lyons
Full Member
Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Sept 5, 2024 13:14:54 GMT -6
Hi all,
I notice that music from 30 years ago or so has vocals much further back than modern day music. Even when listening to huge records from the 80s and 90s, the vocals generally are almost baked into the music to the extent that it is at times difficult to work out the lyrics. Contrast that with modern day material where at least on some records, the vocals are really sitting on top and separate from the music.
When did this really start to happen and what is the reason? Also as a side point (but related somewhat) what is the reason for the arguably excessive brightness of vocals in modern music? Is it for intelligibility purposes or is it just something that someone did and everyone just followed suit.
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Post by thehightenor on Sept 5, 2024 13:35:12 GMT -6
Well here's a thought ....
You make the vocals louder when you don't want the focus to be on the music.
When your band mates are Jimmy Page, John Bonham, John Paul Jones (for example) .... you might want to share the limelight with them!
90% of the music I hear on the radio now is solo artists singing over the same 4 boring chords and hack beats .... ad nauseum.
Sign of the times I guess.
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Post by bossanova on Sept 5, 2024 13:51:18 GMT -6
Hi all, I notice that music from 30 years ago or so has vocals much further back than modern day music. Even when listening to huge records from the 80s and 90s, the vocals generally are almost baked into the music to the extent that it is at times difficult to work out the lyrics. Contrast that with modern day material where at least on some records, the vocals are really sitting on top and separate from the music. When did this really start to happen and what is the reason? Also as a side point (but related somewhat) what is the reason for the arguably excessive brightness of vocals in modern music? Is it for intelligibility purposes or is it just something that someone did and everyone just followed suit. The sound today relative to the volume of vocals is a neo-60s sound as much as anything. Back then the vocals on pop records were up front and *big*, because the vocal was the star of the show and had to be intelligible on any playback system in mono. That’s the case even more so as you go back in time to lower fidelity recordings, all the way back to the singer standing closest to the mic/horn on the early sound recordings. I think stereo and increased fidelity led to vocals moving backwards in the 70s-80s (especially the 80s) because engineers wanted to blend them into the wider, deeper stereo mixes that were now possible while keeping them mono compatible for PA and club systems and mono TV broadcasts. If anything, vocals started moving up again in the mid 90s because that’s when digital limiting starts reducing the average dynamic range with each subsequent year, and when you hit a certain level of compression depth is one of the first things to go. If you get a chance, listen to the original mastering of “Thriller” vs a later compressed version and you can hear how things that were originally quieter background elements are much closer to the front of the mix now.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 5, 2024 15:01:49 GMT -6
I just think it was probably used to cover up out of tune and sub par vocals…there was no other way to fix them.
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Post by Dan on Sept 5, 2024 15:45:19 GMT -6
Now it’s used because of the loudness wars, the music is barely original and sucks, the recording quality sucks, the mixers and producers suck. They hit the limiter so hard that the reverb send pumps louder than the vocal. Or it’s an insert. Level and brightness? It’s uneven, has tuning artifacts and is too loud! Sit it in space? Who cares! As long as it’s audible at that point.
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Post by Dan on Sept 5, 2024 15:49:26 GMT -6
Hi all, I notice that music from 30 years ago or so has vocals much further back than modern day music. Even when listening to huge records from the 80s and 90s, the vocals generally are almost baked into the music to the extent that it is at times difficult to work out the lyrics. Contrast that with modern day material where at least on some records, the vocals are really sitting on top and separate from the music. When did this really start to happen and what is the reason? Also as a side point (but related somewhat) what is the reason for the arguably excessive brightness of vocals in modern music? Is it for intelligibility purposes or is it just something that someone did and everyone just followed suit. The sound today relative to the volume of vocals is a neo-60s sound as much as anything. Back then the vocals on pop records were up front and *big*, because the vocal was the star of the show and had to be intelligible on any playback system in mono. That’s the case even more so as you go back in time to lower fidelity recordings, all the way back to the singer standing closest to the mic/horn on the early sound recordings. I think stereo and increased fidelity led to vocals moving backwards in the 70s-80s (especially the 80s) because engineers wanted to blend them into the wider, deeper stereo mixes that were now possible while keeping them mono compatible for PA and club systems and mono TV broadcasts. If anything, vocals started moving up again in the mid 90s because that’s when digital limiting starts reducing the average dynamic range with each subsequent year, and when you hit a certain level of compression depth is one of the first things to go. If you get a chance, listen to the original mastering of “Thriller” vs a later compressed version and you can hear how things that were originally quieter background elements are much closer to the front of the mix now. In Soundgarden, bad motor finger, the og cd, not the remaster from an Adat tape, Chris Cornell is saturated to death from an over 1176ed u67 to sit behind the lead guitars! Chris Cornell, one of the best ever. The limiters destroy the mix. Especially the multiband ones. The remasters of so many classic records don’t just make them sound bad, they destroy the fader balance and rides. Also after the 60s, they’re not dubbing annd redubbingn everything to 4 track to make room for the vocal on the tape, making everything else smaller and darker and less present. See Fresh Cream which still sounds great in Mono but you can hear it.
