always trying to convince against it since the top mixers are ITB and if you can’t get there it’s your lack of expertise and hardware won’t help you, i’m left feeling like a crazy and unskilled person. Do I need to get the hardware to start feeling more satisfaction from my mixes?
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Post by Tbone81 on Oct 1, 2024 17:07:44 GMT -6
Regardless of ITB vs OTB one thing I think is really true is that fast mixes, where you’re shooting from the hip, making decisions and not overthinking things, often sound better. We very quickly loose reference and our ears/brian is so damn good at compensating for everything.
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Post by drumsound on Oct 1, 2024 17:13:03 GMT -6
Regardless of ITB vs OTB one thing I think is really true is that fast mixes, where you’re shooting from the hip, making decisions and not overthinking things, often sound better. We very quickly loose reference and our ears/brian is so damn good at compensating for everything. These are sage words!
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Post by the other mark williams on Oct 1, 2024 17:25:18 GMT -6
Regardless of ITB vs OTB one thing I think is really true is that fast mixes, where you’re shooting from the hip, making decisions and not overthinking things, often sound better. We very quickly loose reference and our ears/brian is so damn good at compensating for everything. THIS
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Post by drbill on Oct 1, 2024 18:13:20 GMT -6
but, people are always trying to convince against it since the top mixers are ITB Do I need to get the hardware to start feeling more satisfaction from my mixes? 1. Top mixers MUST have total instant recall for the inevitable - dozen(s) of remix "fixes". They also have to deliver stems. They often have to deliver finalized Pro Tools sessions. That is WHY they mix ITB. 2. Yes. Get more hardware into your mixes. Go HYBRID!! For a good idea, you can check out my instagram - drbill.mojo. 120 I/o, 120 hardware inserts, 150+ pieces of wonderful analog. And a happy mixing environment. Go analog!! PS - the way my template is set up, I can do instant recall mixes in seconds. Happy camper here....
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Post by svart on Oct 1, 2024 20:21:27 GMT -6
Spent years doing hybrid mixes and when I went totally ITB, my mixes improved.
Not saying the ITB change was what did it, but I think the change of workflow did.
Moving much faster, spending far less time auditioning hardware and tweaking small amounts that ultimately don't mean anything.
I will say that tons of hardware taught me a lot that I use in my ITB mixes, and that's probably why they're better, I know how to use the tools at hand and move a ton faster.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 1, 2024 21:07:47 GMT -6
imo analog and consoles are way more tangible to use and not to mention way more fun to use, they set you apart especially these days, you might want to look into multi buss passive summing and returning via pre amp makeup gain back into the box, amazing what a couple op amps and transformers can do to get you there. On more than one occasion i've had weird in the box mixes beat the shit out of me and then i finally round tripped every track through pre amps(insert vp28's here) and they were instantly better.
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Post by drumsound on Oct 1, 2024 21:54:20 GMT -6
imo analog and consoles are way more tangible to use and not to mention way more fun to use, they set you apart especially these days, you might want to look into multi buss passive summing and returning via pre amp makeup gain back into the box, amazing what a couple op amps and transformers can do to get you there. On more than one occasion i've had weird in the box mixes beat the shit out of me and then i finally round tripped every track through pre amps(insert vp28's here) and they were instantly better. I had a console long before I had a DAW, so for me, it's always been in the picture. It's not a majorly colorful console, but it has a sound. When I added PT I decided to learn it and use for all the things one wants a PT for (esp recall). Since the console was there, I use for summing and for mix bus inserts. I used to use more outboard FX, and I'm thinking about a rewiring job to aid that. So I think we're in similar lands, and I do think it helps. Or it makes me feel good that I use the console for something beyond tracking.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 2, 2024 0:58:13 GMT -6
