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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 0:42:02 GMT -6
I swear I’m only a little high…but was just thinking. With the onset of computers and Pro Tools, we started using daws - which made things dramatically easier to edit. Does that visual aspect of being able to like - see the waveforms make us listen less intently?
I do think that I hear and focus differently when I close my eyes or turn off the computer monitor.** As an example - you see where breaths are with the daw. Does that influence you to edit them? Relative volume levels (is the kick too loud, vocal loud enough et al) - are we influenced visually?
It just made me wonder if I would be faaaaar less of a tweaker if I were tracking and was JUST listening.
**what’s the Mac shortcut to turn the screen black? It used to be something like opt/ctrl power button…but no longer works.
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 10, 2024 1:25:24 GMT -6
I am sure there are people who suffer from this visual obstacle, as I have heard people complain on this before, where they feel they mix better not looking at the screen. But I would dare to say that for those who really know their business it probably doesn't have a bad influence. Vice versa, you can in addition to listening have a precision and problem solving aspect to it that visuals provide. My firmly opinion is that there are better mixes made today with the tools available than there was before. (though there are plenty of bad ones, probably more, but then again, nowadays everyones a mixer so that kind of tends to tip the average for worse).
I think it’s a part of being professional knowing your tools and what to reach for. That goes for the visuals too, when to seek solution beyond your ears.
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Post by ragan on Aug 10, 2024 1:27:25 GMT -6
I swear I’m only a little high…but was just thinking. With the onset of computers and Pro Tools, we started using daws - which made things dramatically easier to edit. Does that visual aspect of being able to like - see the waveforms make us listen less intently? I do think that I hear and focus differently when I close my eyes or turn off the computer monitor.** As an example - you see where breaths are with the daw. Does that influence you to edit them? Relative volume levels (is the kick too loud, vocal loud enough et al) - are we influenced visually? It just made me wonder if I would be faaaaar less of a tweaker if I were tracking and was JUST listening. **what’s the Mac shortcut to turn the screen black? It used to be something like opt/ctrl power button…but no longer works. Ctrl + Shift + Eject! I use that a lot. I do think I listen differently when I can’t see stuff. |
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Post by ninworks on Aug 10, 2024 2:41:21 GMT -6
My disclaimer is that I almost always record just me these days so this probably won't apply to everyone.
Coming up through the ranks in the mid 70's and through the 80's and 90's with analog tape, which has practically zero visibility, I can honestly say that I don't believe the visuals affect my listening ability, but they are a huge help. I probably don't edit as much as I should but still do my fair share. Editing was such a PITA with tape that I always strive to get the takes recorded so they are good enough to minimize having to do it. As far as removing breaths on vocal tracks and such, I sometimes do it but usually don't unless they are really distracting. I am a firm believer that the breathing is almost as much of the performance as the actual singing and in many cases can actually add to it's emotive nature. A very good and experienced singer knows how to do it unobtrusively.
The same goes for having dead silence between phrases on guitar tracks. A good player usually doesn't require that. I still do it somewhat often but only when deemed necessary. I'm not saying I'm a stellar guitarist but I have been playing since the mid 60's and been recording since the mid 70's and I think I'm pretty good even though I'm retired and don't gig anymore so I'm a little rusty. There's always a volume pedal on the floor in front of me when tracking to mitigate most of the noise whenever there's no signal going through the amp so all there is to deal with is amp hiss. There are tools for that.
I love digital and am never going back to using tape. Playlists and automation make tracking and comping tracks SOOOOO much easier and the sound quality has gotten so very good why would anyone want to mess with tape?!
