lyons
Full Member
Posts: 28
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Post by lyons on Aug 25, 2024 12:36:49 GMT -6
Hi everyone,
Am really keen on the sound of a vari mu (plugin) for vocals. Seems to make things a little fuller and smoother (not sure if that’s the right word) than an la2a. . But I want to use it with a 1176 emulation to catch peaks specifically ie. Just enough input to tame the spikes.
What would you suggest by way of vari mu emulation (am yet to try the mjuc). Also, would you advise the 1176 coming before or after the vari mu or alternatively is there something better than an 1176 as I don’t particularly want the grit/distortion that the 1176 might add and for that reason am having to be very careful not to go too hard.
The material is ballad-ish but with some unruly peaks. Is there a go to compressor for ballad type material? I’ve read about a Fairchild being used on ballads - granted this would have been hardware.
Thanks
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 25, 2024 12:49:09 GMT -6
I’ve used an 1176 with success before a vari mu. It can help grab those peaks…but, if you truly have some unruly parts I find lowering the clip gain on the problem sections to be a life saver. 3-4db of clip gain reduction can be significant in getting the vocals back into the sweet spot of your compressor.
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spud
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by spud on Aug 25, 2024 12:56:31 GMT -6
MMJUC has the advantage of being affordable but otherwise there are plenty of other Vari-Mus that are great. Neold Wunderlich, Lindell Mu-66, Pulsar Mu, UAD Capitol and Fairchild, HCL Islander and Varis, MagicDeathEye... try them. Marc Daniel Nelson uses MJUC before a 1176 or Distressor if it helps. That said it uses an opto between two...
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Post by jacobamerritt on Aug 25, 2024 13:12:01 GMT -6
The PSP 1176 plugin sounds awesome.
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 25, 2024 13:15:47 GMT -6
I mainly track with hw compressors, but occasionally I work vocal tracks from scratch itb. Though I track with la2a clone, which is way fuller and bolder than the counterpart plugs I have, UAD, I usually end up therefore using the arturia sta as plugin. But I rarely need to go down the 1176 into that since the sta has a fast enough setting to work on its own most of the time. If i do the 2 step tracking comp it will always be the 1176 into la2a. The thing with for example sta is that it allows you to compress way more than either 1176 or la2a without getting weird. You can so easy go overboard with it and it still sounds decent.
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 13:25:26 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1
Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit?
This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 25, 2024 15:03:53 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1 Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit? This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus The pulsar 1178 does a pretty good job with peaks when it’s oversampled and look ahead set. |
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Post by craigmorris74 on Aug 25, 2024 16:54:13 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1 Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit? This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus I've found this not to be true after a lot of testing. I've tested the UAD 1176s and the Purple plug against hardware, and they aren't letting peaks slide. No one could reliably tell the difference. The waveform out of the UAD is almost identical. I just tested this on a vocal-20:1 ration fastest attack and release-abusing way more than I would in real life, and confirmed this. I've done on snares and drum bus as well, no rogue peaks.
As a caveat, I don't record modern metal, so no hyper tempos.
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 17:27:49 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1 Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit? This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus I've found this not to be true after a lot of testing. I've tested the UAD 1176s and the Purple plug against hardware, and they aren't letting peaks slide. No one could reliably tell the difference. The waveform out of the UAD is almost identical. I just tested this on a vocal-20:1 ration fastest attack and release-abusing way more than I would in real life, and confirmed this. I've done on snares and drum bussed as well, no rougue peaks.
As a caveat, I don't record modern metal, so no hyper tempos.
