|
Post by bluesholyman on Aug 15, 2024 13:16:23 GMT -6
So, if I have one monitor using a 6ft cable, lets assume its a balanced Mogami and the other monitor using a 10ft balanced Mogami, am I going to hear that? Will I "feel" that? Its 4ft, but my mind goes there and keeps me awake at night because it can...
Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by Shadowk on Aug 15, 2024 13:26:47 GMT -6
Nope..
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2024 13:26:58 GMT -6
No you won’t hear it.
|
|
|
Post by andersmv on Aug 15, 2024 13:37:29 GMT -6
I would have had my engineer card revoked over a decade ago if this made a difference . I guarantee you all the surround sound people would have been screwed decades ago as well. I concur , does not matter. I did run into an issue once in a home studio where someone had an XLR plugged into one speaker and a TRS plugged into the other one. I wouldn't recommend pushing the boundaries that far, but cable length isn't going to be a problem...
|
|
|
Post by anders on Aug 15, 2024 15:12:27 GMT -6
If I'm doing the maths right, you'll be getting in the region of 1 millisecond delay from 200 kilometers of cable.
|
|
|
Post by Pueblo Audio on Aug 15, 2024 15:18:11 GMT -6
Brace yourselves for some “heressy ” :-)
Let me rephrase the OP’s questions two ways.
1. “will I hear a difference if…” This we cannot answer because we don’t know your level of attention to detail nor critical listing acumen. You judge your perception personally.
2. “Will a material difference in the monitoring path create a detectable difference in perceived sound?” In my decades at a mastering studio I can report YES. I have had engineers come into the shop complaining something’s wrong. Unknown to them there had been a seemingly irrelevant capacitor or cable temporarily swapped while a repair was underway and we forgot to tell them. They didn’t know what was going on but they detected the change. That’s because they operate in a highly calibrated monitoring environment every day, all day,for decades. They are acclimated and in a position to recognize minute changes.
Now if you don’t have that environment or years in place, probably will go unnoticed. Will it sabotage a mix? Most likely not. Level of anxiety should be low.
But…
It’s not right on its face. And it’s not hard to put equal lengths and quality of cable to your two speakers. Easy. Remove seemingly irrelevant errors wherever you spot them. Dot all the i’s and cross those t’s. Good engineering is mostly about removing small errors tjat are cheap or free. More about avoiding slowly boiling the frog, rather than being super creative /thinking outside the box.
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 15, 2024 15:23:24 GMT -6
Brace yourselves for some “heressy ” :-) Let me rephrase the OP’s questions two ways. 1. “will I hear a difference if…” This we cannot answer because we don’t know your level of attention to detail nor critical listing acumen. You judge your perception personally. 2. “Will a material difference in the monitoring path create a detectable difference in perceived sound?” In my decades at a mastering studio I can report YES. I have had engineers come into the shop complaining something’s wrong. Unknown to them there had been a seemingly irrelevant capacitor or cable temporarily swapped while a repair was underway and we forgot to tell them. They didn’t know what was going on but they detected the change. That’s because they operate in a highly calibrated monitoring environment every day, all day,for decades. They are acclimated and in a position to recognize minute changes. Now if you don’t have that environment or years in place, probably will go unnoticed. Will it sabotage a mix? Maybe, most likely not. Level of anxiety should be low. But… It’s not right on its face. And it’s not hard to put equal lengths and quality of cable to your two speakers. Easy. Remove seemingly irrelevant errors wherever you spot them. Dot all the i’s and cross those t’s. Good engineering is mostly about removing small errors tjat are cheap or free. More about avoiding slowly boiling the frog, rather than being super creative /thinking outside the box. On the other hand, the speed of light is wicked fast.
|
|
|
Post by Pueblo Audio on Aug 15, 2024 15:29:03 GMT -6
Brace yourselves for some “heressy ” :-) Let me rephrase the OP’s questions two ways. 1. “will I hear a difference if…” This we cannot answer because we don’t know your level of attention to detail nor critical listing acumen. You judge your perception personally. 2. “Will a material difference in the monitoring path create a detectable difference in perceived sound?” In my decades at a mastering studio I can report YES. I have had engineers come into the shop complaining something’s wrong. Unknown to them there had been a seemingly irrelevant capacitor or cable temporarily swapped while a repair was underway and we forgot to tell them. They didn’t know what was going on but they detected the change. That’s because they operate in a highly calibrated monitoring environment every day, all day,for decades. They are acclimated and in a position to recognize minute changes. Now if you don’t have that environment or years in place, probably will go unnoticed. Will it sabotage a mix? Maybe, most likely not. Level of anxiety should be low. But… It’s not right on its face. And it’s not hard to put equal lengths and quality of cable to your two speakers. Easy. Remove seemingly irrelevant errors wherever you spot them. Dot all the i’s and cross those t’s. Good engineering is mostly about removing small errors tjat are cheap or free. More about avoiding slowly boiling the frog, rather than being super creative /thinking outside the box. On the other hand, the speed of light is wicked fast. But if you drive your car at the speed of light, will your headlamps still work? - - Steven Wright ;-) <edit> Speed of signals through wire is less than sol. And speed will vary depending on freq and impedances. Electronics 101. Non3 the less I agree that it could be called “wicked fast” But is that the single, salient property at work here? If you think so I’ll leave you in peace
|
|
|
Post by Shadowk on Aug 15, 2024 15:45:08 GMT -6
Next up: I can hear the breath of a butterfly half way around the world but should I place an isolation box around my house to stop UV rays interfering with the sound of my aes connection?
