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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 6:11:13 GMT -6
Hello I'm trying to find microphones that will work to record my backing vocals and other secondary sounds. Context : the lead vocal will be quite processed in order to be upfront (if not in your face) and impose itself onto electronic music arrangements. Recorded with a B67-269(v2) microphone to begin with. Possibly later on, a Redd mic / BN251 / SA87T could be used too. So for the backing vocals, harmonies etc, I'm looking for a laidback sound, that naturally goes in the background, doesn't fight the lead vox, doesn't occupy space it doesn't need to, it shouldn't need a ton of resolution (instead be a bit forgiving), and shouldn't capture the room (or overdubs cumulative effect would become a problem). I've noticed the Chandler Type-L so far. In B mode, which is warmer and darker. I think it could work for this specific use. Millsounds made a great demo comparing the Chandler Type-L and the Chandler TG mic. It's the kind of contrast I look for. One mic effortlessly on the front line, and another one effortlessly laidback, but still very beautiful & interesting... What's nice with this mic is the relatively affordable pricetag, the absence of tube and power supply, the small footprint. Do you have other microphones in mind ? Thx  BONUS : this video already uploaded on RGO in the Type-L thread. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 31, 2024 6:58:36 GMT -6
It was a bit unexpected, but I'm finding a lot of singers prefer the B setting when I try the Type L on them. If you look at the first quick video I did on the Type L, I was at my friends place. I've been recording him for at least 15 years now, and he's very opinionated when it comes to his vocal sound. He sang through it at the end of the other video, and he instantly liked B better when he switched over. That setting is obviously not as mid forward and aggressive as the A setting, but I havn't had any issues getting vocals to come through a mix in the B setting so far. It could be a solid choice for some backing vocals if you want them to sit back a little though.
I loved the original TG mic, had it for a while and used it a lot. The Type L just floated my boat a lot more, and still seemed to have all the characteristics I liked in the TG mic, without some of the things that annoyed me about it. I'm glad Chandler did the Type L, I love it.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 31, 2024 7:16:17 GMT -6
I like the Type L on both A and B settings and I think it will just depend on the voice and the context (as it pretty much always does). But for every time I've tried the Type L, one of the settings has always worked and did not disappoint.
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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 8:15:21 GMT -6
It was a bit unexpected, but I'm finding a lot of singers prefer the B setting when I try the Type L on them. If you look at the first quick video I did on the Type L, I was at my friends place. I've been recording him for at least 15 years now, and he's very opinionated when it comes to his vocal sound. He sang through it at the end of the other video, and he instantly liked B better when he switched over. That setting is obviously not as mid forward and aggressive as the A setting, but I havn't had any issues getting vocals to come through a mix in the B setting so far. It could be a solid choice for some backing vocals if you want them to sit back a little though. I loved the original TG mic, had it for a while and used it a lot. The Type L just floated my boat a lot more, and still seemed to have all the characteristics I liked in the TG mic, without some of the things that annoyed me about it. I'm glad Chandler did the Type L, I love it. I watch all your videos ! (I love your voice on the song "this world creates a cycle (...)") The type-L : in term of sound, price, practicality (and visual aspect, it's so cute !), it seems very good. As soon as I heard the Type-L in your videos, I thought "this B setting would be the perfect laidback backing vocal mic for me, I wonder if there are others like this out there". Hence the present thread. I wonder if M7 capsule equiped microphones allow for this kind of smooth voicing too. M49 etc... Heiserman Type 19 (K47 type) has been "compared" to the Type-L in another great youtube test. I love the Type 19 sound, but it's more "in front", compared to the Type L. Somewhat it seems a bit similar to the Soyuz 1973... Doubledog, I have a strong preference for the B setting personally, from what I heard of the mic. For laidback BGV that is. I want contrast between foreground and background. Ideally different capsules between the lead and BGV, too. Thanks for your answers guys ! If you have other favorites for BGV, I'm all ears  ! |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 31, 2024 8:21:12 GMT -6
I'm about to get a pair of Gefell UM70's here in the next week or two (From the mid 1990's, they've got the transformers in them). One of my favorite more modern M7 mics, and Gefell is still making them exactly like Neumann did back in the golden years. I can throw one up next to the Type L at some point, it's been a while since I've used the Gefell's but there might be some nice similarities in the A setting. The UM70's have a bit of a tame and polite proximity effect, and a bit of a peak in the higher frequencies. I'm guessing the UM70's going to be a little bit thinner sounding and slightly brighter, but still smooth. The midrange in the Type L will probably stand out a lot more next to the Gefell.
