|
Post by bossanova on Aug 10, 2024 13:45:36 GMT -6
Based on my experience with digital since I started from scratch 11 years ago, I definitely lean towards "mic/room" being the primary culprit more so than monitoring.
Even when I was getting comb filtering on monitoring before I started listening direct, I could still hear the mic and room problems on playback. But at the time I thought it was because I didn't have enough of that sweet vintage gear in the chain.
Now I can clearly hear where most (but not all) of the differences in the sound I get comes from making the best of bad spaces. On the bright side, I eventually ditched that horrible Monoprice/MXL mic I used in the late 2010s đ
Added: I can also vouch that my first "modern gen" interface (SSL-2 after using a Scarlet 1st gen for 7 years) was worlds better in terms of both having a direct analog monitoring path and hearing the digital capture sounding virtually identical during subsequent playback.
|
|
|
Post by bluesholyman on Aug 10, 2024 14:22:29 GMT -6
Ok, this applies only to the less experienced engineers out there who are also usually the ones trying to figure out how to get a piece of gear to deal with this "sterile" problem. I have a theory on this. I think that about 70% of the time what you're hearing is comb filtering which you are associating with "digital" though it would really be the same with hi-fi analog. You just don't know that because you've only tracked "digital". The other 30% of the time it's some sort of time alignment problem from poorly planned multi-miking. Where did I get this idea?
I say this because I learned that lesson myself just over the last three or four years as I really started to get a handle on phase coherency, time alignment, and (yes) room treatment. Once I learned what comb filtering sounded like in small doses, I realized it was what I would have previously called "digital". And, once I started doing true zero latency monitoring of my tracking (by running monitoring before conversion) I realized that my mics sounded completely different than I thought they did. But that experience got my ear tuned into what slight time alignment issues sound like. So for me, I'm really glad to have some of the gear I acquired when I was chasing a "more analog" sound, but I never got that sound until I just got better at mic placement and mixing. Concrete advice if you're chasing a "analog warmth"- Start by monitoring your signal direct. Talk into your microphone at close range. I betcha it suddenly sounds warmer and fuller. But that's just signal direct, no magic. That's not analog mojo, that's just a nice coherent signal. Now you know what it should sound like. - Now that you know what it sounds like when the signal is clean, you can start listening for what in your room is messing that up when you're at full volume. And if talking quietly and close into a direct monitored microphone doesn't sound clear and full, your room has serious issues and you're probably not even on this forum. I think a lot of you guys with "real" studios on here don't realize how much latency messes up the monitoring sound of the average home recordist. They don't even know what their gear sounds like because they don't hear the real signal until much later in the process by which time they've already tried to "fix it" when it was monitoring all along that made it sound wrong. This is why you always hear sound samples of people trying to fix something and it's like "huh? What's wrong with this?" They had a bias because it sounded bad when they tracked it, though it was captured fine. I've barely started reading this thread, and I just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts on this. I'm not saying it was me you were posting in response to, however, a recent post I did could easily qualify Thank you for taking the time. It's one of many things I love about this forum...and thanks to Johnkenn for starting the forum to provide such a place.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 15:19:59 GMT -6
Ok, this applies only to the less experienced engineers out there who are also usually the ones trying to figure out how to get a piece of gear to deal with this "sterile" problem. I have a theory on this. I think that about 70% of the time what you're hearing is comb filtering which you are associating with "digital" though it would really be the same with hi-fi analog. You just don't know that because you've only tracked "digital". The other 30% of the time it's some sort of time alignment problem from poorly planned multi-miking. Where did I get this idea?