What you are claiming is a physical impossibility. The plugins in question cannot detect the wave form, have no way to smooth the response to compensate for that, cannot detect sudden peaks (see bs-1770 version 5 and that detector claims 1 db error but also has hard breaks so that 1 db is a hope wish and pray aka no), operate at 192 kHz which still has rough ice pick overshoots and cannot switch between attack and release with the signal. This is a physical impossibility from circuit models that produce infinite harmonics upon infinite harmonics without clever digital tricks unavailable in analog. Being older plugins and lower cpu, their solvers for the feedback and hysteresis of the UTC transformers must be suboptimal. They also almost surely simplify the circuit and break it apart into separate blocks to simplify the operation but also compromises the sound and functionality like most circuit models. The most advanced audio circuit models are for tubes. The most advanced non tube audio equipment circuit model plugin is definitely the scream which brings cpu cores to their knees to model a hundred dollar pedal for 30 dollars. Any attack as fast as the 1176’s fastest is very close to a clipper, this is non linear with frequency given the jfet and iir filter, will produce massive distortion, and will not be applying it to the peaks of the signal it isn’t reconstructing. If you’re pushing the signal hard into an 1176 which is not logarithmic, you’re massively overcompressing the entire signal. There will be massive pumping and it’s a physical impossibility that it will pump the same as the hardware or even saturate the same through whatever simplified hysteresis equation they are using if they are using one for the transformers. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 25, 2024 17:29:59 GMT -6
Personally the pulsar 1178 is one of my fav plugs, but we work in different genres.
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Post by craigmorris74 on Aug 25, 2024 18:01:35 GMT -6
I've found this not to be true after a lot of testing. I've tested the UAD 1176s and the Purple plug against hardware, and they aren't letting peaks slide. No one could reliably tell the difference. The waveform out of the UAD is almost identical. I just tested this on a vocal-20:1 ration fastest attack and release-abusing way more than I would in real life, and confirmed this. I've done on snares and drum bussed as well, no rougue peaks.
As a caveat, I don't record modern metal, so no hyper tempos.
What you are claiming is a physical impossibility. The plugins in question cannot detect the wave form, have no way to smooth the response to compensate for that, cannot detect sudden peaks (see bs-1770 version 5 and that detector claims 1 db error but also has hard breaks so that 1 db is a hope wish and pray aka no), operate at 192 kHz which still has rough ice pick overshoots and cannot switch between attack and release with the signal. This is a physical impossibility from circuit models that produce infinite harmonics upon infinite harmonics without clever digital tricks unavailable in analog. Being older plugins and lower cpu, their solvers for the feedback and hysteresis of the UTC transformers must be suboptimal. They also almost surely simplify the circuit and break it apart into separate blocks to simplify the operation but also compromises the sound and functionality like most circuit models. The most advanced audio circuit models are for tubes. The most advanced non tube audio equipment circuit model plugin is definitely the scream which brings cpu cores to their knees to model a hundred dollar pedal for 30 dollars. Any attack as fast as the 1176’s fastest is very close to a clipper, this is non linear with frequency given the jfet and iir filter, will produce massive distortion, and will not be applying it to the peaks of the signal it isn’t reconstructing. If you’re pushing the signal hard into an 1176 which is not logarithmic, you’re massively overcompressing the entire signal. There will be massive pumping and it’s a physical impossibility that it will pump the same as the hardware or even saturate the same through whatever simplified hysteresis equation they are using if they are using one for the transformers. I understand that you’re making the arguments that the plugin can’t possibly react fast enough, but in every time I’ve fed music into the plugs I mentioned, they somehow caught peaks just as fast as hardware. And most important, in blind test, I’ve never found anyone who could reliably tell a difference. For OP this thread, my pics are MJUC and Wunderlich. |
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Post by jacobamerritt on Aug 25, 2024 20:01:48 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1 Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit? This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus I guess the multitude of 1176 plugin users making amazing records just... actually make sucky records?  |
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Post by seawell on Aug 25, 2024 21:25:48 GMT -6
The original EMI RS124 plug-in followed by the CLA Bluey was my go to for a long time. In plug-ins or hardware, I like dialing in the tone/vibe/color I'm looking for with the Vari Mu comp first and then following it up with an 1176 to catch anything the Vari Mu may not be fast enough for.
My current favorite Vari Mu plug-ins are traces of my own hardware I've made with STL Controlhub. My traces are free for anyone that would like to grab them in the Controlhub Trace Exchange(just search "Seawell Studios" there) 👍🏼.
