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Post by BradM on Aug 24, 2024 22:32:35 GMT -6
I guess I see it both ways. The plugin developers need to have a return on investment to stay in business. I don’t know if the PA model works for most developers. I definitely bought a bunch of stuff that I otherwise wouldn’t have. Because it was cheap enough to take a chance on. The LTL I bought in the fall through PA. And I paid more for it than the current promotion. In the case of SB considerably more. Was I a bit pissed that I spent hundreds more for something I could have got for $30 or whatever a few months later? I suppose. A bit. But I kinda learned the PA way and there you go. But looking through it from Brad’s lens I don’t really see how it makes sense for them either. Probably works for some and not so much for others. Cheers, Geoff Hey Geoff, Thanks for sharing your perspective. And for buying the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin. I hope you've been finding it useful on your music and mixes. You raise some good questions about who the "high list price, low sale price" model works for these days. I think about this often myself. As I sit here trying to keep my business in the black it's discouraging seeing those quarterly per-license numbers when I know how hard my team worked on this. I think I spent less time, money, and energy working on developing the hardware. Brad |
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 24, 2024 23:15:41 GMT -6
I guess I see it both ways. The plugin developers need to have a return on investment to stay in business. I don’t know if the PA model works for most developers. I definitely bought a bunch of stuff that I otherwise wouldn’t have. Because it was cheap enough to take a chance on. The LTL I bought in the fall through PA. And I paid more for it than the current promotion. In the case of SB considerably more. Was I a bit pissed that I spent hundreds more for something I could have got for $30 or whatever a few months later? I suppose. A bit. But I kinda learned the PA way and there you go. But looking through it from Brad’s lens I don’t really see how it makes sense for them either. Probably works for some and not so much for others. Cheers, Geoff Hey Geoff, Thanks for sharing your perspective. And for buying the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin. I hope you've been finding it useful on your music and mixes. You raise some good questions about who the "high list price, low sale price" model works for these days. I think about this often myself. As I sit here trying to keep my business in the black it's discouraging seeing those quarterly per-license numbers when I know how hard my team worked on this. I think I spent less time, money, and energy working on developing the hardware. Brad Its a good plugin! I just didn’t even really get my head around it before it was massively discounted. I could have waited if I knew that was coming. At the end of the day though it is a good plugin. Full stop. Cheers, Geoff |
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 0:06:56 GMT -6
I guess I see it both ways. The plugin developers need to have a return on investment to stay in business. I don’t know if the PA model works for most developers. I definitely bought a bunch of stuff that I otherwise wouldn’t have. Because it was cheap enough to take a chance on. The LTL I bought in the fall through PA. And I paid more for it than the current promotion. In the case of SB considerably more. Was I a bit pissed that I spent hundreds more for something I could have got for $30 or whatever a few months later? I suppose. A bit. But I kinda learned the PA way and there you go. But looking through it from Brad’s lens I don’t really see how it makes sense for them either. Probably works for some and not so much for others. Cheers, Geoff Hey Geoff, Thanks for sharing your perspective. And for buying the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin. I hope you've been finding it useful on your music and mixes. You raise some good questions about who the "high list price, low sale price" model works for these days. I think about this often myself. As I sit here trying to keep my business in the black it's discouraging seeing those quarterly per-license numbers when I know how hard my team worked on this. I think I spent less time, money, and energy working on developing the hardware. Brad Most of the expensive plugs I bought I use regularly: sonnox Oxford, sound radix bundle, uhe and I don’t regret them at all. Others are buggy and I regret. Or dead ☠️ |
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Post by theshea on Aug 25, 2024 0:53:16 GMT -6
„creators“ get screwed everywhere in the so called music biz. songwriters, bands, plugin developers … the ones that don‘t create make the money. because they are the real business people - innit for the money.
