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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 7, 2024 13:36:04 GMT -6
Something on the 2 bus is where I started and would start. If you are also recording the music you are mixing, then it changes things a bit. It sounds like you are looking for mixing, though. RND 542's do nice things on the 2 bus. A good compressor for the mix is nice as well. I like my LTL RGB stuff(pentode and royal blue) too. There is something to analog, I believe. In fact, I haven't heard a single instance of an A/B with a plugin counterpart that sounded better. The best plugs aren't clones, I think.
Anyway, if you are tracking as well, it could be useful to find gear that helps there, too. 542s are good for tracking as well as the mixbus. The LTL RGB and colour modules, too. Using one side or both sides of a VCA comp could be useful in tracking, I suppose.
Honestly, I kind of think either plenty of good outboard to work with on the way in can yield great results. Then stay in the box afterwards. Larry Crane's setup seemed cool to me where he would get a mix on the console and outboard, print everything(commit) in pro tools then all revisions thereafter were done with tweaks in the box. Something like that seems like it could be really nice. So I guess it all depends on how you envision your workflow as to what gear you want.
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Post by bluesholyman on Aug 7, 2024 13:46:29 GMT -6
I think all you've really proven is that Apple Music (and most streaming platforms) have the ability to ruin good music. If gear were still made with vacuum tubes and carbon comp resistors, I'd be very content....
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Aug 7, 2024 14:06:55 GMT -6
Building on Dr Bill’s “alive” comment. I have never used a plug in and had the positive visceral feeling. I have using OB, real gear is just a tangible physical and tactile feeling, that engages me way more than plug ins and I think focusses your attention more.
If I was starting over now, with no OB, the silver bullet mkii would be #1 on my list, followed by what’s said above a good 2 channel comp and eq for your 2 buss.
The new Stam stereo pultec has mid band, tube and solid state circuitry, would cover a lot of ground and you could use it for tracking too.
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moeses
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Post by moeses on Aug 7, 2024 14:26:21 GMT -6
Silver Bullet for sure
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 7, 2024 14:35:01 GMT -6
The terms warm vs. sterile are commonly used in discussions on analog vs. digital. But what do we really mean by that? I think it would be really good to define these attributes and understand what is really sonically happening when we experience these feelings, to be able to distinguish between preferred units and technologies. Dan is on spot with many arguments regarding distortion. As I see it the “warm” is made up of two things, EQ (usually a rolled off high end and low boost) and distortion (which acts as compression and thus usually at extremes contributes to the EQ’s effect). This does not equal analog nor tube nor a specific transistor. Many of these just happen to have one or more of these attributes in the physical nature depending of course on the circuit to what extent it is present. This doesn’t mean that you could not digitally achieve a similar result, which usually would be in a controlled context. What I believe is the magic (as I have figured it out in my head, no science here…) is the slight random and fluctuating outcome analog and especially tube equipment offers (we are talking very slightly here) that thru build ups, tracks interacting with each other creates a slight phase shifted, distorted soundscape, contributing to what we usually would call a 3D effect of sound. This is pleasant for the human ear. And I do believe this outcome is possible to achieve digitally likewise. As I have understood this randomness is coded into emulating plugs as well? Or I could be wrong. But all and all my point being. When we describe our preferences I think it’s important to try to understand what actually is happening there and not buy into the myth of commonly accepted facts of how a tube, analog or digital sounds. I have been so many times blown away by what lies behind a song, a track or a sound. I remember listening to an older song on Apple music through my system and as an experiment, I pulled out an original pressing on vinyl of that same song. I don't remember the song but I think it was something Hendrix. While I can't sit here and say the Apple music version was sterile, what I heard, probably more accurately "felt" from the vinyl through the exact same system was remarkable, and the A/D converters being used in this case were hardly amazing. Yes, there will be quite a difference in these. First if we think vinyl vs. digital. Even if you’d had the 48/24 full digital file of it and compared