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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2024 8:39:12 GMT -6
Was just patting myself on the back (in my mind) for my newest (ok, I’ve had most of it before  ) vocal chain. It’s the best sounding chain I’ve hit on and there’s no reason - other than just wanting different - to screw with it. But I started thinking how much money it took to get there. These are new prices, and I didn’t pay new…but the point stands. (I probably paid half and that’s still INSANE.) Soyuz 017 - $4600 Helios 0011 with rack - $6000 Retro Sta-level - $3000 Lynx Hilo 1 - $1800 That’s $15,400 new. I got great deals on everything, but I still paid a shit ton of money. I’ve spent all these years spending good money after bad - and most of the reason for buying and selling is how much fun the chase is…but if you want no-nonsense, works like it should, no Chinese zing, no other-bad-examples-I-can’t-currently-think-of… Great gear is the gear that just works. You don’t have to screw with it. You get to the place you’re wanting to get to faster. Can you get there other ways? Yes, I have for a long time…is it more work? Yeah. And I’m not talking these particular brands, per se - just quality pieces that are tried and true. I think the main point is that it’s not just about one good piece here and there…it’s the sum of all the parts. A sta-level into a $500 interface is going to be bottlenecked. A Rode NT1 into a Lynx Aurora (n) is still going to have issues. My guess is that a Neumann U67 into a Neve 1073 into a Kenetek LA2A is going to suffer sonic degradation. Unfortunately, it’s the sum of all parts. So - at least for the time being, I’m finding that choosing Sonic Nirvana is trumping Economic common sense lol. I’m looking at it like a capital improvement. It might take me a couple of years to completely pay off…but I’m finding for my own mental health (just kinda joking…maybe), having these tools make me work faster and happier with the results…and better results. Why would you not invest in that? I’ve certainly not really had that opinion in the past. Anyone have differing thoughts? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2024 8:42:58 GMT -6
That number is ridiculous. Just insane. But I’ve probably spent many multiples of that over the years chasing shit. It’s all a learning experience. I didn’t have the experience and knowledge I have now - so I couldn’t have…but man, I wish I had bitten the bullet and bought a couple things 20 years ago…They were priced crazy then, but not NEARLY as crazy as now. Would’ve been a great investment.
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Post by doubledog on Sept 21, 2024 9:34:27 GMT -6
there will always be something new and cool, or promising to be better... a lot of it is out of my (self-imposed) budget, but smoke em if you got em!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2024 9:43:41 GMT -6
there will always be something new and cool, or promising to be better... a lot of it is out of my (self-imposed) budget, but smoke em if you got em! Yeah most of that stuff has been bought over years. |
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Post by smashlord on Sept 21, 2024 9:44:13 GMT -6
Yep. My vocal chain is sitting at about $24K (about $27K if you count the computer and software) and I had a client the other week say "we should grab lunch and record a LV real quick!" with a smile on his face, as if an $18 lunch is appropriate compensation for a couple of hours of vocal recording......
ROI? God help us all.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,940 
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Post by ericn on Sept 21, 2024 9:47:30 GMT -6
That number is ridiculous. Just insane. But I’ve probably spent many multiples of that over the years chasing shit. It’s all a learning experience. I didn’t have the experience and knowledge I have now - so I couldn’t have…but man, I wish I had bitten the bullet and bought a couple things 20 years ago…They were priced crazy then, but not NEARLY as crazy as now. Would’ve been a great investment. And I was just thinking “ yeah and he will spend another $10K in the next 2 years trying to make it even better @😁 Realistically find me a cheaper vocation or hobby where one finds quality hand built gear? Or even just quality semi mass produced equipment? Golf ? Have you priced hand made clubs? Cycling? A New Colnago built up will cost almost what I paid for the Tesla! Sailing , a slip in KS yes KS will cost $3K a year just for a place to keep the boat! Woodworking? Price a nice Laguna bandsaw saw and some Festool drills, saws etc. I think we still drink because we can easily forget what it costs! |
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Post by drbill on Sept 21, 2024 10:04:26 GMT -6
Almost every niche sport / hobby is excruciatingly expensive these days. Doesn't matter what it is. Actually, $15k for a custom fitted, world class vocal setup doesn't seem that bad to me. One could easily quadruple that with vintage gear. Glad you found what's "right".