In addition to that, Tim Petherick's Ra6 and Vari-Level(both Nebula libraries) and Acustica Coffee(RS124 emulation) are great. Waves RS124 is good as well if the Acustica stuff is too much of a CPU hog to use.
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 21:42:17 GMT -6
What you are claiming is a physical impossibility. The plugins in question cannot detect the wave form, have no way to smooth the response to compensate for that, cannot detect sudden peaks (see bs-1770 version 5 and that detector claims 1 db error but also has hard breaks so that 1 db is a hope wish and pray aka no), operate at 192 kHz which still has rough ice pick overshoots and cannot switch between attack and release with the signal. This is a physical impossibility from circuit models that produce infinite harmonics upon infinite harmonics without clever digital tricks unavailable in analog. Being older plugins and lower cpu, their solvers for the feedback and hysteresis of the UTC transformers must be suboptimal. They also almost surely simplify the circuit and break it apart into separate blocks to simplify the operation but also compromises the sound and functionality like most circuit models. The most advanced audio circuit models are for tubes. The most advanced non tube audio equipment circuit model plugin is definitely the scream which brings cpu cores to their knees to model a hundred dollar pedal for 30 dollars. Any attack as fast as the 1176’s fastest is very close to a clipper, this is non linear with frequency given the jfet and iir filter, will produce massive distortion, and will not be applying it to the peaks of the signal it isn’t reconstructing. If you’re pushing the signal hard into an 1176 which is not logarithmic, you’re massively overcompressing the entire signal. There will be massive pumping and it’s a physical impossibility that it will pump the same as the hardware or even saturate the same through whatever simplified hysteresis equation they are using if they are using one for the transformers. I understand that you’re making the arguments that the plugin can’t possibly react fast enough, but in every time I’ve fed music into the plugs I mentioned, they somehow caught peaks just as fast as hardware. And most important, in blind test, I’ve never found anyone who could reliably tell a difference. For OP this thread, my pics are MJUC and Wunderlich. I just mean it goes from a mostly functional, flexible box, to dysfunctional to semi-functional plugins because digital does not work the same way as analog and has a different set of limitations. Like apply the almost clipper like envelope to only the peakiest peak so that the slow vu meter is barely moving if it all or just minute feedback compressor overshoots on a snare with the slowest attack |
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 21:45:54 GMT -6
1176 plugins suck. They cannot catch the peaks. MJUC is cool if you know how to set the density but isn’t that fast except for the mk1 Why not just learn to use something like Kotelnikov and color the vocal as you see fit? This is what I do with Oxford dynamics with the limiter catching the peaks (it only picks one) but kotelnikov is newer. You can also use the softube Weiss ds1 and tube tech cl1b on mixed fixed and manual, molot ge, mdwdrc but it can misfire on sharp transients, then there’s waves r comp and others where you cannot control the speed up point or the releases separately like an faster la2a or an ssl bus I guess the multitude of 1176 plugin users making amazing records just... actually make sucky records? some of them have artifacts on their recordings that only came from certain 1176 plugins and mostly from a certain one  |
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 21:48:44 GMT -6
The original EMI RS124 plug-in followed by the CLA Bluey was my go to for a long time. In plug-ins or hardware, I like dialing in the tone/vibe/color I'm looking for with the Vari Mu comp first and then following it up with an 1176 to catch anything the Vari Mu may not be fast enough for. My current favorite Vari Mu plug-ins are traces of my own hardware I've made with STL Controlhub. My traces are free for anyone that would like to grab them in the Controlhub Trace Exchange(just search "Seawell Studios" there) 👍🏼. In addition to that, Tim Petherick's Ra6 and Vari-Level(both Nebula libraries) and Acustica Coffee(RS124 emulation) are great. Waves RS124 is good as well if the Acustica stuff is too much of a CPU hog to use. did you see vladg from tdr remade the original rs124 plug as a jsfx? The Fuse VCL-515 is super fun too. Pin the needle to the marks on the meter. Brutally gel things up. PSP OldTimer can sort of do the Altec thing and is free if you have a Pro Tools license with a 10 dollar upgrade to the more flexible ME version. |
