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Post by basspro on Sept 7, 2024 16:55:19 GMT -6
I bought a retro sta level last winter and have noticed that it gets pretty hairy on bass if it’s in double or triple mode.
I can absolutely pummel it on single mode with 20dB+ of reduction and it stays clean. Is this normal behavior? It’s fine on double or triple if I’m more conservative with the amount of gain reduction I’m using. I can also slam a vocal on any setting and it’s never breaking up, so it seems like it just freaks out if you feed it too much low end with the input set higher. I have an Acme Opticom 500 that responds in a very similar way
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 7, 2024 19:04:09 GMT -6
Yeah…mine always have. Single only.
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Post by Tbone81 on Sept 7, 2024 19:56:29 GMT -6
I had the same reaction when I got my V Comp. I was blasting a vocal through it, Triple Mode, Fastest release and it got really hairy lol.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 7, 2024 20:04:53 GMT -6
the better the matching and balance adjust in the gain reduction tube, the less freak with low end.
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Post by copperx on Sept 7, 2024 22:33:28 GMT -6
I'm finally understanding what hairy means. So it's not just distorted, but slightly out of control like a tube varimu compressor can get?
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Post by poppaflavor on Sept 8, 2024 7:30:54 GMT -6
I had the same reaction when I got my V Comp. I was blasting a vocal through it, Triple Mode, Fastest release and it got really hairy lol. Yeah, same here with the VComp on a percussive aggressive vocal. It's kind of cool in parallel as an effect. Smoother vocals are flattered by the double & triple modes depending on the performance. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 8, 2024 7:38:33 GMT -6
Helpful hint:
If the needle is moving, you may already be using too much ‘goo’ with your Retroscape Stave comp
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 8, 2024 8:48:40 GMT -6
Wait, what? I see the needle moving to about -15 to -20 sometimes…
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Post by EmRR on Sept 8, 2024 9:57:20 GMT -6
15-20 is extreme. Really meant for slow moving dynamics of an overall mix as an AGC, not designed for single inconsistent sources, especially with bass content. It’s a special effect more than a compressor in that range.
When tube balance is imperfect (fact of life) you see it in bass content waveforms, goes asymmetric on the attack and swings back to symmetry. You can adjust the GR balance (if your model has that) for least asymmetry and if that doesn’t do it you need a better tube(s). You want to make that adjustment while the comp is running at your typical reduction rate. If you do it at 3db, it might not be balanced at 10db. If you run at lots of different amounts normally, you want to check it at multiple levels and find a best average.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 8, 2024 10:10:52 GMT -6
15-20 is extreme. Really meant for slow moving dynamics of an overall mix as an AGC, not designed for single inconsistent sources, especially with bass content. It’s a special effect more than a compressor in that range. When tube balance is imperfect (fact of life) you see it in bass content waveforms, goes asymmetric on the attack and swings back to symmetry. You can adjust the GR balance (if your model has that) for least asymmetry and if that doesn’t do it you need a better tube(s). You want to make that adjustment while the comp is running at your typical reduction rate. If you do it at 3db, it might not be balanced at 10db. If you run at lots of different amounts normally, you want to check it at multiple levels and find a best average. I will hit -15 on transients pretty easily. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 8, 2024 13:12:41 GMT -6
With a VU meter that’s way more than 15, easily 30.
The RS124 was run hot like that at EMI. The time constants and the balancing circuit have a lot to do with it’s success. If you hit something with slower attack that hard the transients all get by the compression without being much affected and run smack into the headroom ceiling of the amp, so….transient distortion. Which ripples through the whole circuit if it’s constant/big enough to start asking for additional power supply current. Like when you completely overdrive something and start getting that muting sound.
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Post by trakworxmastering on Sept 9, 2024 9:53:11 GMT -6
I once did some testing that showed the GR meter on my STA greatly overstates the amount of actual GR.
When my STA's meter shows 20dB of GR it's actually only 14dB of GR.
It's a use-your-ears kind of box.
Distortion with faster settings is normal in my experience as well. The OG units didn't even have fast settings, probably for a reason.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 9, 2024 10:07:54 GMT -6
I once did some testing that showed the GR meter on my STA greatly overstates the amount of actual GR. When my STA's meter shows 20dB of GR it's actually only 14dB of GR. It's a use-your-ears kind of box. Distortion with faster settings is normal in my experience as well. The OG units didn't even have fast settings, probably for a reason. Yeah I noticed it was hitting like -20 ish on a vocal transient. No way it’s actually taking away -20 db. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 9, 2024 10:29:29 GMT -6
I stand by the statement that it’s far more compression than shown on longer TRANSIENT events (exceeding the attack time length). It’s not a peak meter, it's a display of current through the tube, which indicates compression (bias change) is occurring.
The manual says it can compress 40dB. They're thinking program material with gradual changes, which hides a lot of 'hair' you get with single sources in tracking.
An original is meter calibrated for the stock ratio of 3.3:1 and an expected output level of +10 - +12. When you stray radically from that the meter becomes more inaccurate. The compression curve has a bit of an 'S' shape to it too, which will tell the meter different things.
Single position stock attack time is 75mS. An RS124 is 15mS. A LOT gets by a Sta in single position before it ever does anything. Single is recommended for classical music and other sources requiring the most dynamic range. Also has the slowest release.
Double is meant for speech and 'popular music'. 25mS attack, with a self adjusting dual release time. Less pumping, with two different faster releases.
I don't know what any of the cloners are doing about the input and output pads, changing any of that rearranges the operating range.
The better the balance of the GR tube, the more you can abuse it.
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Post by basspro on Sept 9, 2024 13:30:14 GMT -6
I stand by the statement that it’s far more compression than shown on longer TRANSIENT events (exceeding the attack time length). It’s not a peak meter, it's a display of current through the tube, which indicates compression (bias change) is occurring. The manual says it can compress 40dB. They're thinking program material with gradual changes, which hides a lot of 'hair' you get with single sources in tracking. An original is meter calibrated for the stock ratio of 3.3:1 and an expected output level of +10 - +12. When you stray radically from that the meter becomes more inaccurate. The compression curve has a bit of an 'S' shape to it too, which will tell the meter different things. Single position stock attack time is 75mS. An RS124 is 15mS. A LOT gets by a Sta in single position before it ever does anything. Single is recommended for classical music and other sources requiring the most dynamic range. Also has the slowest release. Double is meant for speech and 'popular music'. 25mS attack, with a self adjusting dual release time. Less pumping, with two different faster releases. I don't know what any of the cloners are doing about the input and output pads, changing any of that rearranges the operating range. The better the balance of the GR tube, the more you can abuse it. Ok, so it seems like using it conservatively in Double mode is the way to go for bass then. Or I guess a tube swap/calibration could also be an option? It certainly sounds good in Double mode with around 5dB of reduction, I was just surprised by the distortion when hitting it hard because I have a Doublewide that I can totally slam and it stays clean. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 9, 2024 13:38:05 GMT -6
Always thought it sounded better in single? But mostly because it didn’t fart. 95% of the stuff I do, the bass is already pretty heavily compressed (and done well.) I think it’s usually going through a session guy’s rig and then into RND Shelford and I think a Brute. So I usually just pop a 2254/LA2/MagicDE/U2A on it and move on.
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