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 21, 2024 10:31:12 GMT -6
Perspective. A week away with the wife and kids in the sun in a decent hotel, plus spending money = $8000 So I think studio gear is actually great value for money - my gear wasn't cheap either but spread out over the decades it's fantastic value for money. Fortunately for me, my wife agrees |
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Post by ironinthepath on Sept 21, 2024 11:19:39 GMT -6
Tools of the trade! Totally worth it :-)
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Post by andersmv on Sept 21, 2024 11:20:21 GMT -6
It’s all about perspective and at the end of the day, what makes you happy and feel like you have what you need to do a good job. I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago (who is not an engineer or anything) about how I was about to spend way too much money on speaker upgrades. He kind of pushed me on how much I was spending because he was curious, his response kind of surprised me. “That’s almost as much as a really cheap new car. Don’t you need speakers to do your job well?”.
I was embarrassed to tell him how much it was going to cost, he wasn’t surprised or phased by it because it’s my job. How much does a construction worker or plumber/electrician spend on their tools and a truck? I’m in rural Arkansas, I see blue collar guys making WAY under $50k/year dump close to $100k on massive trucks that they “need” to do their job.
We’re not that bad people. If anything, we should all be stepping up and spending more than we are. Us audio engineers are quite frivolous by comparison… 😂
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 21, 2024 11:34:13 GMT -6
It’s all about perspective and at the end of the day, what makes you happy and feel like you have what you need to do a good job. I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago (who is not an engineer or anything) about how I was about to spend way too much money on speaker upgrades. He kind of pushed me on how much I was spending because he was curious, his response kind of surprised me. “That’s almost as much as a really cheap new car. Don’t you need speakers to do your job well?”. I was embarrassed to tell him how much it was going to cost, he wasn’t surprised or phased by it because it’s my job. How much does a construction worker or plumber/electrician spend on their tools and a truck? I’m in rural Arkansas, I see blue collar guys making WAY under $50k/year dump close to $100k on massive trucks that they “need” to do their job. We’re not that bad people. If anything, we should all be stepping up and spending more than we are. Us audio engineers are quite frivolous by comparison… 😂 If someone does this for a living then you have to have decent accountant and a decent account should drill you on the importance of ROI. If it's a hobby, then people spend away (up to their budget) and some people have very big personal budgets. I've been a professional in music for 43 years and in that time I've spent 50% of my budget on the gear I need (and my account has been able to justify) and 50% on stuff that has been a complete and glorious indulgence It's about balance. |
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 21, 2024 11:41:38 GMT -6
That number is ridiculous. Just insane. But I’ve probably spent many multiples of that over the years chasing shit. It’s all a learning experience. I didn’t have the experience and knowledge I have now - so I couldn’t have…but man, I wish I had bitten the bullet and bought a couple things 20 years ago…They were priced crazy then, but not NEARLY as crazy as now. Would’ve been a great investment. Probably be more accurate to calculate the sum of the chase, money lost on buying and selling gear, as well as time cost. That’s kinda where I’m at with gear now. I’ve got real nice stuff. Where does the gear flipping end? Sounds like you’re locked in and happy. BTW, I’ve been considering another Soyuz. I had the 17 v1 years ago but sold it. But I’ve already got nice mics. Ugh. Doesn’t seem to ever end… |
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Post by crillemannen on Sept 21, 2024 12:08:49 GMT -6
Well I have allot of money tied up into gear. I do believe I have the very best from preamps, microphones to instruments. What I try to do is either buy used or vintage so in worst case scenario I'll break even but in pretty much all cases so far I've made money on the gear I've sold.
