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Post by russellcreekps on Sept 29, 2024 17:54:16 GMT -6
I have always tracked guitar separately from vocals. I have a new client who is a singer/songwriter (vocals/acoustic) and he’d like to play and sing at the same time. This will be my first crack at this (other than worktapes). He’s pitchy though, so I’m wondering about vocal tuning with bleed. i.e. Will it throw off the acoustic track? I have the mic’s setup angled with the nulls toward each other, still getting a fair amount of bleed since it’s not a huge room.
Thanks,
Russell
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 29, 2024 18:02:16 GMT -6
If you’re in Logic you could try the stem splitter to see if it will separate them.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by russellcreekps on Sept 29, 2024 18:18:39 GMT -6
Thanks Geoff, I will be recording with two mic’s. Are you saying stem splitter could remove the acoustic bleed in the vocal mic?
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 29, 2024 18:25:38 GMT -6
Thanks Geoff, I will be recording with two mic’s. Are you saying stem splitter could remove the acoustic bleed in the vocal mic? Worth a shot! Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 29, 2024 18:32:16 GMT -6
Melodyne polyphonic might be able to do it. I was able to tune a piano without ruining the live tracked vocal.
But how pitchy are we talking? If it's THAT bad then live tracking is the wrong approach wouldn't you say? Whole point of live tracking is to get a better vocal performance.
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 29, 2024 18:47:17 GMT -6
Will Rx do this? Or the thing Benny was exploring whose name escapes me?
,
Geoff
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Post by russellcreekps on Sept 29, 2024 18:52:41 GMT -6
Melodyne polyphonic might be able to do it. I was able to tune a piano without ruining the live tracked vocal. But how pitchy are we talking? If it's THAT bad then live tracking is the wrong approach wouldn't you say? Whole point of live tracking is to get a better vocal performance. Not super bad but it will need a little tuning here and there. I have RX as well, will look at that too. Thx! |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 29, 2024 18:55:38 GMT -6
This is the issue with doing it that way. Tell him he can do it that way but you can’t tune it.
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Post by wiz on Sept 29, 2024 19:01:42 GMT -6
if you use two fig 8 mics with the vocal in the null of the acoustic and vice versa... you can do this....its a little tricky
cheers
Wiz
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 29, 2024 19:32:24 GMT -6
Melodyne polyphonic might be able to do it. I was able to tune a piano without ruining the live tracked vocal. But how pitchy are we talking? If it's THAT bad then live tracking is the wrong approach wouldn't you say? Whole point of live tracking is to get a better vocal performance. Not super bad but it will need a little tuning here and there. I have RX as well, will look at that too. Thx! If it's just a bit of tuning here and there, Melodyne in polyphonic mode might be the trick. You have to have one of the more expensive versions but it comes with a full featured trial so you can always give it a shot on this project. I had a live tracked vocal that was a killer take but the piano was slightly out of tune. I had intended to retake the vocal and the piano but it just seemed a shame to lose that vocal take. The piano was barely in the vocal but the vocal was all over the piano mics (again, I intended to replace both parts). Through some wizardry I was actually able to tune some of the most wonky piano notes in the piano mics without impacting the vocal at all. So if Melodyne can do that, I'm sure it would work for your purpose. Just as long as you're not having to do severe correction, there seems to be a limit to how much you can do before it starts impacting the notes you're not intending to adjust. |
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Post by copperx on Sept 29, 2024 20:58:05 GMT -6
if you use two fig 8 mics with the vocal in the null of the acoustic and vice versa... you can do this....its a little tricky cheers Wiz This is the way. But you need the Fig 8 mics. I couldn't tell if you were already doing this from your description. If so, I apologize.
Here you can hear how much isolation you can get:
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 29, 2024 21:33:00 GMT -6
if you use two fig 8 mics with the vocal in the null of the acoustic and vice versa... you can do this....its a little tricky cheers Wiz This is the way. But you need the Fig 8 mics. I couldn't tell if you were already doing this from your description. If so, I apologize.
Here you can hear how much isolation you can get:
Maybe I'm more sensitive to tuning fluctuations than you guys are but I've tried this and it 100% did not work. Even with the guitar mostly isolated, it's not fully isolated and you can still hear the guitar detuned when you tune the vocal. On a full track it's no problem, but on a solo acoustic track no way... it will sound very weird tuning a vocal along with the guitar spill. At least I thought so. |
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Post by copperx on Sept 30, 2024 1:43:15 GMT -6
Another approach would be to record using that setup for naturalness, and then redubbing the vocal.
But if you think about it, recording something with the maximum naturalness and then going and tuning the vocal is a bit contradictory.
