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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 14, 2024 22:59:39 GMT -6
OK - let me just say this. This is not my first day recording. I understand that you can do more harm with a plugin than without one. So you can all assume that I know what I'm doing. OK. Now...resonances. Are they room dependent or both room and equipment? I think mics 'hear' the resonances differently than our ears do. So when we hear the playback all kinds of stuff that our brains automatically filter is there in Technicolor detail. Plus mics and the things they are plugged into have THEIR sound as well. Thanks, man. There are definitely some spikey resonances. And it seems to be more when I sing. Maybe I sing with spiky resonances. lol. I've figured out I sing really loud I think...so I'm trying different headphone volumes than I'm used to. Turning it up a little more so I don't push as hard. I also think this is totally a thing. Our bodies are cavities. There is, of course, the mouth, but head shape, chest shape, etc that contribute to the noise that comes out of our faces. Which we don't ever actually hear, because we hear a big resonant heads as part of our voice that others (and microphones) do not. For some singers singing softly sounds beautiful but singing loudly does NOT (Ms Morrisette comes to mind). Other's the opposite. Some singers a lucky enough to be about to sings really dynamically without one part sounding bad. And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other... Well said, Tony |
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Post by smashlord on Aug 14, 2024 23:31:10 GMT -6
My understanding is that the headbasket design absolutely contributes to resonances or the lack thereof in a mic. Maybe some of the mic builders here can chime in. Cheers, Geoff Very true, though not much headbasket resonance on John’s 017 017s have a nasty 3.6Khz resonance, though. Both mine have it... one worse than the other. Always have to notch that area on a vocal. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 15, 2024 5:12:17 GMT -6
Is there anything you can do? Or is it just the way the room is gonna be? Deres has made it a little easier to spot really bad notchable resonances. Lately - for better or worse - I've been starting vocal tracks and just adding several instances of Deres and pulling out the worst offending spikes. Actually nice, because you can notch out a freq, but you don't have to notch it at 100%...I've noticed sometimes, taking those frequencies totally out can leave things kinda dull. But using Deres like this has made a very positive difference for my mixing. But - is there any way to knock these out at the source? Or are you just a hostage to the room? Considering how many wonderful vocals have been recorded without any “instances” of anything, let’s not (at first) try to solve this artificially with plug ins. Is it every vocalist? If so then if you go in the tracking room do you hear the blemishes acoustically in the room? If not then it might be the choice of mic/placement or possibly other underperforming , non-real gear in the signal path. But If you do hear it in the room, then attack those acoustics. Much better return on investment. I've got a nice vocal booth zone I built with panels from GAK - it creates a really fantastic recording space devoid of any "spikes/resonances " - it wasn't very expensive to build either. Vocals track and mix without the need for any "modern" fix it in the mix tools. |
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Post by nick8801 on Aug 15, 2024 5:35:54 GMT -6
This is why I constantly go back to the sm7 for recording vocals.
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Post by bossanova on Aug 15, 2024 6:31:45 GMT -6
Considering how many wonderful vocals have been recorded without any “instances” of anything, let’s not (at first) try to solve this artificially with plug ins. Is it every vocalist? If so then if you go in the tracking room do you hear the blemishes acoustically in the room? If not then it might be the choice of mic/placement or possibly other underperforming , non-real gear in the signal path. But If you do hear it in the room, then attack those acoustics. Much better return on investment. I've got a nice vocal booth zone I built with panels from GAK - it creates a really fantastic recording space devoid of any "spikes/resonances " - it wasn't very expensive to build either. Vocals track and mix without the need for any "modern" fix it in the mix tools. Details/which panels/how many/configuration? 😇 |
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Post by svart on Aug 15, 2024 6:45:27 GMT -6
Vocals always cut in the middle of the room.
I usually Soothe them from 1k-7K and if Soothe is doing more than 3dB or so on any particular frequency I'll do a notch at that frequency with an EQ. There's usually some harmonic in the 1K-5K range that needs a big cut on just about every vocalist.