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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 8:35:27 GMT -6
I can throw one up next to the Type L at some point. (...) The UM70's have a bit of a tame and polite proximity effect, and a bit of a peak in the higher frequencies. I'm guessing the UM70's going to be a little bit thinner sounding and slightly brighter, but still smooth. The midrange in the Type L will probably stand out a lot more next to the Gefell. If you do, please will you let me know what you think of them ? The Beesneez U67 I'm about to receive has a strong Neumann-esque presence in the mids, so a mid-shy BGV microphone could make a lot of sense sense in my newborn mic collection. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 31, 2024 9:05:25 GMT -6
I can throw one up next to the Type L at some point. (...) The UM70's have a bit of a tame and polite proximity effect, and a bit of a peak in the higher frequencies. I'm guessing the UM70's going to be a little bit thinner sounding and slightly brighter, but still smooth. The midrange in the Type L will probably stand out a lot more next to the Gefell. If you do, please will you let me know what you think of them ? The Beesneez U67 I'm about to receive has a strong Neumann-esque presence in the mids, so a mid-shy BGV microphone could make a lot of sense sense in my newborn mic collection. I started out with Gefell's for a few years before I had a chance to use a U87 (The Gefell's I'm getting are from the first studio I worked in). I remember there was a TLM-103 there as well, but that didn't have the typical U87/U67 Neumann midrange, neither did the Gefell. The first time I used a U87, I was kind of shocked how much the midrange stood out to me. It sounded kind of honkey, I didn't like it at all. I had people tell me for years that the U87 was much better than the UM-70, so I had the expectation that the U87 would be a "better" version of the Gefell. It all comes down to preference in the end, but I've never adjusted to U87. It probably has a lot to do with starting with the Gefell mics (that studio had like 6 of the UM-70's at one point, I used them all the time on everything), maybe if I would have started on a U87 in those formative years I might have thought the Gefell's sounded weird. Who knows... All I do know, is that the Gefell UM-70's do not have that Neumann mid range at all. Everyone's going to have their preference, but if you're looking for something different sounding in the mids but like the M7 capsule, a UM-70 could be just the thing. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 31, 2024 9:05:38 GMT -6
If you’ve recorded the lead vox with a LDC, then I think sometimes using a dynamic for BGVs gives a nice contrast. M88, M201, RE10/11/15/16. Sometimes I even really love an Earthworks mic on BGVs - something flatter and unadorned.
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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 9:37:53 GMT -6
If you’ve recorded the lead vox with a LDC, then I think sometimes using a dynamic for BGVs gives a nice contrast. M88, M201, RE10/11/15/16. Sometimes I even really love an Earthworks mic on BGVs - something flatter and unadorned. Is there a specific Earthwork mic you're thinking of, the dynamic Earthworks SR40V ? The choir mics ? lol. They look the part ! Dynamic : I was thinking about picking up a RE20 or PL10 or the Seinheiser MD441 at some point, for studio/rehersal/stage use. Are the RE 10/11/15/16 the vintage predecessors of the RE20 ? Thanks !! |
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Post by doubledog on Aug 31, 2024 9:59:01 GMT -6
I was also going to suggest a ribbon mic maybe? You may need to roll off the low end some (or it might be too big for BGV). Otherwise, on the polar opposite, I've also used the JZ BB-29 for BGV, but it's definitely more the light, airy thing vs laid back. Sometimes better on female BGV (or harmonies) but not always and depends on what you are going for. Sometimes a darker preamp can make a difference too (vs. one that is mid-forward like some are). Over here I used the TG Type L on the "A" setting for lead vocals for this client. Many of the BGV vocals were the BB-29. I honestly don't really even remember specifically which off the top of my head though (some may also have been the TG on A). |
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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 10:21:50 GMT -6