I say this because I learned that lesson myself just over the last three or four years as I really started to get a handle on phase coherency, time alignment, and (yes) room treatment. Once I learned what comb filtering sounded like in small doses, I realized it was what I would have previously called "digital". And, once I started doing true zero latency monitoring of my tracking (by running monitoring before conversion) I realized that my mics sounded completely different than I thought they did. But that experience got my ear tuned into what slight time alignment issues sound like. So for me, I'm really glad to have some of the gear I acquired when I was chasing a "more analog" sound, but I never got that sound until I just got better at mic placement and mixing. Concrete advice if you're chasing a "analog warmth"- Start by monitoring your signal direct. Talk into your microphone at close range. I betcha it suddenly sounds warmer and fuller. But that's just signal direct, no magic. That's not analog mojo, that's just a nice coherent signal. Now you know what it should sound like. - Now that you know what it sounds like when the signal is clean, you can start listening for what in your room is messing that up when you're at full volume. And if talking quietly and close into a direct monitored microphone doesn't sound clear and full, your room has serious issues and you're probably not even on this forum. I think a lot of you guys with "real" studios on here don't realize how much latency messes up the monitoring sound of the average home recordist. They don't even know what their gear sounds like because they don't hear the real signal until much later in the process by which time they've already tried to "fix it" when it was monitoring all along that made it sound wrong. This is why you always hear sound samples of people trying to fix something and it's like "huh? What's wrong with this?" They had a bias because it sounded bad when they tracked it, though it was captured fine. I have been preaching for years that everyone should have some kind of small mixer.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Aug 10, 2024 16:55:33 GMT -6
Ya know, I think the âdigital is sterileâ thing is a holdover from when converters sucked (think MBox 1 days). These days I think digital can be described lots of ways but âsterileâ is not what comes to mind for me, even on prosumer interfaces. I feel like itâs just a myth at this pointâŚ
Now if you said digital doesnât sound as good, or as 3D etc, I think thereâs an argument to be had. But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. Iâm not saying everyone is wrong in saying those things matter, or that they donât harm lots of productions etc. Just saying they the whole âsterileâ argument holds no water for me.
YMMV
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 10, 2024 17:22:02 GMT -6
Actually an MBox 1 user who couldn't figure out how to record anything peaking above -20 was how I realized the problem was crappy analog stages. After I turned his recordings up, they sounded better than most most projects recorded in major pro studios. My jaw was on the floor and I started never recording over -10.
|
|
|
Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 10, 2024 19:46:14 GMT -6
Ya know, I think the âdigital is sterileâ thing is a holdover from when converters sucked (think MBox 1 days). These days I think digital can be described lots of ways but âsterileâ is not what comes to mind for me, even on prosumer interfaces. I feel like itâs just a myth at this point⌠Now if you said digital doesnât sound as good, or as 3D etc, I think thereâs an argument to be had. But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. Iâm not saying everyone is wrong in saying those things matter, or that they donât harm lots of productions etc. Just saying they the whole âsterileâ argument holds no water for me. YMMV This is exactly my point but stated differently. You nailed it.
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 10, 2024 20:18:51 GMT -6
Well......, Sterile is defined by not being able to produce children or offspring lol, I would argue that all things being equal, digital is neutral when it's at its best, and even at that not necessarily in a good way compared to analog variants, converters like Burl use transformers to get a more analog vibe, i personally like as neutral as possible in a converter, if im not thinking about it at all, its great imv. Real 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortions, tape compression, tube rectification slew, transformer saturation etc, there is a quality to all that stuff that is very pleasing to our ears, modeling is still not all the way there imo(see mass homogeneity), even a killer plug like 7th heaven reverb by liquid sonics that i use all the time has sampling points that the company itself tells you sound better if you don't deviate from those fixed points(complicated tech reasons over my head), to me there is still a grand theft auto look vs real life relating to everything digital audio, without real deal analog added in heavy doses into the chain i would bug out the game, this is jmo, all digital to me is the lyrics to that one meat loaf song.....
"I want you, I need you, but there aint no way i'm ever gonna love you, but don't feel sad, cause 2 out of 3 aint badđ
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 10, 2024 21:56:31 GMT -6
Actually an MBox 1 user who couldn't figure out how to record anything peaking above -20 was how I realized the problem was crappy analog stages. After I turned his recordings up, they sounded better than most most projects recorded in major pro studios. My jaw was on the floor and I started never recording over -10. Bob, oh beard of audio wisdom, I think & please correct me if you disagree, we need to separate â digital processing â & â digital recording â. They are to different concepts that we have a tendency to group together.