You can chalk this up as inexperience or a lack of skill but I spent an ENTIRE DAY messing with a 2-track mix, ITB, I did so many revisions until I finally had something that was really good and better than the original mix and previous ITB revisions, after doing some A/B. I then A/B’d with my OTB mix which was done in maybe 30 minutes using a hardware chain with little to no thought, I was disappointed in myself but relieved at the same time, I realized this was the “finished” mix, It was the sound I was chasing. (Been a while since I heard the OTB mix, I didn’t think anything of it since it was done so quickly..) I haven’t tried using the OTB mix as a reference but maybe I can get it closer that way. I definitely feel not as skilled as I assumed. I could be biased and this post exposes me as a noob but it was just so fast and easy to get a finished sounding mix OTB. There’s certainly things you can do ITB that you can’t do out and vice versa both have their places. but, people are always trying to convince against it since the top mixers are ITB and if you can’t get there it’s your lack of expertise and hardware won’t help you, i’m left feeling like a crazy and unskilled person. Do I need to get the hardware to start feeling more satisfaction from my mixes? I don't have or have ever found any plugins that can process my mixes like my hardware especially my stereo hardware chain. HEDD 192 > RMS 755 (vca) > Thermionic Phoenix MP (vari-mu) > Thermionic Swift (tube EQ) > HEDD 192 So yes, this is top down mixing, and it feels like cheating (I don't care how I get there) it makes mixing so easy, add this chain and there's a beautiful expensive sounding gloss and stereo depth immediately added to the mix. These units are not adding that much saturation - they are actually quite clean sounding units with enormous bandwidth - but the results are truly fantastic to my ears. In comparison plugins sound flat and 2 dimensional to my ears - I've ABX tested lot's of non musicians and they can pick the difference immediately! The BIGGER question is .... Does it matter - and here in 2024 with tight budgets, AI EQ, AI drums, AI mastering .... AI who knows what .... and your audience on ear buds 95% on the time - well probably not. But it matters to me and that's all the justification I need to make the extra effort and mix with hardware on the main channels (vocals, bass, drums, leads) and the stereo bus. I want my music to sound as fabulous as it possibly can and that means great hardware tracking and mixing.
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Post by poppaflavor on Oct 2, 2024 4:16:49 GMT -6
Do I need to get the hardware to start feeling more satisfaction from my mixes? It's quite wise how your phrased this. 'Feeling satisfaction' rather than 'delivering objectively better mixes'. For me at least, when the hardware gear is special and simple in it's purpose I get tons of satisfaction from my mixes. When ITB I'm decidedly dissatisfied. I can't claim that my mixes are any different in quality. But, I work on a computer all day and the very last thing on the planet I want to do is create music on a computer as well. And, I'll submit that getting satisfied with our mixing process (even if not the mixes themselves) ultimately helps make better mixes than one which frustrates us. It's a bit like the question of what exercise works best for someone to lose weight? Answer- the the exercise they enjoy and will stick with.
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Post by nobtwiddler on Oct 2, 2024 18:47:11 GMT -6
Personally, I've done countless ITB mixes, verses my console, or my summing setup. I've even gone as far as to do mixes where I limited myself to using only the exact outboard that I physically own, against the same plug ins I own, to match things as close as I could.
That said, NEVER once has the ITB mix touched the summed thru the Analog section of either setup sonically.
Never.
Now did my ITB mixes sound good, yes, and at that time, I (thought) I was totally happy with them...
That was, UNTIL, I played the Analog Summed mix...and made a direct comparison.
At that point I was totally depressed, (and kinda happy at the same time) for what I thought was a finished mix ITB, was no where sonically near the Analog summed version.
Go figure
Now, I've read every damn thread over the last 10 or so years about how great so and so's mixes are ITB. (insert any famous ITB mix engineers)
And I believe some of them do sound wonderful...
BUT !!!!!!!
Have any of these engineers done a direct and FAIR comparison of their ITB MIX, verses a spread out thru a Analog console mix? And posted it for us all to hear.
If so, I never knew of any...
If it was done as fairly as possible, I do believe that would be quite telling
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 3, 2024 1:51:09 GMT -6
My entire thought process on this dilemma has really evolved through the years. I've landed on the conclusion that: the quality of your recordings/stems are going to be the biggest factor that contributes to the quality of your mix.
- A lot of professional mix engineers who have names work with producers who almost always deliver a level of recordings above a certain quality floor. Some times I watch a pro mixer go through a session and his stems already sound pre-mixed and pre-mixed WELL, and theres really not that much time the mixer has to spend on the mix to get it to all work. If you're dealing with stems that aren't recorded professionally, it is extremely difficult to get a professional sound, unless your a mixing wizard, then you can make anything work - I'm certainly not though and I've noticed this common thread in most of the mixing tutorial videos I've watched from pro mixers.