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Post by Dan on Sept 5, 2024 15:58:39 GMT -6
And even if nothing sucks, if everything is fake but the god damn vocals, I want to shelve everything else to hide that’s it’s fake!
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Post by jeremygillespie on Sept 6, 2024 7:39:30 GMT -6
Now it’s used because of the loudness wars, the music is barely original and sucks, the recording quality sucks, the mixers and producers suck. They hit the limiter so hard that the reverb send pumps louder than the vocal. Or it’s an insert. Level and brightness? It’s uneven, has tuning artifacts and is too loud! Sit it in space? Who cares! As long as it’s audible at that point. Can you hit me with like 5 records that you think sound great?
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Post by doubledog on Sept 6, 2024 8:33:35 GMT -6
Also as a side point (but related somewhat) what is the reason for the arguably excessive brightness of vocals in modern music? Is it for intelligibility purposes or is it just something that someone did and everyone just followed suit. I always wondered if this may also be somewhat a side-effect of some bright mics that were meant to help overcome the loss of high-frequencies when recording to tape. Those same mics got used on digital recordings, resulting in some really bright vocals, then that became a thing and everyone else wanted that sound (or maybe they were just using the same mics too)?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Sept 6, 2024 8:51:57 GMT -6
Whatever the reason for the trend, I welcome it. I like hot vocals and I used to have to fight for it 20 years ago. Now it's a much easier argument. (And my genre is Americana / indie folk / indie)
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Post by chessparov on Sept 6, 2024 9:12:21 GMT -6
Now it’s used because of the loudness wars, the music is barely original and sucks, the recording quality sucks, the mixers and producers suck. They hit the limiter so hard that the reverb send pumps louder than the vocal. Or it’s an insert. Level and brightness? It’s uneven, has tuning artifacts and is too loud! Sit it in space? Who cares! As long as it’s audible at that point. Fortunately I'm Limited to begin with.
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Post by bossanova on Sept 6, 2024 9:13:31 GMT -6
Also as a side point (but related somewhat) what is the reason for the arguably excessive brightness of vocals in modern music? Is it for intelligibility purposes or is it just something that someone did and everyone just followed suit. I always wondered if this may also be somewhat a side-effect of some bright mics that were meant to help overcome the loss of high-frequencies when recording to tape. Those same mics got used on digital recordings, resulting in some really bright vocals, then that became a thing and everyone else wanted that sound (or maybe they were just using the same mics too)? I’m guessing the influence of someone like CLA who still was using the “boost the snot out of the vocal with the SSL high shelf” well after the 80s had an effect as well. If his vocals sound like that, do you want yours sounding darker? (I would say yes, but that’s me.) Also, “Torn” by Natalie Imbruglia.
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Post by Dan on Sept 6, 2024 9:53:05 GMT -6
Now it’s used because of the loudness wars, the music is barely original and sucks, the recording quality sucks, the mixers and producers suck. They hit the limiter so hard that the reverb send pumps louder than the vocal. Or it’s an insert. Level and brightness? It’s uneven, has tuning artifacts and is too loud! Sit it in space? Who cares! As long as it’s audible at that point. Can you hit me with like 5 records that you think sound great? heavily limited modern records that sound great? That’s very tough since the limiters have a ton of artifacts and most of them eventually become pcm sample clippers and dug in, they all mess everything up by pumping it around, distorting it, and clipping it. Just on my phone right now that sounds great: Ahmad Jamal’s Crystals and Digital Works, Captain Beyond’s self-titled, the recent Von Karajan Bruckner remixes, the Jerusalem self-titled, Swervedriver’s Mezcal Head and Son of Mustang Ford, Rowland S. Howard’s Teenage Snuff Film. I have some limited stuff on there that sounds okay but it would sound better if everything except the for the overcompressed vocals weren’t turned into a noise like hash of distortion or pumped behind them or you could hear more than one drum at once. There are so many records that turn into hash because of older technology and now people misuse modern technology to turn it into hash. And sometimes I’m paid to turn things into hash and fuzz. Believe me the records would sound better if they weren’t fuzzed or slammed. I still hear good sounding at times pop, rock, and metal records where the moment the chorus hits everything becomes more distorted by the limiter or the drums pump everything in and out and even oscillate the vocal back and forth. There’s a lot of rap with subdued beats and cleanly recorded vocals now that sounds okay limited but you can still hear the vocals are so squashed and you can hear even their breaths sound maximized.
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Post by smashlord on Sept 6, 2024 21:08:15 GMT -6
I think it depends on the genre. Music today is more diverse than ever and so are production styles. Pop, country, and hip hop records have bright vocals, but many varieties of rock, indie, metal, etc.. etc.. have darker or filtered vocals all the time.
Lo-fi and 70's sounds are big with the psych and "bedroom pop" peeps. There are whole genres built around abusing Sketch Cassette and RC-20.
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Post by chessparov on Sept 7, 2024 11:21:37 GMT -6
Even Barney is starting to use an Etch-A-Sketch! I draw a line in the sand on that one though.
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