I was also going to suggest a ribbon mic maybe? You may need to roll off the low end some (or it might be too big for BGV). Otherwise, on the polar opposite, I've also used the JZ BB-29 for BGV, but it's definitely more the light, airy thing vs laid back. Sometimes better on female BGV (or harmonies) but not always and depends on what you are going for. Sometimes a darker preamp can make a difference too (vs. one that is mid-forward like some are). Over here I used the TG Type L on the "A" setting for lead vocals for this client. Many of the BGV vocals were the BB-29. I honestly don't really even remember specifically which off the top of my head though (some may also have been the TG on A). (Nice "Blood harmonies".) I am interested in the polar opposite too ! Airy beach boys BGV types, Beatles Because etc. As long as the lead vox can breathe dead center. Options ! Ribbons, I've looked into Samar and AEA for an hour or two. Just scratching the surface obviously. Love their sound. I like that Type L sounds a bit like a ribbon, without being one. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 31, 2024 12:27:40 GMT -6
If you’ve recorded the lead vox with a LDC, then I think sometimes using a dynamic for BGVs gives a nice contrast. M88, M201, RE10/11/15/16. Sometimes I even really love an Earthworks mic on BGVs - something flatter and unadorned. Is there a specific Earthwork mic you're thinking of, the dynamic Earthworks SR40V ? The choir mics ? lol. They look the part ! Dynamic : I was thinking about picking up a RE20 or PL10 or the Seinheiser MD441 at some point, for studio/rehersal/stage use. Are the RE 10/11/15/16 the vintage predecessors of the RE20 ? Thanks !!Re: Earthworks, I have an old version of what is essentially now the SR117. Mine has a different headbasket, but the sound should be very similar if not identical.
Re: dynamic mics, you mention the Sennheiser 441 - that may well be the king of dynamic mics. It's absolutely wonderful on a bunch of sources, vocals being one. If you're in the US, they're fairly expensive, but in Europe they're pretty affordable I believe. The Beyerdynamic M88 is also a killer mic on a lot of sources (vocal being one). In EV land, I do prefer the RE 10/11/15/16 (they're all essentially the same mic with different headbaskets) to the RE20, and it's not close for my personal tastes. The RE20 almost always sounds pinched to me. The 10/11/15/16 have all been out of production for awhile now, so you'd be looking used. There are usually a couple decent copies up on Reverb and eBay. I have two RE11s, and I have no intention of ever letting them go.
There are certainly a number of ways to create contrast between (a) the lead vocal and (b) the background vocals, but using a different type of mic (condenser/dynamic/ribbon/tin-can-with-string) on (a) and (b) is certainly one way.
And seriously, the Senn 441 is a badass mic.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 31, 2024 13:28:13 GMT -6
If you singing also "around Town"... M88 is a no brainer addition to your arsenal.  I'd be too chicken to leave a 441 onstage. Like Elton or Stevie Nicks. "Scooped Mids". Hmm... IMHO tends to be hit and miss. I might end up selling my Soyuz Launcher, since it has somewhat of a "Scooping Effect". (Which adds more "Punch" and "Presence") I don't really sing Hard Rock! Mark Williams' suggestion of contrasting a conventional dynamic mic... Is supposedly what Phil Spector liked a lot to do, on many of his hits. His (effective) Protege', Brian Wilson... Would use a Shure 545 for some of his Lead Vocals (like every Solo Brian does on Pet Sounds). His AE Chuck Britz, loved it on his voice!* ALWAYS would put Mike Love close up on a U47 for deeper Baritone backups. IMHO also within EV, also either 635a or it's "Fraternal Twin" RE50. Chris *My "Arizona Alexi" does sound great on a Shure Unidyne. Was a (West Coast) Motown demo singer for a bit. Beautiful Contralto voice. But ("Danger Dr. Smith") also a Red Head. LOL! |
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Post by lowlou on Aug 31, 2024 14:31:12 GMT -6
Lots of researches to do. I love it ! @ The other Mark William : I dig having some elements flatter and unadorned in the mix. Electronic music (the kind I like) is all about mixing salt and sugar. I will definitely look into the EV lineage. I thought the RE20 sounded great, but I also clearly preferred the 441. I'll have a listen to the older RE 11 etc. If it doesn't break the bank... Chris, as always I appreciate your insider tips and insights . And the jokes ! Keep'em coming guys ! I'm curious to know what are the oddballs or staples you use for BGV. |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 31, 2024 15:14:33 GMT -6
Thanks! I do better "right off" on a M88 or 441 myself. (Over RE20 or RE15) But don't have the AE skills to Process accordingly like others here. To pound into tonal Submission, even a Shure Dynamic! Chris |
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I'd be too chicken to leave a 441 onstage.