The answer is still nope.. 😂
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 15, 2024 16:11:10 GMT -6
I'm going to put some green marker on my CDs. That oughta help.
|
|
|
Post by Pueblo Audio on Aug 15, 2024 16:28:53 GMT -6
The awesome power of ridicule has reformed me.
I shall repent my heresy;
Use a coat hanger on the left and a light bulb filament on the right.
No diff.
Perfect.
Only the song matters.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2024 17:04:12 GMT -6
On the other hand, the speed of light is wicked fast. But if you drive your car at the speed of light, will your headlamps still work? - - Steven Wright ;-) <edit> Speed of signals through wire is less than sol. And speed will vary depending on freq and impedances. Electronics 101. Non3 the less I agree that it could be called “wicked fast” But is that the single, salient property at work here? If you think so I’ll leave you in peace Heresy no, but this where we get into the weeds of actual differences & perceived differences, plus all the other variables; How closely are the monitors matched? How symmetrical is the room? How closely matched channel to channel in the monitor chain. As long as we are not talking a 100 ft difference I doubt any of us would notice, yet the cables in my monitor chain are all within .5in of each other.
|
|
|
Post by bluesholyman on Aug 15, 2024 17:09:29 GMT -6
Brace yourselves for some “heressy ” :-) Let me rephrase the OP’s questions two ways. 1. “will I hear a difference if…” This we cannot answer because we don’t know your level of attention to detail nor critical listing acumen. You judge your perception personally. 2. “Will a material difference in the monitoring path create a detectable difference in perceived sound?” In my decades at a mastering studio I can report YES. I have had engineers come into the shop complaining something’s wrong. Unknown to them there had been a seemingly irrelevant capacitor or cable temporarily swapped while a repair was underway and we forgot to tell them. They didn’t know what was going on but they detected the change. That’s because they operate in a highly calibrated monitoring environment every day, all day,for decades. They are acclimated and in a position to recognize minute changes. Now if you don’t have that environment or years in place, probably will go unnoticed. Will it sabotage a mix? Most likely not. Level of anxiety should be low. But… It’s not right on its face. And it’s not hard to put equal lengths and quality of cable to your two speakers. Easy. Remove seemingly irrelevant errors wherever you spot them. Dot all the i’s and cross those t’s. Good engineering is mostly about removing small errors tjat are cheap or free. More about avoiding slowly boiling the frog, rather than being super creative /thinking outside the box. I readily subscribe to heresy... Brace yourselves for some “heressy ” :-) Let me rephrase the OP’s questions two ways. 1. “will I hear a difference if…” This we cannot answer because we don’t know your level of attention to detail nor critical listing acumen. You judge your perception personally. 2. “Will a material difference in the monitoring path create a detectable difference in perceived sound?” In my decades at a mastering studio I can report YES. I have had engineers come into the shop complaining something’s wrong. Unknown to them there had been a seemingly irrelevant capacitor or cable temporarily swapped while a repair was underway and we forgot to tell them. They didn’t know what was going on but they detected the change. That’s because they operate in a highly calibrated monitoring environment every day, all day,for decades. They are acclimated and in a position to recognize minute changes. Now if you don’t have that environment or years in place, probably will go unnoticed. Will it sabotage a mix? Maybe, most likely not. Level of anxiety should be low. But… It’s not right on its face. And it’s not hard to put equal lengths and quality of cable to your two speakers. Easy. Remove seemingly irrelevant errors wherever you spot them. Dot all the i’s and cross those t’s. Good engineering is mostly about removing small errors tjat are cheap or free. More about avoiding slowly boiling the frog, rather than being super creative /thinking outside the box. On the other hand, the speed of light is wicked fast. I also subscribe to truth.... The awesome power of ridicule has reformed me. I shall repent my heresy; Use a coat hanger on the left and a light bulb filament on the right. No diff. Perfect. Only the song matters. Heretics are more fun....heresy wins.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Aug 15, 2024 17:28:32 GMT -6
If you add one drop of water to the ocean (excluding all other mitigating factors) the global sea level will indeed rise.