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Post by christophert on Aug 25, 2024 2:11:04 GMT -6
christophert you will be happy to have sbmkii. I am sorry Brad that you see so little for your work, that’s not right. But, with respect, I won’t be buying any $350 usd plug ins. I think everyone has wised up that individual plug ins are just not worth that kind of money. UA, almost always the trad high price leader has completely caved on its pricing, so you are now pricing in a very fluid environment. Support costs money, but if you sold your plug only directly for say $100, you see a lot more than you see now and how much would your own support actually cost you: maybe revisit that? Hi, I totally understand your position. I don't think I have ever spent $350 on a plugin. There are definitely things that I believe are worth more than I paid, however. I feel like the sweet spot for plugins in 2024 is somewhere between $29 and $149 depending on the complexity, usefulness, and sonics of the plugin. I agree if I were able to sell my plugins direct and have 100% control over the pricing then it would probably be a different reality. But like I mentioned, I'm obligated to respect a contract I signed in 2018 when my company was much younger and the accepted pricing models were different. So my hands are tied, as PA has the discretion to set the pricing. To the others...thanks for your comments and words of support. I appreciate it. Brad Time to make the Golden Bullet  |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 25, 2024 5:34:17 GMT -6
All good, I have had nothing but great experiences with you, your company and products.
Ironically, only problem I had was with the plug in and slow support.
I understand your contractual situation, perhaps get some advice about breaking contract/payment to get out of it and relaunch your own plug in store with support and build your brand: your way: the right way !
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Post by Quint on Aug 25, 2024 7:36:11 GMT -6
Hi all, This thread and the sale / promotion that the OP mentioned was just shared with me by a friend. Since many of you are friends and supporters of LTL I thought I should drop by and share my feelings and thoughts about this. To be completely honest this super low price surprised me. I was not aware of this promotion until this morning. As Darren mentioned, yeah we did work really hard on this plugin for well over a year. It was probably the most challenging product development I've been involved with to date especially since the hardware set a benchmark we needed to match. As I'm sure many of you would agree, it's disheartening to see your hard work devalued. And frustrating when it's a challenge to at least coordinate and synchronize for consistency. Let's talk about pricing. I'm going to be completely transparent with you all since I respect you guys. As you may know, I personally believe in setting fair prices for my products that give the customer a lot of value and bang-for-buck. This is one of the big reasons I've never had dealers and have only sold my products direct...so I can keep the costs low for you all. In an ideal world I'd love to sell the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin for somewhere between $99 and $149 and rarely have a sale on it. However, that's not exactly how the Plugin Alliance business model works. I signed a contract with Plugin Alliance to distribute (market/sell) both Chop Shop EQ and any future Silver Bullet plugins back in 2018. At that time PA was only selling perpetual licenses and they didn't have the subscription model. That came later. I talked to some of the other brands that were on the roster at the time and they were seeing good results from PA despite the less conventional sales model that I might not choose for myself. So I took a chance. Since 2018 many things have changed. Here's why the plugin is listed at $350 and why I fought for it to be as high as possible. From my perspective it has little to do with thinking people will pay more for it initially (although I truly believe *this* plugin is actually worth the $350...I'm very proud of it sonically). It has to do with the way profits are shared on the subscriptions...at least from my perspective as a business owner trying to make a profit. I think the unspoken part is that everyone assumes there will be a sale or voucher at some point that will bring the price down. There are hundreds of plugins in the subscription bundles. Currently the way that the profit share is calculated is based on old-school piece of the pie math. If I have more pieces of pie at greater value, then I get a bigger check when royalties are calculated even if the price is discounted. This simplistic royalty calculation incentivizes me to fight for the highest list price I can. It even incentivizes me to create as many plugins as I can for the bundle. If Brainworx has 80 plugins in the bundle and Louder Than Liftoff only has 2 then you can imagine how small my piece of the pie might be. In the future I'd love to see royalties calculated based