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 10, 2024 3:59:04 GMT -6
I swear I’m only a little high…but was just thinking. With the onset of computers and Pro Tools, we started using daws - which made things dramatically easier to edit. Does that visual aspect of being able to like - see the waveforms make us listen less intently? I do think that I hear and focus differently when I close my eyes or turn off the computer monitor.** As an example - you see where breaths are with the daw. Does that influence you to edit them? Relative volume levels (is the kick too loud, vocal loud enough et al) - are we influenced visually? It just made me wonder if I would be faaaaar less of a tweaker if I were tracking and was JUST listening. **what’s the Mac shortcut to turn the screen black? It used to be something like opt/ctrl power button…but no longer works. John, my number one used shortcut key command is .... My monitors SCREEN BLANK! I constantly hit it and black out my screen - I've worked this way for over 25 years. The second I don't need a visual reference to operate or edit my system I instantly and instantly hit my Screen Blank shortcut. The next effect being my screen is off 50% of the time I'm making music and it makes a huge difference to me, I hate having a light source in my eyes, music is a listening art form and so I hate anything visual as I work and this method minimises the time I have to use my screen. My controllers help too. How people work with 50" TV size screens or multiple monitors I just know - I would hate it - I hate screens generally. My monitor is 24" HD the bare minimum to get the hob done and it's blank 50% of the time! |
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 10, 2024 6:30:53 GMT -6
I swear I’m only a little high…but was just thinking. With the onset of computers and Pro Tools, we started using daws - which made things dramatically easier to edit. Does that visual aspect of being able to like - see the waveforms make us listen less intently? I do think that I hear and focus differently when I close my eyes or turn off the computer monitor.** As an example - you see where breaths are with the daw. Does that influence you to edit them? Relative volume levels (is the kick too loud, vocal loud enough et al) - are we influenced visually? It just made me wonder if I would be faaaaar less of a tweaker if I were tracking and was JUST listening. **what’s the Mac shortcut to turn the screen black? It used to be something like opt/ctrl power button…but no longer works. John, my number one used shortcut key command is .... My monitors SCREEN BLANK! I constantly hit it and black out my screen - I've worked this way for over 25 years. The second I don't need a visual reference to operate or edit my system I instantly and instantly hit my Screen Blank shortcut. The next effect being my screen is off 50% of the time I'm making music and it makes a huge difference to me, I hate having a light source in my eyes, music is a listening art form and so I hate anything visual as I work and this method minimises the time I have to use my screen. My controllers help too. How people work with 50" TV size screens or multiple monitors I just know - I would hate it - I hate screens generally. My monitor is 24" HD the bare minimum to get the hob done and it's blank 50% of the time! Yeah I also dropped years ago the multiple display setup. Basically when I went from mac pro to working solely on MacBook pro. Now I track and mix with the 14” laptop screen alone. Cleaned up my work desk and I’ve used the space the displays freed for my la2a and better monitor placement. Also a plus is that my mixing setup looks the same whether im in the studio or on an airplane, regarding display and controls. |
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Post by nick8801 on Aug 10, 2024 7:00:31 GMT -6
Yes. Shutting that monitor off is huge.
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Post by andersmv on Aug 10, 2024 7:03:49 GMT -6
Sight affects SO many decisions in life, this conversation could be moved beyond just working with audio in a DAW. It’s a really strong bias, there’s just no getting away from it. It’s one of the reasons I’ve become so anal the last few years about gain staging every time I add something during mixing. You need those easy and accurate reality checks when you close your eyes and bring things in an out. Especially with compression, it’s essential that you make sure your levels are the same before and after you apply it. I find myself constantly adding something colorful that I feel good about after adding or patching it in, only to bypass it and hardly notice a difference 15 minutes later when I close my eyes and take it out.
Your eyes are your worst enemy, especially with all the pretty looking new software…We’re all susceptible to it, it’s just how our brains work…
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Post by doubledog on Aug 10, 2024 8:15:12 GMT -6
The short answer is yes. Just seeing it onscreen doesn't make me want to edit something, but I do sometimes like an EQ that shows a visual curve vs just twisting knobs (as long as the visual semi-accurately represents the actual frequency curve in use). I have noticed several clients 'watching" the screen while doing overdubs - as long as that is just to see where they are in the songs that might be ok, but sometimes I think they don't play as well since they are watching instead of listening 100% (and need to be listening/playing 100%).
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Post by andersmv on Aug 10, 2024 8:27:35 GMT -6
I swear I’m only a little high…but was just thinking. With the onset of computers and Pro Tools, we started using daws - which made things dramatically easier to edit. Does that visual aspect of being able to like - see the waveforms make us listen less intently? I do think that I hear and focus differently when I close my eyes or turn off the computer monitor.** As an example - you see where breaths are with the daw. Does that influence you to edit them? Relative volume levels (is the kick too loud, vocal loud enough et al) - are we influenced visually? It just made me wonder if I would be faaaaar less of a tweaker if I were tracking and was JUST listening. **what’s the Mac shortcut to turn the screen black? It used to be something like opt/ctrl power button…but no longer works. Ctrl + Shift + Eject! I use that a lot. I do think I listen differently when I can’t see stuff. I can't believe I did't know about this one after all of these years...  You learn something new every day! |
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Post by EmRR on Aug 10, 2024 8:53:33 GMT -6
All you have to do is switch from editing music sound for picture to just the sound, you’ll make different decisions.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 10, 2024 9:09:40 GMT -6
Not so much for me, but when clients are in the room I turn the screen so they can’t see it. Nothing worse than somebody looking at the screen and then having that change their opinion on timing etc.
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Post by drbill on Aug 10, 2024 9:20:12 GMT -6
Dual monitors. Always on. If working to picture, I prefer 3 monitors. And yes, always on. If I don't want to see them I can always close my eyes.  |
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Post by Ward on Aug 10, 2024 10:06:16 GMT -6
I close my eyes and turn out the lights all the time, and just listen. We have always been attracted to eye candy. Could have been watching compression LEDs or VU meters etc but closing out other stimuli opens up the hearing!
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Post by robo on Aug 10, 2024 10:19:55 GMT -6
I work in mixer view 90% of the time for this reason, tracking or mixing. You hit playback and everyone is watching the screen, anticipating the next pink waveform or whatever. Mixer view allows you to tweak what catches your ear with less distraction. Much more like the end listener’s perspective.
Blacking out the screen is great when you want to pretend you can’t adjust anything and force yourself to listen. I’ve got those keys marked so I can do it without Googling the combination.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Aug 10, 2024 10:28:41 GMT -6
I totally agree about periodic ‘no-screen’ listening.
