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Post by indiehouse on Aug 10, 2014 10:59:36 GMT -6
I'm always re-evaluating my workflow in an effort for continual improvement. How do you guys approach your mix (assuming no outboard was used on the way in)?
Do you set fader levels first, then make individual eq, compression, etc. adjustments with the full mix up?
Or do you mix in groups? Say get the drums sounding good, then add bass, the guitars, etc?
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 10, 2014 11:32:20 GMT -6
Set fader levels first, then make individual eq, compression, etc. adjustments with the full mix up.
Get the drums sounding good, then add bass, the guitars, etc You got it. EDIT: Actually I should add, I usually do both of these. I will push the faders up to see how the mix is going to sound, and from there you can figure out what direction to take the song, the song should tell you what to add or subtract. I would have a reference mix going too, but here's something I am starting to do to a reference mix, some people may totally disagree with this. But, if you are planning on sending this to a mastering engineer just know that the really pretty top end, and low end as well are something the mastering guys are the best at. They have the right gear and monitoring to make those really critical broadband adjustments. Every mastering engineer I've talked to always tells me to mix dark and with more lowend than less. So, I'm starting to take the reference mix and use a linear phase eq and destructively (so it's not eating processing) shelve everything above 4k down 2db, and everything below 300 up 2db. Might sound crazy, but it keeps you from screwing around with the phase by trying to get everything bright and that bottom big, this is usually where people end up making bad decisions when trying to match a commercial mix. How I figured this out on my own was I was sent a rough mix from my sisters new album where she hired a top mixing engineer. The mix was dark, really dark, and had a bunch of lowend. But, I heard the master a few days ago and wow, sounded just like the radio. So, you could try that, I know for me this is something I've only been doing for a few days, so it's not totally proven, but I'm mixing an album right now that I'm trying this on, so we'll see how it turns out, so far, it's been really good.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2014 14:32:10 GMT -6
Yep. Start with drums. I think of it as a pyramid - drums and bass on bottom, and then later up in lesser prominence.
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Post by barforama on Aug 10, 2014 15:11:25 GMT -6
I tend, from time to time, to change my workflow intentionally. Just to keep trying different approaches.
The usual is; drums, bas, guitar, keys, other stuff, vocals, backing and so forth.
1 alternative; ALL faders up - and only eq'ing when the track is in the mix. No soloing.
2 alternative; Vocals first, since it most likely is the most important track in the mix, and then add surrounding instrumentation as the mix evolves.
Sometimes when the 'standard approach' just doesn't do the trick - any of the two others gets a chance :-)
I have tried the following with good results a couple of times; Turn volume up, up, up - no compression - dip frequencies that hurts - turn up some more. It really does make a whole different mix! - fun to try, though.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2014 15:27:07 GMT -6
My first step is to select all and bring all the faders down
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Post by svart on Aug 10, 2014 17:13:33 GMT -6
I usually bring bass and drums up first and get those somewhat thumping.
I'll then bring up the secondary instruments and kinda work those into the background a bit.
Next I'll bring up the vocals.
Last I'll bring up the guitars. I know most folks do guitars before vocals, but since they tend to overlap in frequencies, I want the vocals in the mix first so I'll mold the guitars around the vocals. This is because most listeners listen to the vocals and lyrics first, so I want the vocals to be "there".
From there, I'll start doing A/Bing with a professional mix that the artist has given me as a "it should sound like this" guide.
The rest kinda rides on that. I'll cut stuff that sounds wonky, and I'll boost stuff to define an instrument's sound.
I try to get certain things sounding decent by themselves, but I've relearned to mix without soloing too much. That always ends up with a super thin mix I've found. Stuff always changes tones as you add more layers and more compression, so I save the big modifications for when I have levels more like they'll be in the final mix.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2014 2:22:52 GMT -6
I tend to start with snare, then kick, rest of drumset, bass, bass&kick, bass&drums, etc.pp. ..., vocals, vocals&guitars/keys, full mix. But this is simplified. I always have the picture of the whole mix, and what i want to achieve, in mind. Therefore, i may flip to whole mix and back in the whole process of mixing from time to time. I set all faders to the same below zero dB level from the start and have a sincere look for conventional gain staging, i.e. i use trim knobs, watch out for unwanted clipping etc. and i re-level while eq-ing. Then i use the fader levels for decisions on the sound of the whole mix, level automation etc... Well, it does not always work out like this, but i aim at doing so. This way most of the time i can *see* which choices i made for individual instruments concerning the complete mix. E.g. if i decided to turn down hi-hat or one of the guitars in the mix, it ideally reflects in the fader position. Well, if you don't use an at least *somehow* similar kind of practice, where fader position does have some kind of meaning, at all, you could happily dump all faders and use knobs instead, like on the old tube consoles... I think most of the time i just follow the best practices that i learned in the analog 80's/90's, aiming at non-clipping relatively clean results. Here in Germany most of the artists, when it came to studio or live work, asked for "clean" sound, "no effects", no "overproduction". Everybody was concerned about noise, distortion, muddy sound and digital artifacts. But i also learned, that, given that you have a good sounding console (or whatever analog type of amp stages and eq), you *can* do all kind of tricks that wouldn't work otherwise. Like driving preamps into saturation or even clipping, using eq for all kind of stuff it was not build for in the first place... Careful digital gainstaging therefore is not different to what careful analog gain staging was like. Means - it aims at avoiding saturation=coloring and distortion/clipping. Now, what made analog mixing that much fun was, that analog saturation and clipping can sound quite good and that there was gear, that you could hardly make sounding bad. So, if it clipped but sounded good, why not? Digital clipping on the other hand is quite nasty, and the problem is - if you don't give attention on proper gain staging from the beginning, you will have a hard time finding out what makes your mix sound bad. Especially if you are mixing a live event. I guess this is what gives digital FoH consoles such a bad reputation mostly... The only DAW i like for behaving like the analog consoles and therefore giving back the fun of intentionally breaking the "gain staging rules" is mixbus. It is not because of the quality of emulation, eg. Nebula could do the same. But it is that you do not have to watch out for digital clipping inside of the complete console, which is unique for a DAW.
