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Post by whitealbum on Sept 30, 2024 3:09:13 GMT -6
Hello, in addition to my BSA M250, I have just purchased a FLEA M 251. I am surprised that the treble image of the FLEA M251 is as open and clear up to approx. 11khz as the BSA M250, although the FLEA only has an EH 6072a and the BSA M250 has a GE 5 star 6072a white labeled. The top treble of the BSA M250 from 11khz is also a little louder/more present than in the FLEA 251. I suspect this is due to the tube. Why?
A TAD HIGHGRADE 6072a was briefly used in the BSA M250, and the microphone sounded much more mid-range, with less treble. So, my question is, does a GE 5 star 6072a white labeled really provide more clarity, more tightness and more upper treble than an EH 6072a? I know this could be obvoius or only subtle.
Who has already swapped the tube in the FLEA M251 for a GE s star 6072a white? If so, what were the findings, both positive and negative? Please note: Please don't discuss other 251 clones, this is not the point of my question. I'm only interested in a possible improvement from a tube swap.
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 30, 2024 5:48:51 GMT -6
I think bowie would be the guy to ask? I’m not sure but I think the GE 5 star orange ink 6072a is the holy grail, the orange ink designating the quieter widest bandwidth operation for audio?(I could be way off or confusing this, it’s been a long time since I read about mic tubes) That said I have 2-C12 and 2-251 clones, I have the rare orange and green ink 6072’s in them and they didn’t end up in the mics by accident and only after a whole lot of comparisons In short imo the tube matters
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 30, 2024 6:14:08 GMT -6
You should check my NLP 251 episode on YouTube just to hear the impact of the GE 5* tube. I compare to versions of the NLO 251 where one uses a vintage tube. To me the GE tube gives more lowmid resolution and a clearer more open midrange. It is also a bit more saturated.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 30, 2024 8:34:00 GMT -6
I’m always a Mullard fan. Can’t remember if they call it a 6072 or 12ay7, but it was more rolled and beefier than anything else I tried.
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Post by whitealbum on Sept 30, 2024 9:20:26 GMT -6
Thanks for your input.
For your information, my background
I am already quite experienced in tube selection, and I know what tubes can do and what not. In my Tube LDC collection are: FLEA 47, FLEA 12, FLEA 49, FLEA M251, BSA M250, Gefell UM92.1s, Gefgell M990, Vanguard V13, AT4060 and CAD Trion 8000.
What I am really interested in is, how a possible tube exchange GE 5 star 6072a white labelled will affect the FLEA M251 in particular? I've got white labeled and selected medicalgrade, very good ones.
I'm also asking because interestingly the FLEA 251 sounds almost perfect, it sounds like an ELAM M251.
But since I want to achieve the last 5 per cent improvement, the question is whether a tube change with the GE really brings anything worth mentioning? Because the FLEA sounds almost perfect.
So the question to the FLEA M251 owners, how is it, is it worth or not?
:-)
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 30, 2024 9:24:23 GMT -6
This isn’t a Flea question. It will affect all of them the same way. A Mullard is going to add bottom, rolls top. Not nearly as bright as the GE.
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Post by whitealbum on Sept 30, 2024 9:29:16 GMT -6
You should check my NLP 251 episode on YouTube just to hear the impact of the GE 5* tube. I compare to versions of the NLO 251 where one uses a vintage tube. To me the GE tube gives more lowmid resolution and a clearer more open midrange. It is also a bit more saturated. Yes, I know, this i what I would expected because I Know it, that the 5star works like that (experience with my BSA M250) ON the other side, the FLEA 251 sounds nearly perfect, so it would be nice to hear from FLEA users if it is worth to swap the tube...
So, btw, christian, nice and fine singing :-)
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Post by whitealbum on Sept 30, 2024 9:35:10 GMT -6
This isn’t a Flea question. It will affect all of them the same way. A Mullard is going to add bottom, rolls top. Not nearly as bright as the GE. Okay, at the moment with the EH 6072a, FLEA has now much bottom and rolls top compared to BSA M250. So this is good, but I want a little more top highs (>11khz) Could be also a capsule design or FLEA tube circuit. So thats why i'm asking FLEA users.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 30, 2024 9:38:54 GMT -6
I’m always trying to get it darker. Anyway - if you want bright. GE 5 Star.