The question is can you detect it?
There will always be someone out there who claims they can but for most of us mere mortals… 🤨
|
|
|
Post by Shadowk on Aug 15, 2024 17:47:27 GMT -6
If you add one drop of water to the ocean (excluding all other mitigating factors) the global sea level will indeed rise. The question is can you detect it? There will always be someone out there who claims they can but for most of us mere mortals… 🤨 Umm if I actually have to be serious for once, a copper cable has a latency of like 5 microseconds per 100m. You’re not going to use 100m from an interface to some speakers, even if you did it would be completely imperceptible. I’m all up for fringe debates but this is like saying my mate smashed down a reinforced concrete building with a sponge hammer. It’s a good anecdote but that whole pesky science and math comes into play at some point. Some things can’t really be rebuked because without said knowledge you wouldn’t be able to y’know build stuff. This isn’t the whole I created 40 dimensions to solve a mathematical hypothesis sorta thing. Now the type of lightbulb I use whilst mixing makes all the difference, mixes sound flatter when I use fluorescent. 🙃
|
|
|
Post by ironinthepath on Aug 15, 2024 18:29:12 GMT -6
Psychology, I like to symmetrically match all cables in any of my stereo signal paths, I know it’s not needed AT ALL (barring some cable having a legit issue)…. But my brain is just happier with the symmetry knowing it’s there. So I bite the bullet and typically buy cables in pairs. Added cost to address a mental health issue, I guess, but I rest easier that way :-)
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Aug 15, 2024 18:32:26 GMT -6
If you add one drop of water to the ocean (excluding all other mitigating factors) the global sea level will indeed rise. The question is can you detect it? There will always be someone out there who claims they can but for most of us mere mortals… 🤨 Umm if I actually have to be serious for once, a copper cable has a latency of like 5 microseconds per 100m. You’re not going to use 100m from an interface to some speakers, even if you did it would be completely imperceptible. I’m all up for fringe debates but this is like saying my mate smashed down a reinforced concrete building with a sponge hammer. It’s a good anecdote but that whole pesky science and math comes into play at some point. Some things can’t really be rebuked because without said knowledge you wouldn’t be able to y’know build stuff. This isn’t the whole I created 40 dimensions to solve a mathematical hypothesis sorta thing. Okay I was being somewhat hyperbolic in my analogy. Electrical parameters of conductors with relation to the transmission of audio signals are relatively easy to measure and quantify. For two speaker cables to sound different enough for most people to notice their measured electrical parameters would be substantially different and obvious when testing them. Typically most obvious differences occur as the limits of the electrical parameters of the conductor is reached such as current limiting/voltage drop or poor amplifier dampening due to severely undersized conductors or excessive differences in conductor length. As long as you don’t exceed the limits of the conductor to the point where its characteristics become measurably non-linear with respect to input versus output (or in comparison to the other cable) then the argument about sonic differences is moot. It makes sense of course to try and ensure that both channels use the same kind of cabling etc simply as sensible practice. Some claim they can hear sonic differences in exorbitantly expensive IEC mains cables connected to audio components where no electrical testing procedures could show any differences between the expensive cable versus an electrically ‘competent’ standard cable. Of course if you are paying thousands of dollars for a few feet of ‘magic’ mains cable it simply has to sound better doesn’t it? 🤔 So differences do matter… when they matter.
|
|
|
Post by james7800 on Aug 15, 2024 18:58:54 GMT -6
The signal in the cable will be something a little less than the speed of light. Even if you assume it travels 1/100th the speed of light, the delay in the signal of 4ft of cable would equate to 0.005 inches in the physical alignment of the speakers.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Aug 15, 2024 20:22:13 GMT -6
RGO: Where we politely and respectfully argue the horns off a goat.
And my knowledge grows daily because of it.
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 15, 2024 20:46:49 GMT -6
I mean I'm all for pedantry and shit, but then the idea that there's even such a thing as 'matching cable lengths' (let alone, matched frequency response for drivers, or a perfectly symmetrical room, or whatever) kinda goes out the window and renders the whole debate moot.
And let's not pretend like we're good enough recordists or mixers to claim that these sorts of nuances would have any real-world impact on our work when we're still trying to sort out tenths of a db of snare eq (on a coarse analog pot, no less). Put bluntly, we're gonna fuck up way bigger things on the average tracking session than a fraction of a microsecond's worth of comb filtering...