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Post by chessparov on Aug 15, 2024 9:15:40 GMT -6
[quote author=" drumsound" And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other...[/quote] Sure. Like that Blondie song.  |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 15, 2024 9:38:56 GMT -6
I think mics 'hear' the resonances differently than our ears do. So when we hear the playback all kinds of stuff that our brains automatically filter is there in Technicolor detail. Plus mics and the things they are plugged into have THEIR sound as well. I also think this is totally a thing. Our bodies are cavities. There is, of course, the mouth, but head shape, chest shape, etc that contribute to the noise that comes out of our faces. Which we don't ever actually hear, because we hear a big resonant heads as part of our voice that others (and microphones) do not. For some singers singing softly sounds beautiful but singing loudly does NOT (Ms Morrisette comes to mind). Other's the opposite. Some singers a lucky enough to be about to sings really dynamically without one part sounding bad. And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other... Well said, Tony Thank you, Sir [quote author=" drumsound " And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other... I see what you did there. Sure. Like that Blondie song. [/quote] |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 15, 2024 10:16:56 GMT -6
Thanks! True story. Back in the 80's my "first love's" Aunt was the "Original Blondie"! One day Aunt Penny (Singleton) said she was heading to a photo shoot on Hollywood Boulevard with Deborah Harry! The 2 Blondies together. Very cute. Chris P.S. Penny was still attractive for her age. But... I had no idea until years later, how stunning she was in her film heyday! |
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Post by Shadowk on Aug 15, 2024 12:58:51 GMT -6
OK - let me just say this. This is not my first day recording. I understand that you can do more harm with a plugin than without one. So you can all assume that I know what I'm doing. OK. Now...resonances. Are they room dependent or both room and equipment? IME both, at one point I had no choice but to track in a small room. It was well treated but without much in the way of diffusion (didn't have the $$$'s for top end treatment at the time), most recordings came out resonant yet dull at the same time. Although I did find ways around it (to an extent), as everyone else here has mentioned some sort of correction plugin like Soothe or notching bits out with EQ but it wasn't always a sure fire fix for me.
I used to put a piece of treatment right in front and behind me then sit / sing, use a 2A plug or HW to smooth bits out, I used de-essers (they are surprisingly good at taking out spikey frequencies), used a bit of chorus and mainly avoided condensers. I'm not saying that dynamic's are an auto fix, sometimes I've found them to be as bad or worse and some come across as horribly spikey (probably made for tape or they just suck) but they aren't as sensitive, can be used an inch off the lips and the right one can work with you. So this is one of those situations where an SM58 or 7B just can't be beaten, obviously given a gorgeous room I'd use just about anything else but a good take with either of these can shine even in constrained situations given good engineering and you don't need to worry about that.
If I was ever doing field location work (or at a mates house or something) I'd always pack a 58 / 57 / 7B..
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 16, 2024 9:09:24 GMT -6
This thread got me obsessing a bit... more lol, i've damped a ton of shit in my setup, including rack mount gear cases, the chassis of my console, I already use light stand sandbags on everything because they secure the stands, mics and absorb vibration, i've damped a lot of my mic housings to good effect etc, and this AM i started flicking shock mounts🤦🏻♂️, with the mic in them they reso's less but still there, now i'm deluding to spraying plastidip to damp them because (in my mind at least), small resonances in close proximity to capsules are picked up, then add compression and blah, blah, blah I should add a poll to this post... insane?___ most insane?___ Untitled.mov (1.89 MB) |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 16, 2024 11:17:33 GMT -6
This thread got me obsessing a bit... more lol, i've damped a ton of shit in my setup, including rack mount gear cases, the chassis of my console, I already use light stand sandbags on everything because they secure the stands, mics and absorb vibration, i've damped a lot of my mic housings to good effect etc, and this AM i started flicking shock mounts🤦🏻♂️, with the mic in them they reso's less but still there, now i'm deluding to spraying plastidip to damp them because (in my mind at least), small resonances in close proximity to capsules are picked up, then add compression and blah, blah, blah I should add a poll to this post... insane?___ most insane?___ View AttachmentYou might be getting a little obsessive. You movie is a poor test, because the chord dampens at 8 points on a mount like that. Then the weight of the mic will probably have an effect, too. |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 16, 2024 11:43:07 GMT -6
OK - let me just say this. This is not my first day recording. I understand that you can do more harm with a plugin than without one. So you can all assume that I know what I'm doing. OK. Now...resonances. Are they room dependent or both room and equipment? I think mics 'hear' the resonances differently than our ears do. So when we hear the playback all kinds of stuff that our brains automatically filter is there in Technicolor detail. Plus mics and the things they are plugged into have THEIR sound as well. Thanks, man. There are definitely some spikey resonances. And it seems to be more when I sing. Maybe I sing with spiky resonances. lol. I've figured out I sing really loud I think...so I'm trying different headphone volumes than I'm used to. Turning it up a little more so I don't push as hard. I also think this is totally a thing. Our bodies are cavities. There is, of course, the mouth, but head shape, chest shape, etc that contribute to the noise that comes out of our faces. Which we don't ever actually hear, because we hear a big resonant heads as part of our voice that others (and microphones) do not. For some singers singing softly sounds beautiful but singing loudly does NOT (Ms Morrisette comes to mind). Other's the opposite. Some singers a lucky enough to be about to sings really dynamically without one part sounding bad. And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other... I