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Post by sean on Sept 30, 2024 5:53:02 GMT -6
I’d say 90% of the records I do the singer is playing at the same time. Sometimes you can spot tune a note here or there, but you will probably have better luck grabbing the parts that are out of tune from other takes. Or punch in on the take and if they don’t get it in the first couple tries suggest punching the guitar than the vocal in that spot.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 30, 2024 9:22:50 GMT -6
I’d say 90% of the records I do the singer is playing at the same time. Sometimes you can spot tune a note here or there, but you will probably have better luck grabbing the parts that are out of tune from other takes. Or punch in on the take and if they don’t get it in the first couple tries suggest punching the guitar than the vocal in that spot. That’s what I’m saying. Sure…you can use melodyne and use the polyphonic thingy or whatever…but it will warble. |
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Post by mcirish on Sept 30, 2024 11:46:30 GMT -6
This is the issue with doing it that way. Tell him he can do it that way but you can’t tune it. Yes, yes, yes. I've had many people that want to do it all together but neither performance is magical. Tuning is near impossible if it's recorded at the same time. What I do.... Record them as they want it to be recorded, all at once. Then ask them to humor you and just sing over the top of that. Then I do the same on guitar. I eventually get what I need. Mind tricks are sometimes needed, especially when an artist "thinks" they are much more gifted than they are |
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Post by doubledog on Sept 30, 2024 12:22:04 GMT -6
I’d say 90% of the records I do the singer is playing at the same time. Sometimes you can spot tune a note here or there, but you will probably have better luck grabbing the parts that are out of tune from other takes. Or punch in on the take and if they don’t get it in the first couple tries suggest punching the guitar than the vocal in that spot. yes! Doing multiple takes can be a lifesaver here. Start with the best overall performance and splice in any parts where either of you can't live with it (and hopefully one of the other takes has the good part). Otherwise some times you can have the client just redo that verse/chorus/whatever separately, and as long as its pretty close in tempo just fly it in there. I've done both and it usually works better than trying to tune the vocal when there is guitar bleed (it always sounds weird/bad to me). Or sometimes it's better to just live with it. Does it really need perfectly tuned vocals? If singing helps them play better (it often doesn't since they are concentrating on trying to sing and play perfectly at the same time...) ask them to concentrate on the playing and just sing very quietly (to help them stick to the arrangement since that can be the reason they want to sing) and see if that gets less bleed? Then overdub vocals. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 30, 2024 12:54:02 GMT -6
Yikes! One more big reason I'm "refining" my Basic Vocal Technique. Which is really the Italian "Leaning" the exhalation Breath pressure (most common Chest/Sternum area). NOT "Supporting it".  If any of these Singers here are open to it... Even fundamental Coaching like "Breath from the (Low-on up) Back/Sing in the front"/Minimize any Breath out... Can and probably will help. Greatly. (Letting the Belly out? Big NO NO in proper Bel Canto singing) Will Ketchup on this Thread before bed. Good Luck guys!  Chris |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 30, 2024 13:50:17 GMT -6
This is the issue with doing it that way. Tell him he can do it that way but you can’t tune it. Yes, yes, yes. I've had many people that want to do it all together but neither performance is magical. Tuning is near impossible if it's recorded at the same time. What I do.... Record them as they want it to be recorded, all at once. Then ask them to humor you and just sing over the top of that. Then I do the same on guitar. I eventually get what I need. Mind tricks are sometimes needed, especially when an artist "thinks" they are much more gifted than they are 99% of the population is not talented enough to record playing and singing at the same time. |
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Post by chessparov on Sept 30, 2024 14:32:57 GMT -6
And the other half?
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Post by russellcreekps on Sept 30, 2024 15:10:03 GMT -6
Thanks all, great info here! The reason I want to do it this way is because he plays so much more dynamic when he’s singing…i..e. There’s just so much more depth and emotion to the overall performance. I think the many takes idea will be the way to go with him.
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Post by christophert on Sept 30, 2024 15:14:10 GMT -6
With vocal tuning ruled out due to spill of any amount, the best outcome may be to do multiple takes and edit ( with a click ).
If the artist can't get that right, then another way is to perform it live, then double track the guitar, then double the vocal.
Mute the original, and now you can tune the vocal / and edit the guitar.
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Post by notneeson on Sept 30, 2024 15:44:59 GMT -6
With vocal tuning ruled out due to spill of any amount, the best outcome may be to do multiple takes and edit ( with a click ). If the artist can't get that right, then another way is to perform it live, then double track the guitar, then double the vocal. Mute the original, and now you can tune the vocal / and edit the guitar. Yeah, on a particular challenging section you may benefit from simply taking multiple passes at it and editing down after the fact, but that’s if he is accomplished enough to recognize where he’s struggling and self correct. Maybe even change a target note when he just can’t hit it. |
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