|
|
|
Post by kyamcalvert on Aug 10, 2024 23:21:39 GMT -6
I'd say that is one piece of it, but also.... low cost converters, low cost mics (with weird resonances), untreated rooms (more weird resonances - especially that square bedroom), judicious application of a plugin without really understanding it or knowing how/why to use it -- or better yet stacking 17 plugins on one track (trying to "fix" whatever they fucked up with the first 2), and then finally smashing the living hell out of it with L2. ( I may have still left some room for Dan) Maybe... but I don't think the converters are the problem. I don't think the average home recordist can hear the difference in converters but they DO hear something. I âshot outâ a few converters with a friend of mine who isnât an engineer at all⌠And the difference between a focusrite/RME tabletop interface and an ancient Mytek 8x96 is not subtle. Blind A/B and we picked the Mytek out of 4 options every time. That said, I donât think converters are much of a problem at all on the recording side. I do think stacking 30 plugins on a bad recording can do a lot of harm. My old Neotek series 1 walks all over 70% of plugs. And there are a lot of evil sounding parts in that desk. But the devil you know? Might be âless harshâ than the plugin you donât. Guess Iâm in the Dave Hill/Bob Katz sort of camp in thinking digital artifacts just tend to be far more offensive to the human ear. Couple that with the modern tendency to throw 50 plugs on a session within 5 mins of opening the thing? Problems. Majority of recording in my life has been on-location live stuff. Moving mics for a couple hours, capturing rehearsals, and a lot of careful listening was just par for the course. I could see why home recordists arenât compelled to do this as much.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Aug 11, 2024 3:03:50 GMT -6
Ok, this applies only to the less experienced engineers out there who are also usually the ones trying to figure out how to get a piece of gear to deal with this "sterile" problem. I have a theory on this. I think that about 70% of the time what you're hearing is comb filtering which you are associating with "digital" though it would really be the same with hi-fi analog. You just don't know that because you've only tracked "digital". The other 30% of the time it's some sort of time alignment problem from poorly planned multi-miking. Where did I get this idea?
I say this because I learned that lesson myself just over the last three or four years as I really started to get a handle on phase coherency, time alignment, and (yes) room treatment. Once I learned what comb filtering sounded like in small doses, I realized it was what I would have previously called "digital". And, once I started doing true zero latency monitoring of my tracking (by running monitoring before conversion) I realized that my mics sounded completely different than I thought they did. But that experience got my ear tuned into what slight time alignment issues sound like. So for me, I'm really glad to have some of the gear I acquired when I was chasing a "more analog" sound, but I never got that sound until I just got better at mic placement and mixing. Concrete advice if you're chasing a "analog warmth"- Start by monitoring your signal direct. Talk into your microphone at close range. I betcha it suddenly sounds warmer and fuller. But that's just signal direct, no magic. That's not analog mojo, that's just a nice coherent signal. Now you know what it should sound like. - Now that you know what it sounds like when the signal is clean, you can start listening for what in your room is messing that up when you're at full volume. And if talking quietly and close into a direct monitored microphone doesn't sound clear and full, your room has serious issues and you're probably not even on this forum. I think a lot of you guys with "real" studios on here don't realize how much latency messes up the monitoring sound of the average home recordist. They don't even know what their gear sounds like because they don't hear the real signal until much later in the process by which time they've already tried to "fix it" when it was monitoring all along that made it sound wrong. This is why you always hear sound samples of people trying to fix something and it's like "huh? What's wrong with this?" They had a bias because it sounded bad when they tracked it, though it was captured fine. I have  been preaching for years that everyone should have some kind of small mixer. Iâve been using a Mackie 1402 as my monitoring mixer for the last over 20 years - I canât stand latency it ruins groove and feel and my little mixer gives my close on true ZLM. Unless of course you meant every should be mixing through a small mixer?
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 11, 2024 3:10:52 GMT -6
I have been preaching for years that everyone should have some kind of small mixer. Iâve been using a Mackie 1402 as my monitoring mixer for the last over 20 years - I canât stand latency it ruins groove and feel and my little mixer gives my close on true ZLM. Unless of course you meant every should be mixing through a small mixer? Are you doing the half click thing with the Mackie? cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2024 3:59:24 GMT -6
Record to a speaker instead of headphones and you'll kick the quality of the performance up dramatically.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 11, 2024 8:26:36 GMT -6
Actually an MBox 1 user who couldn't figure out how to record anything peaking above -20 was how I realized the problem was crappy analog stages. After I turned his recordings up, they sounded better than most most projects recorded in major pro studios. My jaw was on the floor and I started never recording over -10. That's why Spinal Tap used Analog instead. Then they could go to +11. Chris
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 11, 2024 10:24:07 GMT -6
The problem is that most solid state gear hasn't even enough headroom to be run at plus 4. Headroom is a big big deal.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
|
Post by ericn on Aug 11, 2024 10:32:43 GMT -6
The problem is that most solid state gear hasn't even enough headroom to be run at plus 4. Headroom is a big big deal. Which goes hand in hand with the way tubes ease into clipping.