it with the vinyl the experience would differ quite a bit. Mostly because the master would be rather different (assuming the digital would be a remastered version). The vinyl master would likely have more headroom, less compressed, be more centered and have an over all different character to it due to the vinyl player and the whole chain. Now you have further compared it with a version compressed and likely normalized by a streaming platform. Which have degraded the file quite a bit. Even if the master would have been sonically identical to vinyl version the difference would be very audible at this stage. The vinyl as a medium together with the player and the environment created around it usually sets you in a very unique listening context which is hard to recreate in other ways, the sonics and the ritual. So I try not to compare vinyl with anything, rather see the digital master and the vinyl master as two separate products. But I do compare the streaming platform with the digital master and the streaming platform always disappoints. So I have began to even consider that as a third product of the record and accept it for what it is not to loose my sleep over it. EDIT: and in the midst of all my rambling, the point might be, the digital can offer qualities like wider stereo images and clarity the vinyl doesn’t, while it offers the punchy bold lows and mids with an unprecedented intimacy…. for example 😉
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Post by ironinthepath on Aug 7, 2024 14:52:54 GMT -6
I think if I were to have limited outboard gear before the converter, I’d like it to include a good pre, basic EQ, and compression. If it has to be one box, I’ve been thrilled with Aurora Audio GTQC. The opto in that is quite nice in my opinion.
There are many ways to go, but I prefer a solid chain going in, with a bit of compression but not overdoing it, then mixing ITB mainly after that: but I’m no pro, and I’m sure others have many opinions about hybrid setup.
EDIT: I wrote the above post hours ago, forgot to actually post it until a minute or two back. Since then many replies have been added and it seems key goal now is 2 bus. It’s not as relevant now, apologize for that
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Post by viciousbliss on Aug 7, 2024 15:37:21 GMT -6
Try the Portico II on Access Analog. That will probably get you the most for the least money if you buy one. These new Silver Bullets could be even better, I just have to try one. Fusion also has a lot to offer too. A lot of the less expensive hardware that I've tried doesn't have a lot of sweet spots and I believe Dan said the same thing above about certain hardware in general. You can get some really expensive stuff for $150-$250 a month payments on Vintage King and Reverb. Just get someone at VK who is willing to go 48 months with their card. You could just sell it if you don't end up earning what you wanted. The most economical thing is to go for quality stuff to run your whole mix through and then just use plugins for the rest. Keep adjusting the plugins in ways that get the most out of your hardware. Settings that worked on plugin versions generally worked on hardware in my experience. You just have a lot more sweet spots on the hardware. Another thing is to try the mastering chains at Access Analog. You can sort of sweeten a plugin mix that has issues, but there's a lot of limitations as to what hardware can do to solve or hide mix issues. Saturation is probably the biggest difference maker with hardware. You can run a plugin mix through a hardware Shadow Hills or Elysia Alpha compressor and it's not all of a sudden going to transform into something lively and full. Can't say I have a lot of experience with hardware eqs. But I felt like the Massive Passive at Access Analog wasn't really any better than the PA SPL PQ plugin. It was way better than the Massive Passive plugins though. Finally, using dither before your hardware insert makes a huge difference. Stuff sounded much harsher with the dither plugin off. Btw, what about your converter? There's a Youtube video of a guy using the Portico II through his converter and then the Access Analog version that was probably going through an Aurora N at the time(they sometimes run them through their Antelope Galaxy instead). The Access Analog Portico sounded much better.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 7, 2024 16:04:10 GMT -6
Silver bullet, or a comp that I can use both for tracking or across the buss.
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Post by bluesholyman on Aug 7, 2024 17:11:10 GMT -6
I wasn't expecting a very specific piece of gear to stand head/shoulders above in recommendations, more like "get an xyz type thing," but it seems that the Silver Bullet is in fact just that and now at the top of the list for an outboard piece to get first.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 7, 2024 18:22:44 GMT -6
Have not read the whole thread yet. But I like spending other peoples money so here goes.