So now I focus on getting the best recordings I can, then the mix becomes WAY easier. I focus on my microphones, my recording chain, and biggest of all - treating the room im recording in, then of even more importance than that comes the performance.. Sometimes with a great performance you no longer are worrying about whether to boost 5k 2db cause its so good you're just thinking "yeah, its fine, it works" - sometimes lackluster performances can make you chase your tail in the mix for something you will never find.
That being said I do think hardware is fantastic and great for workflow/mixing horsepower if you incorporate it to where its convenient in your set up, I like using hardware inserts. Digital is also fantastic and I love my tokyo dawn/Leapwing plugins etc etc... great for very detailed tweaking of things, clean up, improvements to the balance of the mix etc. Hybrid is the only way to go if you do any recording IMO.
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Post by tonycamphd on Oct 3, 2024 7:56:50 GMT -6
My entire thought process on this dilemma has really evolved through the years. I've landed on the conclusion that: the quality of your recordings/stems are going to be the biggest factor that contributes to the quality of your mix.
- A lot of professional mix engineers who have names work with producers who almost always deliver a level of recordings above a certain quality floor. Some times I watch a pro mixer go through a session and his stems already sound pre-mixed and pre-mixed WELL, and theres really not that much time the mixer has to spend on the mix to get it to all work. If you're dealing with stems that aren't recorded professionally, it is extremely difficult to get a professional sound, unless your a mixing wizard, then you can make anything work - I'm certainly not though and I've noticed this common thread in most of the mixing tutorial videos I've watched from pro mixers.
So now I focus on getting the best recordings I can, then the mix becomes WAY easier. I focus on my microphones, my recording chain, and biggest of all - treating the room im recording in, then of even more importance than that comes the performance.. Sometimes with a great performance you no longer are worrying about whether to boost 5k 2db cause its so good you're just thinking "yeah, its fine, it works" - sometimes lackluster performances can make you chase your tail in the mix for something you will never find.
That being said I do think hardware is fantastic and great for workflow/mixing horsepower if you incorporate it to where its convenient in your set up, I like using hardware inserts. Digital is also fantastic and I love my tokyo dawn/Leapwing plugins etc etc... great for very detailed tweaking of things, clean up, improvements to the balance of the mix etc. Hybrid is the only way to go if you do any recording IMO.
Jmo, I think a good musical mixer can make almost any tracking sound good or at least better, especially with the power to overcome available to us itb, get it done. That said, my experience aligns with knobtwiddler, if it didn’t I wouldn’t have all this hardware (there was a mix contest thread here a long time ago where people were complaining about the poor tracking and some guys did good mixing it anyway)
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Post by christopher on Oct 3, 2024 11:16:04 GMT -6
I started ITB back in.. 1998? I was an early ITB guy, but also saw right away plugins were a money grab. The first plugins I knew of had no GUI’s just some sliders. Everyone said they were terrible, but they worked fine to me! I felt if talent was there, then who cares?. But as soon as they made them with graphics like analog gear, engineers got hyped on them. Just combine a distortion plugin with an EQ shape, compression plugin, parallel processing or multiband, cover it in a pretty graphic= $$$
I could tell this is what many companies were doing, so I would make my own chains using boring stock plugins and free plugins, use parallel routing to create my own “LA2A” or “1073” or whatever sexy plugin of the day was. The more I did this, made my own recipes, the more I felt how fake it sounded. And also the more fake I noticed the expensive plugins sounding, just like my recipes. And at the time, lots of studios still used SSL consoles and was mastered on analog gear. So all plugins sounded like trash compared to any major release.
But then 2008 busted all the studios.. and in the recovery, ITB could be done on a MacBook, by anyone with ears. And then streaming music killed all music sales.. which allowed anyone at home using plugins could now be famous on social media. The craptastic ITB sound was now becoming norm, and the dense analog sound was old hat. The hollow lower mids and raspy top end became the hot thing. But also.. they could send that mix to a mastering guy and they’d run it through tubes and etc and give it a much improved song signature.
So sure the pros can work ITB and be happy. Headphones won’t reveal the difference much. They can let mastering give it some analog magic, or go straight to streaming community who will eat it up anyway, or not. No cost to throw it out there, no huge loss if nobody cares.