I really learned the most i know about mixing from analog mixing under pressure (time). Which i can seriously recommend for getting a fast pace in achieving what you aim for. Ideally FoH mixing. (Making fast and fearless decisions and do the best you can because many people *will* hear the difference - immediately...)
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mhep
Full Member
Posts: 36
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Post by mhep on Aug 11, 2014 3:19:45 GMT -6
Push the faders enough to hear the song.
Take notes of things that are cool and things you think might be cool.
Find the biggest chorus section.
Pull down all faders.
Make kick and snare start working.
Bring in overheads.
Make main vocal work including reverb, etc.
Bring in bass.
Bring in room mics.
Bring in rhythm guitars.
Bring in bvox, toms, lead guitars.
Start doing tweaking.
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Post by jimwilliams on Aug 11, 2014 9:36:31 GMT -6
I approach with a ten foot pole, then attack carefully. It's all analog console and outboard, just like in 1975.
Then I let my cat walk across the console to add interesting mixing choices. It's usually good to break habits.
If I like what I hear, kitty gets a cat treat.
Someday I might let the cat do the entire mix. Couldn't be worse than some of the stuff I hear these days...
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Post by noah shain on Aug 11, 2014 11:51:41 GMT -6
I like to get bus/group compression going early. Get sections of the ensemble pumping and breathing in sympathy early on. I find if I focus too much on individual elements too early I can end up with a clinical or cold sounding mix. Sometimes things get too thin when I start carving early. I like to get stuff nice and urgent with balance and group compression (I say "group" instead of "bus" to differentiate between the 2 bus and other sub-bussing) before I carve too much. I'll get the kick and snare tweaked and balanced and then start to put the bulk of the elements in the mix and figure out how I'm gonna bus stuff for group processing and see how things fit without heavy EQ or individual instrument compression. So I guess I get a balance and then start tweaking sounds as I add FX and polish stuff. As problems arise I attack those and adjust compressors to compensate for changes in the groups. I'm a multi-buss guy so I spend a lot of time on the group bus compressors and getting them to work in concert (or some pretentious BS like that).
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Post by Ward on Aug 11, 2014 12:50:45 GMT -6
Build a mix like you built the recording:
Guide vocal and guide instruments in for the start, then you recorded the rhythm section so you bring that in... then the guitars, then keys, then acoustic overdubs, then leads, then the lead vocal and finally the bvox. Then start bringing down the loudest thing in the mix over and over again until you hear everything clearly. then start other treatments. Groups? Drums, backing vocals, maybe rhythm and acoustic guitars. that's it.
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Post by Ward on Aug 11, 2014 12:51:10 GMT -6
And you drop the guides once the foundation is built!
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mhep
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Post by mhep on Aug 11, 2014 19:15:09 GMT -6
Build a mix... then start bringing down the loudest thing in the mix over and over again until you hear everything clearly. Brilliantly stated.
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Post by Ward on Aug 13, 2014 7:37:50 GMT -6
Build a mix... then start bringing down the loudest thing in the mix over and over again until you hear everything clearly. Brilliantly stated. Gratitude.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Aug 13, 2014 8:07:39 GMT -6
For me it starts with getting to know the song, if I can I will start hearing a client live, if not I try to listen to all the tracks, find what's there, often there is something that will just make a track hidden. So much of my mix comes in on tracks where I didn't do any tracking, and is referred because somebody just got in over there head.