Without knowing what kind of stuff you do i would say a swiss army knife compressor. So Dave Hill Titan (caveat have never used but it is Dave Hill) cranesong Trakker or maybe Distressor if you get along with them. A stereo eq wouldnt hurt. I recently went Iron Age Audio.
That Phoenix that Zenpro was blowing out recently might be interesting. Iirc a pre/eq. But no personal experience. Just looked like a good deal.
Maybe look into Overstayer if you want something not everbody else has.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by Mister Chase on Aug 7, 2024 18:28:21 GMT -6
Have not read the whole thread yet. But I like spending other peoples money so here goes. Without knowing what kind of stuff you do i would say a swiss army knife compressor. So Dave Hill Titan (caveat have never used but it is Dave Hill) cranesong Trakker or maybe Distressor if you get along with them. A stereo eq wouldnt hurt. I recently went Iron Age Audio. That Phoenix that Zenpro was blowing out recently might be interesting. Iirc a pre/eq. But no personal experience. Just looked like a good deal. Maybe look into Overstayer if you want something not everbody else has. Cheers, Geoff I have several of those DRS Q4 units. I'm contemplating more with Warren's price right now. That's a lot of unit for the money. I love the color they have on 2 bus so I'm currently looking into strapping my 500 series pair to my 2 bus. I have used the EQ on a mix before and it can be really nice. It's a unique sounding EQ. It's my only experience with gyrator EQ thus far. Stepped knobs make for easy recall.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 7, 2024 19:14:10 GMT -6
Slight OT. But dan where are you finding Daking Fet IIs for cheap? I have been looking for a second one for literally years Cheers, Geoff
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Post by Dan on Aug 7, 2024 19:31:43 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Aug 7, 2024 19:49:52 GMT -6
But I like spending other peoples money Ahhhh yes. So much easier and less painful than breaking out the CC or Checkbook.
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Post by bluesholyman on Aug 7, 2024 20:02:41 GMT -6
Have not read the whole thread yet. But I like spending other peoples money so here goes. Without knowing what kind of stuff you do i would say a swiss army knife compressor. So Dave Hill Titan (caveat have never used but it is Dave Hill) cranesong Trakker or maybe Distressor if you get along with them. A stereo eq wouldnt hurt. I recently went Iron Age Audio. That Phoenix that Zenpro was blowing out recently might be interesting. Iirc a pre/eq. But no personal experience. Just looked like a good deal. Maybe look into Overstayer if you want something not everbody else has. Cheers, Geoff I prefer you spend it than my wife....she doesn't buy studio gear with it.
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Post by drumsound on Aug 7, 2024 22:11:07 GMT -6
I'd go with a mix bus compressor. I feel like mix bus compression is a big part of translation. It's easy to hear every little thing in the studio when your focus is only hearing the mix. But once it goes out to the real world, where there are distractions, and people are often not just sitting and listening, good mix bus compression helps things to continue to be heard the way they were intended. I'd look at a Drawmer 1968. If you want to spend more the RND 5424 is a wonderful piece. Both have HPF detector circuits which make the whole process that much better and easier.
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 8, 2024 0:10:38 GMT -6
I wasn't expecting a very specific piece of gear to stand head/shoulders above in recommendations, more like "get an xyz type thing," but it seems that the Silver Bullet is in fact just that and now at the top of the list for an outboard piece to get first. What do you mostly track or mix? Any references what you’d like to achieve and what framework sonically are you aiming for. Silver bullet might be the thing for you. It might also be that you aim for something totally different. It’s good to look as far ahead as possible not to have to replace gear if possible, but rather build on the preferred sound.