on a customer usage model somehow. Let's look at how big my piece of the pie was this last quarter. My royalty payout is comprised of two numbers: 1) subscription sales, 2) perpetual license sales. For every sale I make on my own website I get to keep 90% of the profits. For every sale that PA makes on their website I get to keep 60%. Plugin Alliance is handling marketing, sales, customer support, bug tracking, licensing, etc. so their 40% is essentially their fee for providing me those services. Whether or not you think that split is fair is another discussion, but that's the deal I signed back in 2018. It is what it is. This last quarter I took home $0.56 on each Chop Shop perpetual license, and $0.0069 on each subscription license. That's 56 cents and less than 1 cent...you read that right. For Silver Bullet mk2 I took home $7.91 on each perpetual license and $0.0371 on each subscription license. Oh and by the way I have to pay royalties to my developers out of those payouts. So what personally goes in my pocket is less than those numbers. Now you hopefully see why I wanted to have that list price be as high as possible. Let's contrast that with what goes in my pocket when I make a sale on my own website. For the launch of the plugin we had it on sale for $180. I was able to keep $162. Contrast that with $7.91. If anyone would like to buy this plugin right now, get an equivalent deal, and support the people that worked really hard to create it you may use this discount code on louderthanliftoff.com to get the plugin for $20: SUPPORTCREATORS [edit: just head to the website, no coupon needed] Thanks for listening and supporting the mission, Brad Man, that's rough. Talk about race to the bottom on price. I've never bought anything from PA and I don't really do subscriptions, for the most part (streaming services being the exception). I think your post just further solidified my stance on these things. For a while now, I've advocated that I think the sweet spot on plugin pricing is around $75 to $100 per plugin, so that's interesting to hear that this falls right in the middle of the price range that you suggest for plugin pricing. There's nothing wrong with paying for quality, hard work, and support. I would rather pay $100 for a plugin that I know won't have bugs, and that will be properly supported, rather than pay $29 (or less) for a plugin that does have bugs, won't be properly supported, and just generally contributes to the financial precariousness of the company that develops said plugins. I blame Waves for some of this $29 all the time, always on sale, nonsense. That said, they aren't the only ones who have helped to move the market in this direction. I'd rather have 10 plugins that I paid $100 a piece for than 100 plugins that I paid $10 a piece for. Quality over quantity. But the market has moved in the cheap, cheap direction, regardless of the reasons why. I've never really paid much attention to the PA business model, as I've never been a PA customer, but, based on how you describe it, it kind of sounds like Spotify. Sell the illusion of access to the broadest base of customers in exchange for getting payed almost nothing on any individual sale. Ugh... |
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Post by BradM on Aug 25, 2024 9:50:16 GMT -6
Man, that's rough. Talk about race to the bottom on price. I've never bought anything from PA and I don't really do subscriptions, for the most part (streaming services being the exception). I think your post just further solidified my stance on these things. For a while now, I've advocated that I think the sweet spot on plugin pricing is around $75 to $100 per plugin, so that's interesting to hear that this falls right in the middle of the price range that you suggest for plugin pricing. There's nothing wrong with paying for quality, hard work, and support. I would rather pay $100 for a plugin that I know won't have bugs, and that will be properly supported, rather than pay $29 (or less) for a plugin that does have bugs, won't be properly supported, and just generally contributes to the financial precariousness of the company that develops said plugins. I blame Waves for some of this $29 all the time, always on sale, nonsense. That said, they aren't the only ones who have helped to move the market in this direction. I'd rather have 10 plugins that I paid $100 a piece for than 100 plugins that I paid $10 a piece for. Quality over quantity. But the market has moved in the cheap, cheap direction, regardless of the reasons why. I've never really paid much attention to the PA business model, as I've never been a PA customer, but, based on how you describe it, it kind of sounds like Spotify. Sell the illusion of access to the broadest base of customers in exchange for getting payed almost nothing on any individual sale. Ugh... It does kind of seem like Waves started the blow-out pricing on plugins from what I remember too. But they were also a company that had really high list prices for plugins…thousands of dollars for some bundles if I’m remembering correctly. It just seems like an outdated model. It’s fun to have a sale every once in a while and entice new customers to explore what you have to offer. But it seems like if you can only sell your product if it’s on sale then either a) your pricing is off, or b) the economy is really in a bad spot. Maybe there’s a little bit of both happening. When I wrote out the royalty numbers yesterday that’s exactly what I thought of too–“damn this is kind of like Spotify”. Let me ask you guys a question. If the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin were to have a consistent price year round, what do you think would be reasonable and fair based on your experience buying and using other plugins with similar levels of sonics and features? Thanks, Brad |