think you're spot on - every voice is so unique and resonates in it's own unique way. Shouting, pushing the chest voice creates too much fundamental tone and little harmonic footprint. Singing softly changes the balance of harmonics to fundamental - lot's more harmonics come through when your singing softly - at least that's how I think about it in my head. (When people shout they sound very similar) Then there's driving the voice in a blues sense, like a guitarist driving a tube amp - this also produces rich harmonics. This is my favourite part of my voice, I love singing Stings "Shadows in the Rain" .... that's blues drive - it sounds so rich and exciting. It has a lot of vocal output, but if you can master the technique of lowering the air pressure and getting into the middle voice - I think it sounds great. It's addictive and can end up being a signwriting crutch and just relying on that tone instead of searching for great melodies (so I keep that in mind) |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 16, 2024 13:30:28 GMT -6
I think mics 'hear' the resonances differently than our ears do. So when we hear the playback all kinds of stuff that our brains automatically filter is there in Technicolor detail. Plus mics and the things they are plugged into have THEIR sound as well. I also think this is totally a thing. Our bodies are cavities. There is, of course, the mouth, but head shape, chest shape, etc that contribute to the noise that comes out of our faces. Which we don't ever actually hear, because we hear a big resonant heads as part of our voice that others (and microphones) do not. For some singers singing softly sounds beautiful but singing loudly does NOT (Ms Morrisette comes to mind). Other's the opposite. Some singers a lucky enough to be about to sings really dynamically without one part sounding bad. And, of course, some SONGS need to be sung one way or the other... I think you're spot on - every voice is so unique and resonates in it's own unique way. Shouting, pushing the chest voice creates too much fundamental tone and little harmonic footprint. Singing softly changes the balance of harmonics to fundamental - lot's more harmonics come through when your singing softly - at least that's how I think about it in my head. (When people shout they sound very similar) Then there's driving the voice in a blues sense, like a guitarist driving a tube amp - this also produces rich harmonics. This is my favourite part of my voice, I love singing Stings "Shadows in the Rain" .... that's blues drive - it sounds so rich and exciting. It has a lot of vocal output, but if you can master the technique of lowering the air pressure and getting into the middle voice - I think it sounds great. It's addictive and can end up being a signwriting crutch and just relying on that tone instead of searching for great melodies (so I keep that in mind) With great power comes great responsibility. Are you referring to the Dream of the Blue Turtles version of Shadows? That one kicked my ass as a teenage drummer. So much fun to play! |
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 16, 2024 15:38:04 GMT -6
I think you're spot on - every voice is so unique and resonates in it's own unique way. Shouting, pushing the chest voice creates too much fundamental tone and little harmonic footprint. Singing softly changes the balance of harmonics to fundamental - lot's more harmonics come through when your singing softly - at least that's how I think about it in my head. (When people shout they sound very similar) Then there's driving the voice in a blues sense, like a guitarist driving a tube amp - this also produces rich harmonics. This is my favourite part of my voice, I love singing Stings "Shadows in the Rain" .... that's blues drive - it sounds so rich and exciting. It has a lot of vocal output, but if you can master the technique of lowering the air pressure and getting into the middle voice - I think it sounds great. It's addictive and can end up being a signwriting crutch and just relying on that tone instead of searching for great melodies (so I keep that in mind) With great power comes great responsibility. Are you referring to the Dream of the Blue Turtles version of Shadows? That one kicked my ass as a teenage drummer. So much fun to play! Yes, the DOTBT version .... I love singing like that, it's very much my style too - I can do a decent rendition. Though at 60 years old my range has dropped a little :-) I'm a drummer too, so I love the Omar Hakim drum part - I met him recently at one of his jazz gigs - got a selfie and a signed album. I was somewhat star struck |
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 16, 2024 16:55:06 GMT -6
This thread got me obsessing a bit... more lol, i've damped a ton of shit in my setup, including rack mount gear cases, the chassis of my console, I already use light stand sandbags on everything because they secure the stands, mics and absorb vibration, i've damped a lot of my mic housings to good effect etc, and this AM i started flicking shock mounts🤦🏻♂️, with the mic in them they reso's less but still there, now i'm deluding to spraying plastidip to damp them because (in my mind at least), small resonances in close proximity to capsules are picked up, then add compression and blah, blah, blah I should add a poll to this post... insane?___ most insane?___ View AttachmentYou might be getting a little obsessive. You movie is a poor test, because the chord dampens at 8 points on a mount like that. Then the weight of the mic will probably have an effect, too. musta missed this? |
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Post by drumsound on Aug 16, 2024 23:02:02 GMT -6
With great power comes great responsibility. Are you referring to the Dream of the Blue Turtles version of Shadows? That one kicked my ass as a teenage drummer. So much fun to play! Yes, the DOTBT version .... I love singing like that, it's very much my style too - I can do a decent rendition. Though at 60 years old my range has dropped a little :-) I'm a drummer too, so I love the Omar Hakim drum part - I met him recently at one of his jazz gigs - got a selfie and a signed album. I was somewhat star struck That's fantastic. I keep a copy of Bring on The Night at the studio (I only have Dream on LP). I just love the dance like fluidity of Omar Hakim's playing. You might be getting a little obsessive. You movie is a poor test, because the chord dampens at 8 points on a mount like that. Then the weight of the mic will probably have an effect, too. musta missed this? I think I did. I read it and watched the movie and must have, in my head, thought it read 'without' |
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