So yeah.. it’s been a 26 year battle in my head, lol.. never want to give up on ITB, never happy with it either 😂
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mrcel0
Junior Member
Posts: 88
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Post by mrcel0 on Oct 3, 2024 12:17:49 GMT -6
I started ITB back in.. 1998? I was an early ITB guy, but also saw right away plugins were a money grab. The first plugins I knew of had no GUI’s just some sliders. Everyone said they were terrible, but they worked fine to me! I felt if talent was there, then who cares?. But as soon as they made them with graphics like analog gear, engineers got hyped on them. Just combine a distortion plugin with an EQ shape, compression plugin, parallel processing or multiband, cover it in a pretty graphic= $$$ I could tell this is what many companies were doing, so I would make my own chains using boring stock plugins and free plugins, use parallel routing to create my own “LA2A” or “1073” or whatever sexy plugin of the day was. The more I did this, made my own recipes, the more I felt how fake it sounded. And also the more fake I noticed the expensive plugins sounding, just like my recipes. And at the time, lots of studios still used SSL consoles and was mastered on analog gear. So all plugins sounded like trash compared to any major release. But then 2008 busted all the studios.. and in the recovery, ITB could be done on a MacBook, by anyone with ears. And then streaming music killed all music sales.. which allowed anyone at home using plugins could now be famous on social media. The craptastic ITB sound was now becoming norm, and the dense analog sound was old hat. The hollow lower mids and raspy top end became the hot thing. But also.. they could send that mix to a mastering guy and they’d run it through tubes and etc and give it a much improved song signature. So sure the pros can work ITB and be happy. Headphones won’t reveal the difference much. They can let mastering give it some analog magic, or go straight to streaming community who will eat it up anyway, or not. No cost to throw it out there, no huge loss if nobody cares. So yeah.. it’s been a 26 year battle in my head, lol.. never want to give up on ITB, never happy with it either 😂 You started ITB when I was born.. I grew up in the mp3/daw/vst era, my first daw I ever used was on a ipod touch and it even had autotune.. As a kid I used to think that being a producer on the computer was not as talented as say being in a band 😂 I guess you become what you hate. For someone like me, analog is a revelation, in a time where most artists who built a following in my age don’t pay attention to stuff like analog gear and room treatments because it hasn’t mattered for a long time now and you might be able to clearly hear that in the music that’s reflected. I was never given an opportunity to learn about/ use any analog gear; even being in different studios in LA I would never hear stuff like that discussed between the artist or engineer.. I assume others in my age range would have similar experiences, and analog gear was highly inaccessible and therefore not really discussed, I think it’s really great that today you have many high quality low cost gear accessible to the average home studio. I see the emulation plugins as a double edged sword because for someone like me this is HOW I learned what the gear is and could potentially do but way better in real life, they also taught many people how plugins really work under the hood, but created a market that promises stuff I don’t think it can really fulfill, not to say they’re all bad.
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Post by OtisGreying on Oct 3, 2024 15:18:18 GMT -6
My entire thought process on this dilemma has really evolved through the years. I've landed on the conclusion that: the quality of your recordings/stems are going to be the biggest factor that contributes to the quality of your mix.
- A lot of professional mix engineers who have names work with producers who almost always deliver a level of recordings above a certain quality floor. Some times I watch a pro mixer go through a session and his stems already sound pre-mixed and pre-mixed WELL, and theres really not that much time the mixer has to spend on the mix to get it to all work. If you're dealing with stems that aren't recorded professionally, it is extremely difficult to get a professional sound, unless your a mixing wizard, then you can make anything work - I'm certainly not though and I've noticed this common thread in most of the mixing tutorial videos I've watched from pro mixers.
So now I focus on getting the best recordings I can, then the mix becomes WAY easier. I focus on my microphones, my recording chain, and biggest of all - treating the room im recording in, then of even more importance than that comes the performance.. Sometimes with a great performance you no longer are worrying about whether to boost 5k 2db cause its so good you're just thinking "yeah, its fine, it works" - sometimes lackluster performances can make you chase your tail in the mix for something you will never find.
That being said I do think hardware is fantastic and great for workflow/mixing horsepower if you incorporate it to where its convenient in your set up, I like using hardware inserts. Digital is also fantastic and I love my tokyo dawn/Leapwing plugins etc etc... great for very detailed tweaking of things, clean up, improvements to the balance of the mix etc. Hybrid is the only way to go if you do any recording IMO.