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Post by wreck on Aug 13, 2014 8:26:24 GMT -6
I like to get bus/group compression going early. Get sections of the ensemble pumping and breathing in sympathy early on. I find if I focus too much on individual elements too early I can end up with a clinical or cold sounding mix. Sometimes things get too thin when I start carving early. I like to get stuff nice and urgent with balance and group compression (I say "group" instead of "bus" to differentiate between the 2 bus and other sub-bussing) before I carve too much. I'll get the kick and snare tweaked and balanced and then start to put the bulk of the elements in the mix and figure out how I'm gonna bus stuff for group processing and see how things fit without heavy EQ or individual instrument compression. So I guess I get a balance and then start tweaking sounds as I add FX and polish stuff. As problems arise I attack those and adjust compressors to compensate for changes in the groups. I'm a multi-buss guy so I spend a lot of time on the group bus compressors and getting them to work in concert (or some pretentious BS like that). This is something I discovered over time to work for me as well. I mostly only mix my own stuff. When I started out I tweaked each drum first, totally lost perspective by the time everything was in and mixes took forever. Now throw a bus on every section, balance levels, roll off guitars and vocals, throw some comps on each bus to get some control, find the right verbs and route to them, depending on how bad something needs eq it will get thrown on the bus at some point - earlier if it needs it really bad, later if it fits in well. I still only rough mix my stuff and send it out for someone else because I just tend to like it better when someone else does it. I think that has more to do with being removed, having fresh ears and being able to send comments on the mix if something jumps out at me. But using a bus on groups does something. It's almost like attacking each track just chokes the life out of it - but I'm ITB and that could have something to do with it - maybe not.
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Post by lpedrum on Aug 13, 2014 8:37:01 GMT -6
More often than not drums create the space in which a track lives. It's the way a room (or a faux room) reacts to the percussiveness that tells the listener where we are. So after getting some basic levels and panning on everything I dig deep into the drums and then build things around that and try to be open to change as I go. Everything is important, but it helps me to understand that drums provide the setting and vocals provide the conversation--in a way everything else revolves around those two elements. Honestly I wouldn't want to get too locked into a specific mix order such as bass or guitars first -- to me that would limit creativity.
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Post by Guitar on Aug 13, 2014 22:28:54 GMT -6
I have a hard time with quick effective soloing and muting with a DAW mouse mix. I'm using a Mackie 1604 VLZ4 now and I finally understand what everyone is talking about with bring in this, bring in that. honestly that's not really possible in a DAW, unless maybe you have a nice control surface, which I've never tried.
I tend to find myself pushing things up rather than down. This gets loud and tweaked, then that, then I have to bring up this or that because it's too quiet to compete, or maybe bring something down that's way too loud, or bring down the thing I just tweaked. And in the final stages, automation is almost always required to get the best focus and balance of parts, section by section.
I think in the box mixing is perfect for production, when you need to take long breaks and make changes later with fresh ears and mind. But analog mixing is greatly superior in terms of quickness and to a lesser extent, sound quality, when you are attempting a final solution. There is a reason they are called "mixers" and no, not the pie filling machine in your mother's kitchen.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 22:42:09 GMT -6
Well, Guitar, i just integrated my old US-2400 into our setup again and wondered, how i could work without it (it is basically a usb class compliant Mackie Control emulation with 24 flying faders + master fader, jog shuttle wheel, transport section like on the old tape machines, lots of keys and a joystick etc.pp.....and very silent on the faders.) Try to lend an MCU and see, if you can work faster with a control surface. For me it makes a huge difference, because i come from the analog mixer originally. Many younger guys don't get the point of control surfaces because the are used to use mouse control in the first place... But if you come from analog - control surfaces are simply great. BR, Martin
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Post by unit7 on Aug 14, 2014 4:11:22 GMT -6
For me it starts with getting to know the song Besides that I, as many others here, usually start with the foundation, this is my approach too. 9/10 projects I get here are already in some kind of rough mix state, so I listen to that to connect to the music while doing other small stuff. If I come to think of a song that I could use as reference for the mix I check it out on iTunes. Things like that to get the big picture, choose direction, before getting lost in all the little details..
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Post by Ward on Aug 14, 2014 8:22:40 GMT -6
Then there's the Hugh Padgham approach of putting up the vocal first and building everything else around it...
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Post by Martin John Butler on Aug 14, 2014 11:43:55 GMT -6
That's really interesting ward. I have two mixes of a track done by the Psychedelic Furs, "Until She Comes" , one has a Steven Street mix and one with a Hugh Padgham mix of the same song. It was a revelation to hear. The Street mix was OK, but I felt the the drums were too forward, and it sounded demo-ish to me. The Padgham mix was magical, you could just feel the vibe of the band and get deeply into it. There was a little bagpipe sound that was a recurring theme, Padgham placed it so well it stuck in you're head like glue. It was a tutorial in sensitive musical greatness versus being adequate.
Now that you've mentioned he builds a mix around the vocal, I'll have to try that. Maybe I'll see if I can find some info online about his techniques.
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