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Post by phantom on Aug 25, 2024 9:58:04 GMT -6
Man, that's rough. Talk about race to the bottom on price. I've never bought anything from PA and I don't really do subscriptions, for the most part (streaming services being the exception). I think your post just further solidified my stance on these things. For a while now, I've advocated that I think the sweet spot on plugin pricing is around $75 to $100 per plugin, so that's interesting to hear that this falls right in the middle of the price range that you suggest for plugin pricing. There's nothing wrong with paying for quality, hard work, and support. I would rather pay $100 for a plugin that I know won't have bugs, and that will be properly supported, rather than pay $29 (or less) for a plugin that does have bugs, won't be properly supported, and just generally contributes to the financial precariousness of the company that develops said plugins. I blame Waves for some of this $29 all the time, always on sale, nonsense. That said, they aren't the only ones who have helped to move the market in this direction. I'd rather have 10 plugins that I paid $100 a piece for than 100 plugins that I paid $10 a piece for. Quality over quantity. But the market has moved in the cheap, cheap direction, regardless of the reasons why. I've never really paid much attention to the PA business model, as I've never been a PA customer, but, based on how you describe it, it kind of sounds like Spotify. Sell the illusion of access to the broadest base of customers in exchange for getting payed almost nothing on any individual sale. Ugh... It does kind of seem like Waves started the blow-out pricing on plugins from what I remember too. But they were also a company that had really high list prices for plugins…thousands of dollars for some bundles if I’m remembering correctly. It just seems like an outdated model. It’s fun to have a sale every once in a while and entice new customers to explore what you have to offer. But it seems like if you can only sell your product if it’s on sale then either a) your pricing is off, or b) the economy is really in a bad spot. Maybe there’s a little bit of both happening. When I wrote out the royalty numbers yesterday that’s exactly what I thought of too–“damn this is kind of like Spotify”. Let me ask you guys a question. If the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin were to have a consistent price year round, what do you think would be reasonable and fair based on your experience buying and using other plugins with similar levels of sonics and features? Thanks, Brad I think that $99 will make people buy it for full price instead of waiting for a sale. I mean, it being on PA make things worse, because everyone knows that it'll eventually be $19 multiple times a year. But yeah, I would happily pay $99 for the Silver Bullet plugin. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 25, 2024 10:10:33 GMT -6
christophert you will be happy to have sbmkii. I am sorry Brad that you see so little for your work, that’s not right. But, with respect, I won’t be buying any $350 usd plug ins. I think everyone has wised up that individual plug ins are just not worth that kind of money. UA, almost always the trad high price leader has completely caved on its pricing, so you are now pricing in a very fluid environment. Support costs money, but if you sold your plug only directly for say $100, you see a lot more than you see now and how much would your own support actually cost you: maybe revisit that? Hi, I totally understand your position. I don't think I have ever spent $350 on a plugin. There are definitely things that I believe are worth more than I paid, however. I feel like the sweet spot for plugins in 2024 is somewhere between $29 and $149 depending on the complexity, usefulness, and sonics of the plugin. I agree if I were able to sell my plugins direct and have 100% control over the pricing then it would probably be a different reality. But like I mentioned, I'm obligated to respect a contract I signed in 2018 when my company was much younger and the accepted pricing models were different. So my hands are tied, as PA has the discretion to set the pricing. To the others...thanks for your comments and words of support. I appreciate it. Brad I'm just about to buy the George Massenburg