Buy quality, known brands and it's a solid investment and.. you'll have fun while owning them!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2024 13:19:22 GMT -6
It’s all about perspective and at the end of the day, what makes you happy and feel like you have what you need to do a good job. I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago (who is not an engineer or anything) about how I was about to spend way too much money on speaker upgrades. He kind of pushed me on how much I was spending because he was curious, his response kind of surprised me. “That’s almost as much as a really cheap new car. Don’t you need speakers to do your job well?”. I was embarrassed to tell him how much it was going to cost, he wasn’t surprised or phased by it because it’s my job. How much does a construction worker or plumber/electrician spend on their tools and a truck? I’m in rural Arkansas, I see blue collar guys making WAY under $50k/year dump close to $100k on massive trucks that they “need” to do their job. We’re not that bad people. If anything, we should all be stepping up and spending more than we are. Us audio engineers are quite frivolous by comparison… 😂 If someone is making $50k and buying an $80-100k truck then they’re a dumbass. At least they can budget because they have a steady income. Luckily my wife has a good job…but I can’t imagine doing this by myself with no sure thing income coming in. I guess as an engineer/mixer/producer, you do know that stuff is coming in, it’s just the timing that’s an issue sometimes. As a songwriter - there’s absolutely no way to justify buying the gear hoping for an ROI. I mean - ya can - but will you be one of the lucky 36 songwriters in the world to get cuts on e.g. country radio? I’ve finally just let that go because the odds are stacked sooo against songwriters these days. Maybe if I were younger, but I just don’t have the cut-throats, smother babies attitude you need to be successful. I honestly find production a lot more fun…I get to go in the studio all the time - produce mix and master…and not really have to worry about what happens after. That’s so incredibly freeing. Btw - wonder what the monthly note on a $100k car is? $900? $1000? And if you really had enough dough - wouldn’t you just buy it straight up? |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2024 13:23:12 GMT -6
That number is ridiculous. Just insane. But I’ve probably spent many multiples of that over the years chasing shit. It’s all a learning experience. I didn’t have the experience and knowledge I have now - so I couldn’t have…but man, I wish I had bitten the bullet and bought a couple things 20 years ago…They were priced crazy then, but not NEARLY as crazy as now. Would’ve been a great investment. Probably be more accurate to calculate the sum of the chase, money lost on buying and selling gear, as well as time cost. That’s kinda where I’m at with gear now. I’ve got real nice stuff. Where does the gear flipping end? Sounds like you’re locked in and happy. BTW, I’ve been considering another Soyuz. I had the 17 v1 years ago but sold it. But I’ve already got nice mics. Ugh. Doesn’t seem to ever end… Yeah. That’s the problem. The one guy buys one truck. I buy 10 of them lol. I know i know. Bad analogy. I would love to have a Heiserman 251 and Neumann U67 to compare to the Soyuz, but do I really need to know if they’re better? Lol The fact that I’ve had this Soyuz for like 4-5 years tells you how good it is. If Cap’n Flippy can’t bring himself to part with it…then that says something. |
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Post by tonycamphd on Sept 21, 2024 13:26:52 GMT -6
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 21, 2024 13:28:21 GMT -6
My vocal chain is about as cheap as you can get. SM7 into a cloudlifter type thing into a Daking pre. That’s a grand Canuck. Add the Daking comp and we double that again and then the interface and we double that again.
I have never owned a big time « vocal » mic. The R84 is probably as close as I will get. And this is 40 years of gear acquisition. But my voice is craptacular, so I think a really good LDC would probably be a waste. Doesn’t mean I don’t want an M49.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 21, 2024 13:56:54 GMT -6
It’s the 80/20 rule, getting that final 20% is really going to cost you: is it worth it ?
Each of us needs to decide.
For me, currently , I feel like I’d have to spend a large sum for any significant sonic improvement, don’t have the dough, so that makes my decision.
I do like the idea of daking comp and after using my buddy’s Stam 800c mike , one of those: neither a major expense.
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Post by ab101 on Sept 21, 2024 13:58:00 GMT -6
If your main interest was sailboating, the financial impact would be greater.
Is this really a large amount of money for something that is not only business related but also a major part of one's being? I do not think so.