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Post by thehightenor on Aug 8, 2024 1:32:09 GMT -6
I am starting a hunt now, with the intent to begin a transition from completely ITB to a hybrid scenario beginning next year. Wanted to get thoughts on what would be the first piece of [analog] outboard gear you would choose. Generally speaking, I would think some sort of stereo compressor or leveling amplifier, but then again, just not sure. I assume there are some "foundation" pieces that just make things more better good and again, I would think this is what I would want, but I could be wrong. Don't worry about price/connectivity as all that can be figured out. Appreciate the suggestions, thoughts, etc. First question. What are you using for tracking? You’ve got to capture the magic sauce at the source (see my clever play on words there :-) I’d 100% get a tracking set up sorted first. You can use plug-ins to mix and develop a sense of which tools you favour, perhaps VCA or Vari- Mu compression on the mix bus. Once you’ve zoned in on the type of tools you favour, you can begin the dropping using plug-ins and move to the real deal hardware for the critical areas of your mix like the stereo bus, bass, vocals, leads, then use software for everything else. I’ve just transitioned back to hybrid after a couple of albums ITB and now I’m going to have to remix those two albums as my hybrid rig blows away my ITB rig !!
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Post by vvvooojjj on Aug 8, 2024 2:27:26 GMT -6
I won't go to the ITB/Hybrid debate so my recommendation for 2bus would be a tube compressor (Manley, Thermionic, Fairchild etc..) and an eq.. BAX, new Terry Eq (https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a1ee9d9ccc5c53d7fc674fd/t/66b24c8eedee4d4a4b5cf035/1722961038845/Terry+Audio+-+SEQ+Factsheet+%26+Manual.pdf), Gyraf, Curve Bender, Api 5500, Pultec (maybe the new Stam). You would also need a quality converter for the loop. Tracking has a bigger influence than a 2-bus chain IMO, so depending on your work/hobby/interests I'd start there. But then the most "boring" but important thing by far: room+speakers+acoustics+trinnov/GLM.
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Post by bluesholyman on Aug 8, 2024 5:41:16 GMT -6
I wasn't expecting a very specific piece of gear to stand head/shoulders above in recommendations, more like "get an xyz type thing," but it seems that the Silver Bullet is in fact just that and now at the top of the list for an outboard piece to get first. What do you mostly track or mix? Any references what you’d like to achieve and what framework sonically are you aiming for. Silver bullet might be the thing for you. It might also be that you aim for something totally different. It’s good to look as far ahead as possible not to have to replace gear if possible, but rather build on the preferred sound. This is laregly for my songwriting setup to get things demo worthy. But I do want to plan long term and not get things I"ll only replace later. Most of the tracking will be outsourced as I don't have a good room for that. I can get away with some scratch vocals, good enough for a demo perhaps. Also probably acoustic, mando, electric, etc. - not drums / keys - those are plugins or outsourced. Again, demo level only. I will be mostly focused on mixing the sources with this setup, for the foreseeable future. I am starting a hunt now, with the intent to begin a transition from completely ITB to a hybrid scenario beginning next year. Wanted to get thoughts on what would be the first piece of [analog] outboard gear you would choose. Generally speaking, I would think some sort of stereo compressor or leveling amplifier, but then again, just not sure. I assume there are some "foundation" pieces that just make things more better good and again, I would think this is what I would want, but I could be wrong. Don't worry about price/connectivity as all that can be figured out. Appreciate the suggestions, thoughts, etc. First question. What are you using for tracking? You’ve got to capture the magic sauce at the source (see my clever play on words there :-) I’d 100% get a tracking set up sorted first. You can use plug-ins to mix and develop a sense of which tools you favour, perhaps VCA or Vari- Mu compression on the mix bus. Once you’ve zoned in on the type of tools you favour, you can begin the dropping using plug-ins and move to the real deal hardware for the critical areas of your mix like the stereo bus, bass, vocals, leads, then use software for everything else. I’ve just transitioned back to hybrid after a couple of albums ITB and now I’m going to have to remix those two albums as my hybrid rig blows away my ITB rig !! I have some basic inexpensive mics, Rode NT1 4th Gen I'll use as the general workhorse - a good vocal mic is on the list, but don't want to get into the weeds on that one just yet. I also have a Cranborne EC2 going into an Avid MBox Studio. As mentioned above, my focus will mostly be on mixing demos of song I write (with others.)