However, when using Reaper I also use its built-in Delta functions for quick A/B plug-in comparisons, to hear exactly how plug-ins have changed the sound. If I can’t hear the difference in the context of the mix then that plug-in can be deleted for a shorter signal chain.
Martin
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 10, 2024 10:54:18 GMT -6
Sight affects SO many decisions in life, this conversation could be moved beyond just working with audio in a DAW. It’s a really strong bias, there’s just no getting away from it. It’s one of the reasons I’ve become so anal the last few years about gain staging every time I add something during mixing. You need those easy and accurate reality checks when you close your eyes and bring things in an out. Especially with compression, it’s essential that you make sure your levels are the same before and after you apply it. I find myself constantly adding something colorful that I feel good about after adding or patching it in, only to bypass it and hardly notice a difference 15 minutes later when I close my eyes and take it out. Your eyes are your worst enemy, especially with all the pretty looking new software…We’re all susceptible to it, it’s just how our brains work… Regarding compression. This is one of the big reasons I changed to Bob Katz calibrated monitoring and K metering (I mix to K14) If you add compression and raise the gain to compensate for the GR then the music obviously get's essentially louder, denser, less dynamic and with Bob's calibrated monitoring you can hear it happening right before your ears - without a fixed monitoring point the reference is moving and your ears just compensate instead of the added density and drop in dynamic range being clear and definitive. It was a big step forward for me. |
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Post by bluegrassdan on Aug 10, 2024 11:23:25 GMT -6
On some sessions I’ve produced, I have set up my Adam A7Xs on the producer’s desk. It is definitely different visualizing the stereo field with no screen or other objects between the speakers.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 11:40:46 GMT -6
I am sure there are people who suffer from this visual obstacle, as I have heard people complain on this before, where they feel they mix better not looking at the screen. But I would dare to say that for those who really know their business it probably doesn't have a bad influence. Vice versa, you can in addition to listening have a precision and problem solving aspect to it that visuals provide. My firmly opinion is that there are better mixes made today with the tools available than there was before. (though there are plenty of bad ones, probably more, but then again, nowadays everyones a mixer so that kind of tends to tip the average for worse). I think it’s a part of being professional knowing your tools and what to reach for. That goes for the visuals too, when to seek solution beyond your ears. Yeah - mixing is definitely more perfected. I guess I was more saying, if I couldn’t see things, I might be less likely to want to screw with them. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 11:43:55 GMT -6
Sight affects SO many decisions in life, this conversation could be moved beyond just working with audio in a DAW. It’s a really strong bias, there’s just no getting away from it. It’s one of the reasons I’ve become so anal the last few years about gain staging every time I add something during mixing. You need those easy and accurate reality checks when you close your eyes and bring things in an out. Especially with compression, it’s essential that you make sure your levels are the same before and after you apply it. I find myself constantly adding something colorful that I feel good about after adding or patching it in, only to bypass it and hardly notice a difference 15 minutes later when I close my eyes and take it out. Your eyes are your worst enemy, especially with all the pretty looking new software…We’re all susceptible to it, it’s just how our brains work… Yeah I need to start level matching and comparing. This is one of the things that lead to mixing something and then going back and listening to the board mix and it’s punchier or whatever. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 10, 2024 11:46:39 GMT -6
Johnkenn Ctrl + Shift + Eject! I use that a lot. I do think I listen differently when I can’t see stuff. I can't believe I did't know about this one after all of these years... You learn something new every day! I’ll double check when I’m upstairs, but that shortcut doesn’t work on my Mac Studio/Magic Keyboard (whatever it’s called) seems like it worked in Ventura, but now doesn’t. I don’t have an eject key, but it was shift/ctrl power. Doesn’t seem to work anymore. |
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Post by jaba on Aug 10, 2024 12:17:09 GMT -6
Yes. Shutting that monitor off is huge. Agree 100% Years ago I realized that the sound seemed to "change" the moment I shut off the monitor (no change with my eyes closed though). I also prefer this to just closing my eyes but to each their own. |
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Post by andersmv on Aug 10, 2024 12:52:08 GMT -6
I can't believe I did't know about this one after all of these years... You learn something new every day! I’ll double check when I’m upstairs, but that shortcut doesn’t work on my Mac Studio/Magic Keyboard (whatever it’s called) seems like it worked in Ventura, but now doesn’t. I don’t have an eject key, but it was shift/ctrl power. Doesn’t seem to work anymore. I’ve got a new Mac Studio, new OS but an important older wireless keyboard with the eject button. I tried it today and it worked. |
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Post by chessparov on Aug 10, 2024 13:10:49 GMT -6
I swore off using a cursor. It was too graphic.  |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2024 14:31:50 GMT -6
Let’s see do visuals affect our perception of sound? Ever heard why Turbo Sound Flashlights were blue?
They set up 2 rigs side by side one blue one black, when asked which sounded better a large majority said the Blue one. They were identical.
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You learn something new every day!