MDWDRC2. It costs $399. That's it, take it or leave. Only he sells it, he knows it's worth $399 because it perfectly emulates a hardware device that costs about $6000 (if you can find one) I demoed it - to me it's worth $399. It's unique and sounds truly fantastic. He's just like the guy behind the Sonoris plugins, he only has a few plugins - there are no sales - and the price is the price and the quality of the plugin sells the plugin. Surely, your fantastic sounding Silver Bullet plugin (an emulation of your fantastic sounding highly regarded and established Silver Bullet hardware) deserves the same approach? It cost $xx - no sales - it's without doubt unique and only you sell it. Quality tools cost - same as your hardware. Otherwise as Quint said - it's a race to the bottom and everyone comes to feel software being "only a licence" and not a physical object has very little value. Even though it does have great value as it's a huge amount of work to produce a 1:1 emulation and also your designs have enormous intellectual property value. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 25, 2024 11:22:40 GMT -6
Man, that's rough. Talk about race to the bottom on price. I've never bought anything from PA and I don't really do subscriptions, for the most part (streaming services being the exception). I think your post just further solidified my stance on these things. For a while now, I've advocated that I think the sweet spot on plugin pricing is around $75 to $100 per plugin, so that's interesting to hear that this falls right in the middle of the price range that you suggest for plugin pricing. There's nothing wrong with paying for quality, hard work, and support. I would rather pay $100 for a plugin that I know won't have bugs, and that will be properly supported, rather than pay $29 (or less) for a plugin that does have bugs, won't be properly supported, and just generally contributes to the financial precariousness of the company that develops said plugins. I blame Waves for some of this $29 all the time, always on sale, nonsense. That said, they aren't the only ones who have helped to move the market in this direction. I'd rather have 10 plugins that I paid $100 a piece for than 100 plugins that I paid $10 a piece for. Quality over quantity. But the market has moved in the cheap, cheap direction, regardless of the reasons why. I've never really paid much attention to the PA business model, as I've never been a PA customer, but, based on how you describe it, it kind of sounds like Spotify. Sell the illusion of access to the broadest base of customers in exchange for getting payed almost nothing on any individual sale. Ugh... It does kind of seem like Waves started the blow-out pricing on plugins from what I remember too. But they were also a company that had really high list prices for plugins…thousands of dollars for some bundles if I’m remembering correctly. It just seems like an outdated model. It’s fun to have a sale every once in a while and entice new customers to explore what you have to offer. But it seems like if you can only sell your product if it’s on sale then either a) your pricing is off, or b) the economy is really in a bad spot. Maybe there’s a little bit of both happening. When I wrote out the royalty numbers yesterday that’s exactly what I thought of too–“damn this is kind of like Spotify”. Let me ask you guys a question. If the Silver Bullet mk2 plugin were to have a consistent price year round, what do you think would be reasonable and fair based on your experience buying and using other plugins with similar levels of sonics and features? Thanks, Brad Most of them don’t want to do anything new or even model weird stuff. We have marketing guys hiring people who can barely code, getting celebrity producer endorsements, and paying randos with old forum accounts to promote their products. Some hardware manufacturers have tried similar things and sold equally dysfunctional setups. Waves had a mature product line they probably spent millions developing in the old school utility plugs and Renaissance series, wanted more money, did the analog emulations that are bs to toys with SSL, API, CLA, JJP etc and then firesaled everything when all but the choice exceptions of their utility plugs were behind everything. The failed subscription only move was the end and now all they have left are some of the utility plugs and Clarity Pro. Sony similarly and did stuff like developing modern converters too but then spun it off, got out pro audio, and Sonnox still makes great stuff even if it’s hit or miss (Envolution isn’t as good as trans mod. Claro is buggy) but finally sold itself to Focusrite. Similar plugins are Decapitator, SDRR2 (less drastic), Inflator (much simpler). I think it needs to be priced between “it has value” and “just buy it” 50-100 bucks is a good starting point. Klanghelm is cheap because it’s just one guy. But we’ve seen even u-He and TDR have sales now to get income in this economy. And the supposed competitors to better their synths and utility plugs don’t really exist if you’re used them all for a while. |