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Post by whitealbum on Sept 30, 2024 9:43:50 GMT -6
I think bowie would be the guy to ask? I’m not sure but I think the GE 5 star orange ink 6072a is the holy grail, the orange ink designating the quieter widest bandwidth operation for audio?(I could be way off or confusing this, it’s been a long time since I read about mic tubes) That said I have 2-C12 and 2-251 clones, I have the rare orange and green ink 6072’s in them and they didn’t end up in the mics by accident and only after a whole lot of comparisons In short imo the tube matters GE 5 star orange ink 6072a Never heard from that, or do you mean the red painted tip ones, selected medical grade?
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Post by timcampbell on Sept 30, 2024 12:14:21 GMT -6
Well I have done exactly this. Replaced the EH6072 in my Flea 251 with a GE 5 star and ended up swapping it back because there was no discernable difference.
On Another note I was just in Slovakia with Flea and compared theirs to an original and then flew to Finland and compared the Flea to 2 original very early Ela M 251s.
In every case the Flea had the exact top end of the vintage 251s but 2 of the vintage 251s had slightly less bass than the Flea or the 3rd vintage 251 because the early 251s had a slightly different transformer. I mean that we actually measured every mic in an anechoic chamber then recorded various voices, piano and guitar and did blind listening tests.
All non Flea personnel were blown away by the Flea including me. I love that mic.
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Post by bowie on Sept 30, 2024 19:04:26 GMT -6
While the GE 6072s all sound like they're from the same family, they do vary a bit as they went through numerous changes during the 35 year production run. I'd say the GE 6072 sound is natural, smooth, and articulate, relative to other 6072s. But, there's some variations in tonal balance and the level of focus or "cohesion" (tight and defined vs being more wide and diffuse). As far as differences with modern tubes go, since the GEs don't all sound the same, what differences you hear will vary on the version of the GE. I'm frequently told that users find the GEs to be smoother than Russian types. And, I often hear comments about them offering a greater sense of "depth" (which is usually a combination of fine detail and harmonics overtones). Some prefer the warmer/richer sound of the early production GEs. Others don't like the low-mid weight of those early types and prefer the more neutral aspects of the later production GEs. There's no scale of good/better/best. It's really down to the user as to which type they prefer and opinions vary greatly. Some prefer one type in a certain mic, and a different version in another mic.
As far as 5-Star goes, there's a lot of internet lore involved there. I used to do business with a retired GE engineer who worked in tube design and was told that there was no difference in 5-Star or non-5-Star when all else is equal. And, that it was mostly down to marketing and who they were selling them to. "Do you think we sent the noisy ones to the military?" he jokingly said. And, having tested thousands of 6072s over the years, I have not found the 5-Star labeled pieces to consistently be any different in quality or sound from those labeled without 5-Stars, if they were produced in the same way. Now, batches can vary, especially the early ones. GE labeled many of their high-spec tubes as 5-Star so consumers would know it's not a regular 12AY7, or 6AQ5, 12AT7, etc. I have no evidence that they went through a run and designated some pieces as 5-Star quality and other not. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. However, internet lore says otherwise so expect to pay much more for a 5-Star labeled piece because they are in much higher demand. I believe part of this fueled by the fact that the more common GE 6072s are the late run "JAN" types with green labeling. The quality of these is often poor and I believe people may have associated these lower quality pieces with being non-5-Star GE 6072s.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 1, 2024 5:07:47 GMT -6
So, non 5 star, non Jan green, typically have the more detailed sound ?