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Post by Dan on Aug 8, 2024 7:43:35 GMT -6
The terms warm vs. sterile are commonly used in discussions on analog vs. digital. But what do we really mean by that? A sense of "alive-ness" is the best way I can describe it. It's hard to put into words. For those new to a hybrid workflow, it might even be hard to hear. But once you've lived there for awhile, it's very hard to go back to a fully ITB workflow - given of course that you have the means to sustain the hybrid workflow. Even when finalizing and printing my hybrid mixes, I am usually disappointed with the flatness or lifeless that invades the mix as its now no longer going through analog - but it's far less affected than a fully digital ITB mix for me. I could talk about this for hours, but those of us who work that way know what I'm talking about. Ultimately, sigh, everything ends up digital, but for me it's worth it to try to keep as much life and vibrancy in the music as possible for as long as possible. Even at the cost and effort of what a hybrid mix setup requires. It makes a tangible difference to some of us. I just mastered (kind of) a big score by a mentee of mine who has been getting some fairly high level films. He self mixed and mastered (ITB) this particular orchestral score, and asked me to lend a set of ears before it was released. He has been forced to be mixing himself and mastering ITB for a variety of reasons for the last 5 years or so. I listened. Instantly heard a technically good, but somewhat lifeless mix. I took it upon myself to do a super quicky "re-mastering" job where I really just added a touch of Silver Bullet, Miad EQ, & Bricasti (which BTW, he had already used ITB) and sent it back. He heard the subtle yet obvious - to us - differences, and his comment was that it was 1000 times better. I taught him how to listen and work in the studio 25 years ago as an intern, and he has become a very gifted and experienced composer. LOL. Obvious the 1000X's comment was hyperbole, but the difference was quite beneficial to the life of the music (orchestral with Appalachian overtones). Beneficial enough that the release was halted until I had time to "remaster" the entire score. the lifelessness is from digital artifacts: eqs that distort the phase drastically, compressors that do not work at all upon the signal and cannot even detect the signal, non-linear functions that alias horribly and produce infinite harmonics of infinite harmonics, hard breaks in the code causing discontinuities in the wave form, etc. Right now the most common are hard sounding decramped eqs (amplitude mostly corrected by pre-warping but phase even more screwed up, eg Pro q3 zero latency mode, Oxford eq, renaissance eq the most common) into dynamics processors about as “good” as a 3630 at best when set optimally (smacky bs) or totally defective (99% of emulations, what comes with the daw) and limiters that are essential downwards bit crushers and nasty clippers. And the whole thing will be thrown into some awful undereqed reverb like what comes with the daws, ported algorithms from old boxes minus the analog and digital distortion, or still now the early algorithms in Valhalla Vintage Verb which are absolutely disgusting compared to the newer ones like palace. This has nothing to do with digital processing. There have been EQs for a long time with proper amplitude and phase (the Weiss EQ1, MDWEQ, PSP SQuad were some of the first), smoothed compressors since the 90s (Renaissance EQ and Oxford Dynamics), working fast compressors since Weiss DS1, Pro Audio DSP DSM, and Kotelnikov, and limiters capable of taking the peaks off since the Oxford Limiter which has a sound yes but it does work as advertised as an aggressive bus compressor and peak limiter. The boringness is often from using emulations, stock plugs, etc at the very limited settings they are not broken on. They often have heavily simplified circuit models that omit a ton of behaviors and stuff. The most advanced ones are found in the newer cpu killing guitar stuff like cytomic the scream hd, newer overloud, mercurial spark onwards, the newer neuraldsp ones, the newer softube that in no way could run on uad’s old sharc chips but itb mixers want to cram in hundreds of plugs and and play with toys, not virtual instruments, yes these plugs are toys and they are dysfunctional toys where the clones might be toys incapabe of what the real thing does but are still semi-functional eq or compressor, and they want to use toys and the solution is to just use not touch the toys, not randomly distort everything (better start with good sound that doesn’t need to get filled in after being carved up like what happens in a medium to high gain amp) or pile on more crap and hope it works. Unfortunate now we start with crap instruments, crap or boring samples in VSTi drum kits and sample libraries, lame digital synths, poorly set amp sims, because the budget to even fix the real amp is not there, much less go to a real studio and record and pay real musicians. Spotify ceo is worth 6 billion dollars and the business relationships are all conglomerate Tencent owns 61% of the voting shares of Tencent music, which owns a huge chunk of UMG, and Sony a competing major owns a big chunk of Tencent music, and all of these guys (and their owners) fund the streaming services which lose money on paper yet have billionaire owners, pay out based on cartel rates, use legalese to grandfather in older artists, and make new artists pay to play to get on the service and then payola their way onto a playlist. Am I the only one who smells a rat?