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Post by Quint on Aug 25, 2024 11:40:32 GMT -6
Hi, I totally understand your position. I don't think I have ever spent $350 on a plugin. There are definitely things that I believe are worth more than I paid, however. I feel like the sweet spot for plugins in 2024 is somewhere between $29 and $149 depending on the complexity, usefulness, and sonics of the plugin. I agree if I were able to sell my plugins direct and have 100% control over the pricing then it would probably be a different reality. But like I mentioned, I'm obligated to respect a contract I signed in 2018 when my company was much younger and the accepted pricing models were different. So my hands are tied, as PA has the discretion to set the pricing. To the others...thanks for your comments and words of support. I appreciate it. Brad I'm just about to buy the George Massenburg MDWDRC2. It costs $399. That's it, take it or leave. Only he sells it, he knows it's worth $399 because it perfectly emulates a hardware device that costs about $6000 (if you can find one) I demoed it - to me it's worth $399. It's unique and sounds truly fantastic. He's just like the guy behind the Sonoris plugins, he only has a few plugins - there are no sales - and the price is the price and the quality of the plugin sells the plugin. Surely, your fantastic sounding Silver Bullet plugin (an emulation of your fantastic sounding highly regarded and established Silver Bullet hardware) deserves the same approach? It cost $xx - no sales - it's without doubt unique and only you sell it. Quality tools cost - same as your hardware. Otherwise as Quint said - it's a race to the bottom and everyone comes to feel software being "only a licence" and not a physical object has very little value. Even though it does have great value as it's a huge amount of work to produce a 1:1 emulation and also your designs have enormous intellectual property value. Like many of us, I come from the days when $149 was a good sale price for UAD plugins. Granted, times have changed, and UA feels that they can no longer charge those sort of prices, and that's their prerogative. But, personally, I would still happily pay $149 prices for those plugins if UA actually brought back the customer service that came as part of the deal. Similarly, I would happily pay $150 for something like the Silver Bullet plugin or for any other plugin which feels like it is a legit tool. Case in point, Pulsar Modular, Massenberg, and MBSI all seem to be currently charging $150 or more for their plugins, and people still seem to be okay with paying that amount. So I wouldn't say it is an absolute that all plugins must be sold for $29. It depends if you offer something that is compelling that people will pay those higher prices. Conversely, I do have to wonder how serious anybody will ever take a particular plugin if you can buy it for peanuts? Maybe that's the trick? Keep it at a premium price and maybe people will think it deserves a premium price. Perception matters a lot here, I would think. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 25, 2024 11:58:57 GMT -6
The trouble with even midpoint plug in pricing is cumulative value proposition: let’s take $149 usd and let’s say per year you buy 3-5 plug ins so now $350 -$500 usd.
Not to bore you but I’m in Canada so now that’s at the top end the better part of $700 cdn, so I start thinking hold your horses, do K want software or would I rather buy used hardware and have a tangible asset, I can sell?
As a real life example , I ‘d love to have a Grace or Hardy 2 channel per, there is a Grace for sale now asking $1500 usd.
Ya, a long way from a plug in for $149, but given the money I, we have all wasted on plug ins we barely or don’t use and can’t sell individually, ya, I’m talking to you UA, what’s the better value proposition?
I lean towards the hardware or a plug in had better blow my doors off when I demo it or I’m not buying.
I had a completely positive experience demoing sbmkii but did wait for lower price and then did have problems with saved sessions having noise created by sbmkii, I ‘d have to reinstantiate, reset tedious, support was slow and I have ended up not using sbmkii as I am not certain about its stability, so why bother.
So, I would think twice about plunking down another $150, if I have to deal with PA support. I did eventually get useful answers but no real explanation, problem only occurred with sbmkii, so I suspected the PA coding or wrapper was the problem, so why buy from them again?
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Post by doubledog on Aug 25, 2024 16:37:30 GMT -6
I think one of the differences with Waves is that if you want continued support/updates (after you've paid $29 or $750), then you get WUPped (ouch!). I'm not suggesting anyone else do this, but that's one way they are likely recouping some of the blowout costs, while I don't see PA, UA, and others doing that (thankfully). Although they might be shortsighted when trying to match the Waves pricing models and not considering this?