|
|
|
Post by bluesholyman on Aug 11, 2024 10:33:34 GMT -6
The lower cost of digital recording tech has lowered the entry point so that basically anyone can play. . . . So the cost very much both determined and raised the bar to entry. Which also meant some kid in his basement could never afford the state of the art digital multrack recorders that were the order of the day back then in professional studio facilities. But neither could he afford the microphones or the properly designed studios and control rooms that came with it. . . . IMO itâs not the digital versus analog thing that makes the biggest difference, itâs everything else. I was just thinking about how a reduced cost of entry (for recording) has lead to a market saturated with mediocrity. Not that the equipment is bad, which some have pointed out, but that the skills/experience with everything involved (signal chain, room, etc.) are lacking or non-existent in the home/amateur recordist. I say this, acknowledging I am in the "lacking experience" camp and considering the "everything else" is an eye opener. Itâs not just sterile for me. Plug-ins are flat and 2 dimensional compared to my hardware. In cinematic terms they lack âdepth of fieldâ. Iâd love plug-ins to be able to achieve the same as then I could sell my hardware and have a nice heap of cash in my bank account. This stuff is highly subjective. If I could have re-phrased describing what I heard from "sterile" to something else, it would have been a "lack of depth of field, dimension," etc. Thank you for making this coherent for me. I honestly believe this is what I hear, or think I hear is lacking. When my skills/room/etc., are sufficient, I am rather certain that the outboard gear will matter to me. Ya know, I think the âdigital is sterileâ thing is a holdover from when converters sucked (think MBox 1 days). These days I think digital can be described lots of ways but âsterileâ is not what comes to mind for me, even on prosumer interfaces. I feel like itâs just a myth at this point⌠Now if you said digital doesnât sound as good, or as 3D etc, I think thereâs an argument to be had. But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. Iâm not saying everyone is wrong in saying those things matter, or that they donât harm lots of productions etc. Just saying they the whole âsterileâ argument holds no water for me. YMMV Yup. After reading through all these responses, "sterile" is the wrong word to describe what I was asking about.
|
|
|
Post by doubledog on Aug 11, 2024 11:11:37 GMT -6
all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. very true, but all this cheap gear was not as cheap and accessible as it is today. Sure, 4 track cassette has been around for a long time, but it also usually still sounds like 4-track cassette (with some exceptions). And there were no plugins to smash and destroy tracks. I think a lot of 4-track cassette recordings ended up kind of dull and flat for the same reasons (bad rooms, bad mics or other gear, bad placement, and general lack of recording knowledge). Digital just enabled the Walmart of recording where everyone could casually record in their pajamas.
|
|
|
Post by rowmat on Aug 11, 2024 12:12:31 GMT -6
I think the most qualified ears to overall judge the relevancy of the analog/digital debate are mastering engineers who have been mastering before the digital revolution and since.
Our guy is adamant the overall standard and quality has declined as the major commercial studios have closed and the home/project studios have become the norm.
But can that be attributed to digital being sterile ?
While seasoned experienced audio peeps can spend hours A/Bâing the subtleties of various digital/analog recording and mixing techniques and each come to their own personal conclusions I would argue that professional mastering engineers are exposed to a much bigger picture as to what constitutes good quality audio production and what are the main issues affecting the quality.
And from what Iâm hearing from our former mastering guy itâs mostly lack of experience in both technique and gear selection combined with poor acoustics.
Take an already bright sibilant mic recorded adjacent to reflective gyprock surfaces combined with 6-10db of 10khz EQ boost and a bunch of plugins trying to simulate Abbey Road Studio Two and then ask someone whether it would sound better if it was all analog or not.
Maybe different but better?
If all the other boxes are ticked in terms of quality sound recording production and technique then the analog/digital debate is probably the least of the issue and something that for most is more esoteric than it is problematic.
Our mastering guy used to load mixes onto an ATR-102 and he hasnât done that for at least 10 years.
But is that why the standard has dropped?
Or was it because a 1/2â 30ips stereo mix tape was more likely to have come from one of the top half dozen professional studios in the area that had been operating for at least 30 years with everything that comes along with that?
The analog/digital debate was far more relevant in the early days of digital especially with the advent of CDâs.
IMO many early CDâs were almost unlistenable compared to the vinyl versions almost certainly due to poor quality masters or incompatible mastering. Or remixes that still used high end EQ boosts to compensate for multi-generational tape transfer losses. And of course first generation DA converters in the CD players.
But I had a Linn Sondek LP12 turntable with an Accuphase MC2 moving coil cartridge and a pretty decent phono preamp stage.
While the majority of the customers I demonstrated CDâs to when I worked in audio/visual retail in the early 1980âs thought CDâs were audio nirvana compared to what they had previously heard.
|
|
|
Post by kbsmoove on Aug 11, 2024 12:23:01 GMT -6
And while youâre at it consider the overuse of click tracks, quantisation, samples, pitch correction, denoising, no room tone/spill etc etc. can all contribute to that âperfectâ sterile digital sound. this is to me the sound of digital. its the production techniques and the quest for perfection via quantizing, sample replacement, beat perfect and pitch perfect everything. canned saturation and no character on anything whatsoever. miss me with all that shit.