And I do not like to lock people into a never changing propositions. I believe that people can be gear chasers for years and then come to a point where they are happy with what they have. And the more this is believed, the greater impact on making it so. I have been working on this myself, realizing that I have all the tools I need, I just need to improve my own skills and the "use" of those tools. It has been a hard adjustment missing all the chasing of gear, buy and sell, etc., but it is also nice to enter into a new stage of being.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 21, 2024 13:58:29 GMT -6
My vocal chain is about as cheap as you can get. SM7 into a cloudlifter type thing into a Daking pre. That’s a grand Canuck. Add the Daking comp and we double that again and then the interface and we double that again. I have never owned a big time « vocal » mic. The R84 is probably as close as I will get. And this is 40 years of gear acquisition. But my voice is craptacular, so I think a really good LDC would probably be a waste. Doesn’t mean I don’t want an M49. Cheers, Geoff Phil Collins recorded albums that sold millions and millions of copies .... With a Beyer M88 plugin into a crappy old Alan and Heath Limiter (a truly brutal device) Probably an £800 vocal chain. Apparently not an issue when you have a unique world class voice |
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Post by geoff738 on Sept 21, 2024 14:11:56 GMT -6
JK, what was your vocal mic before the Soyuz? Was it the Upton or was there something in between.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by drbill on Sept 21, 2024 15:39:53 GMT -6
It’s all about perspective and at the end of the day, what makes you happy and feel like you have what you need to do a good job. I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago (who is not an engineer or anything) about how I was about to spend way too much money on speaker upgrades. He kind of pushed me on how much I was spending because he was curious, his response kind of surprised me. “That’s almost as much as a really cheap new car. Don’t you need speakers to do your job well?”. I was embarrassed to tell him how much it was going to cost, he wasn’t surprised or phased by it because it’s my job. How much does a construction worker or plumber/electrician spend on their tools and a truck? I’m in rural Arkansas, I see blue collar guys making WAY under $50k/year dump close to $100k on massive trucks that they “need” to do their job. We’re not that bad people. If anything, we should all be stepping up and spending more than we are. Us audio engineers are quite frivolous by comparison… 😂 The difference is that those other professions actually make real money. $50-200 per hour. Anyone making less than $50k a year on a $100k truck is going to have it repo'd in less than 6 months. The music "biz" is essentially dead. At least from a standard investment business perspective, and from the perspective of 20 years ago - which even then was low return on investment. At this point in time, it's an "avocation" more than a profession. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 21, 2024 15:44:51 GMT -6
I would love to have a Heiserman 251 and Neumann U67 to compare to the Soyuz, but do I really need to know if they’re better? Lol I think we both know the answer to that question.  |
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Post by Dan on Sept 21, 2024 16:10:31 GMT -6
it's still thousands for a good clean condenser mic, pre, and converter. not even chasing the past stuff. the room is way more expensive too.
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Post by andersmv on Sept 21, 2024 16:12:03 GMT -6
It’s all about perspective and at the end of the day, what makes you happy and feel like you have what you need to do a good job. I was talking to a friend of mine a few days ago (who is not an engineer or anything) about how I was about to spend way too much money on speaker upgrades. He kind of pushed me on how much I was spending because he was curious, his response kind of surprised me. “That’s almost as much as a really cheap new car. Don’t you need speakers to do your job well?”. I was embarrassed to tell him how much it was going to cost, he wasn’t surprised or phased by it because it’s my job. How much does a construction worker or plumber/electrician spend on their tools and a truck? I’m in rural Arkansas, I see blue collar guys making WAY under $50k/year dump close to $100k on massive trucks that they “need” to do their job. We’re not that bad people. If anything, we should all be stepping up and spending more than we are. Us audio engineers are quite frivolous by comparison… 😂 The difference is that those other professions actually make real money. $50-200 per hour. Anyone making less than $50k a year on a $100k truck is going to have it repo'd in less than 6 months. The music "biz" is essentially dead. At least from a standard investment business perspective, and from the perspective of 20 years ago - which even then was low return on investment. At this point in time, it's an "avocation" more than a profession. I'm not trying to make an argument that any of us are smart  . I don't go on vacations and I don't buy cars, but I do buy studio crap constantly. It's easier to justify when you enjoy it too, I guess that's what I was getting at. |
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) vocal chain. It’s the best sounding chain I’ve hit on and there’s no reason - other than just wanting different - to screw with it. But I started thinking how much money it took to get there. 
. I don't go on vacations and I don't buy cars, but I do buy studio crap constantly. It's easier to justify when you enjoy it too, I guess that's what I was getting at.