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Post by BradM on Aug 26, 2024 13:38:12 GMT -6
The trouble with even midpoint plug in pricing is cumulative value proposition: let’s take $149 usd and let’s say per year you buy 3-5 plug ins so now $350 -$500 usd. Not to bore you but I’m in Canada so now that’s at the top end the better part of $700 cdn, so I start thinking hold your horses, do K want software or would I rather buy used hardware and have a tangible asset, I can sell? As a real life example , I ‘d love to have a Grace or Hardy 2 channel per, there is a Grace for sale now asking $1500 usd. Ya, a long way from a plug in for $149, but given the money I, we have all wasted on plug ins we barely or don’t use and can’t sell individually, ya, I’m talking to you UA, what’s the better value proposition? I lean towards the hardware or a plug in had better blow my doors off when I demo it or I’m not buying. I had a completely positive experience demoing sbmkii but did wait for lower price and then did have problems with saved sessions having noise created by sbmkii, I ‘d have to reinstantiate, reset tedious, support was slow and I have ended up not using sbmkii as I am not certain about its stability, so why bother. So, I would think twice about plunking down another $150, if I have to deal with PA support. I did eventually get useful answers but no real explanation, problem only occurred with sbmkii, so I suspected the PA coding or wrapper was the problem, so why buy from them again? If you can email me some info about the noise issues you were having I can check to see if it might be something we are in the process of address in the update we are currently working on. I’m sorry you were having trouble. It’s definitely much more challenging creating a bug free software product in light of all the DAW, plugin standards, and OS versions. But me and the guys genuinely do want to make it as rock solid as we can. So if I can trouble to send me some info that would really help. To be clear, PA or Brainworx is not involved in the coding of LTL plugins. The only code we integrate from them is the toolbar and the licensing. All the DSP and functionality of the plugin itself is a result of the work my team does. So I take responsibility for any issues related to our work. Brad |
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Post by gwlee7 on Aug 26, 2024 17:21:30 GMT -6
^^^^why can’t everyone be like that? Hey, it’s ours, let us sort it out.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 26, 2024 17:46:25 GMT -6
I suppose somewhere around the $150 mark would be about my limit for something that doesn’t go on sale. Although I have been sitting on my Wallet for some stuff around that price. I spent that on a Kush plugin and then got Wuped, or Kuped I guess, and that has me very reluctant to buy anything from them again. It’s one thing knowing you are going to get screwed over buying a supposedly perpetual license (yes Waves, I am speaking directly to you) but it’s another when you are not expecting it.
Which brings up another point. Updates. How do you manage that when you have a product some bought for $350 and others for $20? I don’t have a good answer for that.
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 26, 2024 21:35:34 GMT -6
You know, a lot of these modern PA offerings sound a ton better than what we had before in most plugs. I'll say again what I said before how the PA SPL PQ outclassed multiple Massive Passive emulations along with some other hardware-modeled eqs and sounded like it was in the same league as the Massive Passive hardware when I tried it on Access Analog. It's impossible for me to tell it apart from the hardware in the Audio Animals video. Though with the way things change as you increase the input, the hardware will probably have an edge when pushed since it seems to be more of a saturation effect that reduces dynamic range. A mastering guy sent me some files and it lost 2 db of dynamic range. One filed labeled 11hz to 1k Cut sweep Under -14dB less load (DR9) and another 11hz to 1k Cut sweep Under +14dB hot load (DR7). The plugin emulates this behavior too.
The Silver Bullet is even better than the Century Tube as part of my sub-mixes, so it's on there now after trying it again. I'm mainly just using the Hitmaker C mojo and not turning up N and A. Tiny amounts of eq. Vintage and Aspect Ratio. Far surpassed my mixes using other stuff in that part of the sub-mix chain. I limited myself to two PA plugin purchases this time. The Vac Attack is great at getting drums to vibe and sit. I preferred it over SDRR, The Oven, Shadow Hills, and a few other things. The Oven is quite interesting and potentially very useful. I'm still seeing where else I want to use Vac Attack. Bettermaker Bus Comp was too clean, didn't find much special about it. Guess it's competent enough. I don't like to push plugin comps and I don't really engage much plugin saturation aside from Satin. I'd rather leave that stuff to hardware. I still think the PA Green Shadow Hills is highly underrated. These days I don't really care to use many compressors aside from Shadow Hills plugin or hardware. It's what I preferred in all those GS shootout wav files too. The other plug I got was the DSCEQ. It provides a lot of glue and vibe, decently more than the PQ. Not as clear though, but it doesn't need to be. The bass on this one and Vac Attack are very nice. They both have these smooth and full sound signatures.