Jmo, I think a good musical mixer can make almost any tracking sound good or at least better, especially with the power to overcome available to us itb, get it done. That said, my experience aligns with knobtwiddler, if it didn’t I wouldn’t have all this hardware (there was a mix contest thread here a long time ago where people were complaining about the poor tracking and some guys did a good mixing it anyway) Definitely I think a really talented mixer can make almost anything work. But if you’re gonna be comparing your mixes with professional mixers mixes (as I have) you’re gonna find differences that don’t necessarily come down to mix choice but rather come down to how it was recorded. Like, you can make a vocal recorded with a shitty mic shitty room work and sound good, but it won’t sound like a vocal recorded on a Elam 251 at sunset sound. Doesn’t mean your mix doesn’t pass the bar, just means you shouldn’t chase your tail trying to make it sound like the Elam 251 recorded at sunset sound, because you’re wasting your time. I remember hearing a Weezer mix before Serban Ghenea mixed it, it already sounded fantastic and 95% of the way there, and people were praising serban for his genius work. The mix was already there, serban is obviously one of the best ever, but it's insightful to see what he was working with before he even lifted a finger. Anyway i think the higher quality the stems the less necessary outboard becomes. doesnt mean the same mix wouldnt be better from some outboard but pro mixers getting pro sessions from pro producers recorded in great rooms will be more likely to get a great ITB mix than someone mixing things ITB recorded in a garage, it was important for me to connect those dots so I wasn’t just thinking I was coming up short cause I sucked at mixing, it may just be the recordings
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Post by yotonic on Oct 4, 2024 17:36:42 GMT -6
Then throw in whether those high quality stems were created from sessions where artists played live together…. and were listening to each other and creating space and their own mix via dynamics.
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Post by theshea on Oct 5, 2024 0:17:30 GMT -6
very often the first level mixers also have some outboard on the mixbus. and the mastering engineer as well. so we cannot name them 100% itb mixers/mixes. and mostly those few mix/master-chain gear sums up quickly to over 10.000€ … so are we comparing that to a typically project-studio itb plugin mix/master? apples vs oranges …
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 5, 2024 2:26:25 GMT -6
I started ITB back in.. 1998? I was an early ITB guy, but also saw right away plugins were a money grab. The first plugins I knew of had no GUI’s just some sliders. Everyone said they were terrible, but they worked fine to me! I felt if talent was there, then who cares?. But as soon as they made them with graphics like analog gear, engineers got hyped on them. Just combine a distortion plugin with an EQ shape, compression plugin, parallel processing or multiband, cover it in a pretty graphic= $$$ I could tell this is what many companies were doing, so I would make my own chains using boring stock plugins and free plugins, use parallel routing to create my own “LA2A” or “1073” or whatever sexy plugin of the day was. The more I did this, made my own recipes, the more I felt how fake it sounded. And also the more fake I noticed the expensive plugins sounding, just like my recipes. And at the time, lots of studios still used SSL consoles and was mastered on analog gear. So all plugins sounded like trash compared to any major release. But then 2008 busted all the studios.. and in the recovery, ITB could be done on a MacBook, by anyone with ears. And then streaming music killed all music sales.. which allowed anyone at home using plugins could now be famous on social media. The craptastic ITB sound was now becoming norm, and the dense analog sound was old hat. The hollow lower mids and raspy top end became the hot thing. But also.. they could send that mix to a mastering guy and they’d run it through tubes and etc and give it a much improved song signature. So sure the pros can work ITB and be happy. Headphones won’t reveal the difference much. They can let mastering give it some analog magic, or go straight to streaming community who will eat it up anyway, or not. No cost to throw it out there, no huge loss if nobody cares. So yeah.. it’s been a 26 year battle in my head, lol.. never want to give up on ITB, never happy with it either 😂 So sure the pros can work in ITB and get paid. I do 99% of mixes for other people ITB, I can’t honestly say I’m happy - but they’re happy. That's works for me. For my music I mix OTB hybrid - now I’m happy. OTB is time consuming and I can only justify it for the music I put out under my own name - IME nobody wants to pay for the extra time …. so ITB is what they pay for and what they get. Easy recall, easy everything …. for making money ITB mixing makes a lot of sense.
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