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Post by whitealbum on Oct 1, 2024 6:46:39 GMT -6
Well I have done exactly this. Replaced the EH6072 in my Flea 251 with a GE 5 star and ended up swapping it back because there was no discernable difference. On Another note I was just in Slovakia with Flea and compared theirs to an original and then flew to Finland and compared the Flea to 2 original very early Ela M 251s. In every case the Flea had the exact top end of the vintage 251s but 2 of the vintage 251s had slightly less bass than the Flea or the 3rd vintage 251 because the early 251s had a slightly different transformer. I mean that we actually measured every mic in an anechoic chamber then recorded various voices, piano and guitar and did blind listening tests. All non Flea personnel were blown away by the Flea including me. I love that mic.
Tim, thank you a lot for your experiences with FLEA 251 vs vintage ELAM 251 AND swapping the tube. These are information what I'm looking for!
Your experiences are so stunning that the two devices are really so "identical" in terms of sound.
I almost suspected your result regarding the tube swapping, because I assumed that FleA got a suitable sound result regarding vintage ELAM 251 with their selected EH 6072a.
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Post by whitealbum on Oct 1, 2024 6:51:07 GMT -6
While the GE 6072s all sound like they're from the same family, they do vary a bit as they went through numerous changes during the 35 year production run. I'd say the GE 6072 sound is natural, smooth, and articulate, relative to other 6072s. But, there's some variations in tonal balance and the level of focus or "cohesion" (tight and defined vs being more wide and diffuse). As far as differences with modern tubes go, since the GEs don't all sound the same, what differences you hear will vary on the version of the GE. I'm frequently told that users find the GEs to be smoother than Russian types. And, I often hear comments about them offering a greater sense of "depth" (which is usually a combination of fine detail and harmonics overtones). Some prefer the warmer/richer sound of the early production GEs. Others don't like the low-mid weight of those early types and prefer the more neutral aspects of the later production GEs. There's no scale of good/better/best. It's really down to the user as to which type they prefer and opinions vary greatly. Some prefer one type in a certain mic, and a different version in another mic. As far as 5-Star goes, there's a lot of internet lore involved there. I used to do business with a retired GE engineer who worked in tube design and was told that there was no difference in 5-Star or non-5-Star when all else is equal. And, that it was mostly down to marketing and who they were selling them to. "Do you think we sent the noisy ones to the military?" he jokingly said. And, having tested thousands of 6072s over the years, I have not found the 5-Star labeled pieces to consistently be any different in quality or sound from those labeled without 5-Stars. Now, batches can vary, especially the early ones. GE labeled many of their high-spec tubes as 5-Star so consumers would know it's not a regular 12AY7, or 6AQ5, 12AT7, etc. I have no evidence that they went through a run and designated some pieces as 5-Star quality and other not. That doesn't seem to be the case at all. However, internet lore says otherwise so expect to pay much more for a 5-Star labeled piece because they are in much higher demand. I believe part of this fueled by the fact that the more common GE 6072s are the late run "JAN" types with green labeling. The quality of these is often poor and I believe people may have associated these lower quality pieces with being non-5-Star GE 6072s. Thank you for the deep behind-the-scenes insights into GE tube production!
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Post by bowie on Oct 1, 2024 16:31:08 GMT -6
So, non 5 star, non Jan green, typically have the more detailed sound ? Generally speaking, I wouldn't say any of the GE versions are necessarily more detailed than the other, but it depends where the user is listening for detail. "Detail" is one of those things that seems cut and dry, but is interpreted in many ways. Though we all sort of speak the same language on the forums, when I talk to people about what they're hearing in their gear it's amazing how differently people hear things. Even guys that work in the same studio with the same gear will often have different perceptions. Many listen for detail in the highs, so they might hear the later production tubes (be they JAN, 5-Star, etc) to be more detailed. But, those who favor warmer tones will notice that the low-mids on the early production tubes are more detailed and defined than the later GEs. Generalizing anything with these is tough as there's so many variations. For instance, "JAN" was used as far back as the 1960's, and there's even white-label JAN. There's also green labeled 5-Stars.
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Post by kcatthedog on Oct 1, 2024 16:56:16 GMT -6
Gee, thx for the clarification !
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