Had to make quick decisions as I heard the $19.99 coupon expired last night. I'm kinda at the limit of what my cpu will handle. So, I'd have to find something else that would replace stuff like Satin or Dopamine while also maintaining the same cpu efficiency. I'm not looking at this stuff in Plugin Doctor or anything. Objective measurements and findings are always appreciated, but you really just have to try things and figure out what they do best. No plugins are being used across my whole mix until after hardware. I may have very different views on these plugs if I was using them across a whole mix without hardware treatment. The only plugs I'm using across a hardware-treated mix are an eq like PQ or DSCEQ, Basslane Pro, most of the TDR filters, and Cedar Adaptive Limiter 2.
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Post by Dan on Aug 26, 2024 23:03:49 GMT -6
You can buy it from Brad directly for less than a bar tab. It makes stuff louder and better like Inflator or Decapitator type A. Just buy it.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 28, 2024 18:51:05 GMT -6
Not trying to hornets' nest this thing, but found this timing interesting with this thread in mind. Had no idea Ulrich lived near Dallas. Ulrich's home listed for $27.5M |
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 28, 2024 19:42:41 GMT -6
Ok to add a bit more to the upgrade piece of the puzzle. I noted upthread that I got Wuped by Kush. And it looks like it is happening again. They just announced the UBK2. Now available for $99 or upgrade for $49. Problem is I paid $150 already as an early adopter. Which helped launch the company and keep it afloat. So new users can get it for $99 where if upgrade I am in for the current full price of $200. Can you see why that gets my nose bent out of shape?
Otoh there is a bunch of new stuff with this update. So it is not like Waves where they are essentially punishing you for being on a Mac.
But at the end of the day. I no longer look at Waves. They may as well cease to exist for me. A perpetual license should mean perpetual. So I do look at the Kush model somewhat differently but I still think that model is not for me.
Thoughts?
Cheers,
Geoff
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Post by doubledog on Aug 28, 2024 21:53:23 GMT -6
So it is not like Waves where they are essentially punishing you for being on a Mac. I'm certainly not trying to defend Waves, but they are likely not the ones punishing you for being on a Mac. Did they release the OS update that broke everything? Nope. I've been using my Waves plugins (mostly v13 and some v14 on Windows) without WUP for several years (since 2021) and they still work fine (and when they don't I'll have to find an alternative). Oh yeah. I've got other complaints, but that's not one of them.  |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 29, 2024 4:25:33 GMT -6
Paying a reasonable amount for an update based on initial price makes some sense as developers need to turn a profit to remain viable/open or just keep using the one you bought.
Developers need to keep plugs current with major platform changes (m silicon).
Did perpetual really mean perpetual: free updates forever: nice thought, but not very realistic, as market appetite for new higher cost plug ins wanes ?
Seems to me lower retail purchase costs, may necessitate , reasonable (small update costs), but if you have, say 100 plugs, how many will you pay to update ?
Suddenly, hardware starts to look more attractive again ?
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Post by bossanova on Aug 29, 2024 6:37:26 GMT -6
Paying a reasonable amount for an update based on initial price makes some sense as developers need to turn a profit to remain viable/open or just keep using the one you bought. Developers need to keep plugs current with major platform changes (m silicon). Did perpetual really mean perpetual: free updates forever: nice thought, but not very realistic, as market appetite for new higher cost plug ins wanes ? Seems to me lower retail purchase costs, may necessitate , reasonable (small update costs), but if you have, say 100 plugs, how many will you pay to update ? Suddenly, hardware starts to look more attractive again ? I don't understand how developers like Valhalla stay in business when Sean's prices are so low to begin with, and he's added a new plug's worth of algorithms to his flagship offerings over time at no additional charge to existing owners. Even a $10 fee for one of his major version updates seems fair. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 29, 2024 7:07:13 GMT -6
Guess, it comes down to overhead:size of operation ?
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