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Post by craigmorris74 on Aug 25, 2024 21:59:57 GMT -6
The original EMI RS124 plug-in followed by the CLA Bluey was my go to for a long time. In plug-ins or hardware, I like dialing in the tone/vibe/color I'm looking for with the Vari Mu comp first and then following it up with an 1176 to catch anything the Vari Mu may not be fast enough for. My current favorite Vari Mu plug-ins are traces of my own hardware I've made with STL Controlhub. My traces are free for anyone that would like to grab them in the Controlhub Trace Exchange(just search "Seawell Studios" there) 👍🏼. In addition to that, Tim Petherick's Ra6 and Vari-Level(both Nebula libraries) and Acustica Coffee(RS124 emulation) are great. Waves RS124 is good as well if the Acustica stuff is too much of a CPU hog to use. did you see vladg from tdr remade the original rs124 plug as a jsfx? The Fuse VCL-515 is super fun too. Pin the needle to the marks on the meter. Brutally gel things up. PSP OldTimer can sort of do the Altec thing and is free if you have a Pro Tools license with a 10 dollar upgrade to the more flexible ME version. Where can one find the Vladg rs124? |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 26, 2024 12:04:06 GMT -6
Hi everyone, Am really keen on the sound of a vari mu (plugin) for vocals. Seems to make things a little fuller and smoother (not sure if that’s the right word) than an la2a. . But I want to use it with a 1176 emulation to catch peaks specifically ie. Just enough input to tame the spikes. What would you suggest by way of vari mu emulation (am yet to try the mjuc). Also, would you advise the 1176 coming before or after the vari mu or alternatively is there something better than an 1176 as I don’t particularly want the grit/distortion that the 1176 might add and for that reason am having to be very careful not to go too hard. The material is ballad-ish but with some unruly peaks. Is there a go to compressor for ballad type material? I’ve read about a Fairchild being used on ballads - granted this would have been hardware. Thanks I run a hardware Retro STA Level and BLA Bluey together - sounds fantastic - so I like similar ITB. I have found ITB that there are some quite good vari mu emulations (Arturia STA - MJUC) and the 1176 plugin I pair with them is the CLA Bluey (which the hardware Bluey is based on) Waves really knocked it out of the park with the CLA Bluey (and it's Blakcface option is good too) it has a great envelope and action. I also really like the UAD 1176 collection. But I think the MJUC and Waves BLA Bluey make a really great ITB combo. The pulsar 1178 is great too - there are lot's of really good options ITB for 1176 emulations. CLA Bluey, UAD Collection, Pulsar 1178. |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 26, 2024 12:22:57 GMT -6
I'm mainly using MJUCjr.
For mellower 60's/70's singing
(Think Lightfoot/Croce/Paul Simon/Taylor)...
Is there another nice free or low co$t Limiter?
I realize the 1176 was designed as a fast Peak Limiter.
That works pretty well also?
Thanks! Chris
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Post by craigmorris74 on Aug 26, 2024 14:49:13 GMT -6
I'm mainly using MJUCjr. For mellower 60's/70's singing (Think Lightfoot/Croce/Paul Simon/Taylor*)... Is there another nice free or low co$t Limiter? I realize the 1176 was designed as a fast Peak Limiter. That works pretty well also? Thanks! Chris *NOT Taylor Swift. I highly suspect Eric and Dan are closet Swifties!!  For $25 you can upgrade the MJUC to the full version, which includes two different compressor models, both are cool. |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 26, 2024 16:35:27 GMT -6
I'm mainly using MJUCjr. For mellower 60's/70's singing (Think Lightfoot/Croce/Paul Simon/Taylor*)... Is there another nice free or low co$t Limiter? I realize the 1176 was designed as a fast Peak Limiter. That works pretty well also? Thanks! Chris *NOT Taylor Swift. I highly suspect Eric and Dan are closet Swifties!! The next time the McDSP 6030 goes on sale grab it. 10 comps in one. It covers a lot of ground. |
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