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2024 21:10:32 GMT -6
I mean I'm all for pedantry and shit, but then the idea that there's even such a thing as 'matching cable lengths' (let alone, matched frequency response for drivers, or a perfectly symmetrical room, or whatever) kinda goes out the window and renders the whole debate moot. And let's not pretend like we're good enough recordists or mixers to claim that these sorts of nuances would have any real-world impact on our work when we're still trying to sort out tenths of a db of snare eq (on a coarse analog pot, no less). Put bluntly, we're gonna fuck up way bigger things on the average tracking session than a fraction of a microsecond's worth of comb filtering... Hey Benny The problem is this, every component has a tolerance, 99% of the time we don’t know what that tolerance is! The argument that cable length will make a statistical difference is absolutely right, with one absolutely absurb assumption, everything else is equal! Not in the real world. Of course we are also making one othe big assumption, the properties of both cables is equal. You willing to bet 2 pre made cables are from the same lot of raw wire? I would love to say yeah I can tell, but I know of at least one Emmy award wing AE who once told me that in the middle of the single chain of an awards ceremony he won his Emmy for left was some how miss patched through the snake about 1000 feet and back to the truck, it was only noticed as everything was reset and packed up. Go figure. The were just boosting the gain a tiny bit. Some times the real world is actually your friend.
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 15, 2024 21:17:12 GMT -6
I mean I'm all for pedantry and shit, but then the idea that there's even such a thing as 'matching cable lengths' (let alone, matched frequency response for drivers, or a perfectly symmetrical room, or whatever) kinda goes out the window and renders the whole debate moot. And let's not pretend like we're good enough recordists or mixers to claim that these sorts of nuances would have any real-world impact on our work when we're still trying to sort out tenths of a db of snare eq (on a coarse analog pot, no less). Put bluntly, we're gonna fuck up way bigger things on the average tracking session than a fraction of a microsecond's worth of comb filtering... Hey Benny The problem is this, every component has a tolerance, 99% of the time we don’t know what that tolerance is! The argument that cable length will make a statistical difference is absolutely right, with one absolutely absurb assumption, everything else is equal! Not in the real world. Of course we are also making one othe big assumption, the properties of both cables is equal. You willing to bet 2 pre made cables are from the same lot of raw wire? I would love to say yeah I can tell, but I know of at least one Emmy award wing AE who once told me that in the middle of the single chain of an awards ceremony he won his Emmy for left was some how miss patched through the snake about 1000 feet and back to the truck, it was only noticed as everything was reset and packed up. Go figure. The were just boosting the gain a tiny bit. Some times the real world is actually your friend. Ha, yes! Great anecdote. Thinking about all the times (yes, plural...many, many timeS) I've sat there painstakingly tweaking an EQ to find the PERFECT setting between a couple options a half db away from each other, certain I'm hearing the difference, only to realize the damn thing was in bypass the whole time. Oops. Pretty sure whatever difference comes from an extra four feet of cable is gonna be lost on a dolt like me 🤣
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2024 21:22:18 GMT -6
Hey Benny The problem is this, every component has a tolerance, 99% of the time we don’t know what that tolerance is! The argument that cable length will make a statistical difference is absolutely right, with one absolutely absurb assumption, everything else is equal! Not in the real world. Of course we are also making one othe big assumption, the properties of both cables is equal. You willing to bet 2 pre made cables are from the same lot of raw wire? I would love to say yeah I can tell, but I know of at least one Emmy award wing AE who once told me that in the middle of the single chain of an awards ceremony he won his Emmy for left was some how miss patched through the snake about 1000 feet and back to the truck, it was only noticed as everything was reset and packed up. Go figure. The were just boosting the gain a tiny bit. Some times the real world is actually your friend. Ha, yes! Great anecdote. Thinking about all the times (yes, plural...many, many timeS) I've sat there painstakingly tweaking an EQ to find the PERFECT setting between a couple options a half db away from each other, certain I'm hearing the difference, only to realize the damn thing was in bypass the whole time. Oops. Pretty sure whatever difference comes from an extra four feet of cable is gonna be lost on a dolt like me 🤣 Rule # 21 to teach your students, it’s easy to obsess about the smallest technical details, but if you can’t hear the difference because your only thinking in one dimension your wasting everyone’s time. It’s also rule number 21 in deference to rule #1 in audio & life: never knock what works😁
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on Aug 15, 2024 22:53:30 GMT -6
going to the store to stock up on tin foil for my hat...
|
|
|
Post by keymod on Aug 16, 2024 4:47:30 GMT -6
And then I have to wonder how many people actually have perfectly matched hearing between their two ears?
|
|