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 11, 2024 12:23:19 GMT -6
But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. I think you may have misread the point being made with those sorts of statements. I can't speak for everyone, but what I meant earlier was that the medium -- be it analog or digital -- is not the issue at all. The very notion that "digital is sterile" is, in itself, a fallacy. In the analog era, only trained professionals were making records, and largely in professional facilities with high-calibre musicians. Digital changed all that, and put recording within reach of both untrained operators and under-qualified musicians alike. Thus, a bevy of bad recordings.
|
|
|
Post by bgrotto on Aug 11, 2024 12:25:41 GMT -6
And while youâre at it consider the overuse of click tracks, quantisation, samples, pitch correction, denoising, no room tone/spill etc etc. can all contribute to that âperfectâ sterile digital sound. this is to me the sound of digital. its the production techniques and the quest for perfection via quantizing, sample replacement, beat perfect and pitch perfect everything. canned saturation and no character on anything whatsoever. miss me with all that shit. This type of recording has been around since the 1970s, though. Everything from Steely Dan to Elvis Costello has suffered by this approach (IMHO, mind you). The difference today is that you can do it for much, much cheaper, and with little effort required, so there's a sort of uniformity to a lot of recordings that makes for a bland 'sameness'. But I for one really struggle to listen to any number of records from the analog era (eg - Steely Dan) because I can't get past the overly-slick production. Big YMMV with this one, obviously!
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Aug 11, 2024 12:36:29 GMT -6
But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. I think you may have misread the point being made with those sorts of statements. I can't speak for everyone, but what I meant earlier was that the medium -- be it analog or digital -- is not the issue at all. The very notion that "digital is sterile" is, in itself, a fallacy. In the analog era, only trained professionals were making records, and largely in professional facilities with high-calibre musicians. Digital changed all that, and put recording within reach of both untrained operators and under-qualified musicians alike. Thus, a bevy of bad recordings. Agreed, I think weâre saying the same thing from two different angles.
|
|
|
Post by kbsmoove on Aug 11, 2024 12:54:52 GMT -6
This type of recording has been around since the 1970s, though. Everything from Steely Dan to Elvis Costello has suffered by this approach (IMHO, mind you). The difference today is that you can do it for much, much cheaper, and with little effort required, so there's a sort of uniformity to a lot of recordings that makes for a bland 'sameness'. But I for one really struggle to listen to any number of records from the analog era (eg - Steely Dan) because I can't get past the overly-slick production. Big YMMV with this one, obviously! these two things are not the same to me.
i do not understand the need for perfection that went into steely dan's records, but i respect their ability to make it happen. i similarly don't understand the need for everyone to edit and trigger the life out of good drum performances. one still sounds better to me than the other. i don't put elvis costello in the same boat - but admittedly i only listen to his first two records. my aim is true has some blatant mistakes on it!
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 11, 2024 13:24:16 GMT -6
But all the people saying digital is sterile due to bad mic technique, room sound, crappy mics etcâŚthat all existed in analog too. i agree 100%, a linear logic disconnect, bad is bad
|
|
|
Post by tonycamphd on Aug 11, 2024 13:29:18 GMT -6
This type of recording has been around since the 1970s, though. Everything from Steely Dan to Elvis Costello has suffered by this approach (IMHO, mind you). The difference today is that you can do it for much, much cheaper, and with little effort required, so there's a sort of uniformity to a lot of recordings that makes for a bland 'sameness'. But I for one really struggle to listen to any number of records from the analog era (eg - Steely Dan) because I can't get past the overly-slick production. Big YMMV with this one, obviously! these two things are not the same to me.
i do not understand the need for perfection that went into steely dan's records, but i respect their ability to make it happen. i similarly don't understand the need for everyone to edit and trigger the life out of good drum performances. one still sounds better to me than the other. i don't put elvis costello in the same boat - but admittedly i only listen to his first two records. my aim is true has some blatant mistakes on it!
I agree, i love Led Zep and Steely Dan, i love Led Zep more, i love old van halen, i like hyper competent's pushing and leaning over the edge in any genera of art, the danger of an arm circles cliff fall is exciting AF to me, but i respect the hell out of and really like the steely dan stuff and as well as other meticulous stuff? If it moves you it's good
|
|