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Post by Dan on Aug 8, 2024 7:54:23 GMT -6
What do you mostly track or mix? Any references what you’d like to achieve and what framework sonically are you aiming for. Silver bullet might be the thing for you. It might also be that you aim for something totally different. It’s good to look as far ahead as possible not to have to replace gear if possible, but rather build on the preferred sound. This is laregly for my songwriting setup to get things demo worthy. But I do want to plan long term and not get things I"ll only replace later. Most of the tracking will be outsourced as I don't have a good room for that. I can get away with some scratch vocals, good enough for a demo perhaps. Also probably acoustic, mando, electric, etc. - not drums / keys - those are plugins or outsourced. Again, demo level only. I will be mostly focused on mixing the sources with this setup, for the foreseeable future. First question. What are you using for tracking? You’ve got to capture the magic sauce at the source (see my clever play on words there :-) I’d 100% get a tracking set up sorted first. You can use plug-ins to mix and develop a sense of which tools you favour, perhaps VCA or Vari- Mu compression on the mix bus. Once you’ve zoned in on the type of tools you favour, you can begin the dropping using plug-ins and move to the real deal hardware for the critical areas of your mix like the stereo bus, bass, vocals, leads, then use software for everything else. I’ve just transitioned back to hybrid after a couple of albums ITB and now I’m going to have to remix those two albums as my hybrid rig blows away my ITB rig !! I have some basic inexpensive mics, Rode NT1 4th Gen I'll use as the general workhorse - a good vocal mic is on the list, but don't want to get into the weeds on that one just yet. I also have a Cranborne EC2 going into an Avid MBox Studio. As mentioned above, my focus will mostly be on mixing demos of song I write (with others.) disregard everything everyone wrote here and get a better mic before you get anything else. If you have 750 bucks you can get an AT4047, 1000 a Shure KSM 44a, 1250 an Austrian Audio OC818 and these are just the new prices of stuff neither clone nor communist mics.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 8, 2024 8:36:26 GMT -6
My vote would be new monitors.
Otherwise, AS 1178
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Post by stam on Aug 8, 2024 8:40:46 GMT -6
A 4K bus comp for sure!
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Post by niklas1073 on Aug 8, 2024 9:00:44 GMT -6
What do you mostly track or mix? Any references what you’d like to achieve and what framework sonically are you aiming for. Silver bullet might be the thing for you. It might also be that you aim for something totally different. It’s good to look as far ahead as possible not to have to replace gear if possible, but rather build on the preferred sound. This is laregly for my songwriting setup to get things demo worthy. But I do want to plan long term and not get things I"ll only replace later. Most of the tracking will be outsourced as I don't have a good room for that. I can get away with some scratch vocals, good enough for a demo perhaps. Also probably acoustic, mando, electric, etc. - not drums / keys - those are plugins or outsourced. Again, demo level only. I will be mostly focused on mixing the sources with this setup, for the foreseeable future. I have some basic inexpensive mics, Rode NT1 4th Gen I'll use as the general workhorse - a good vocal mic is on the list, but don't want to get into the weeds on that one just yet. I also have a Cranborne EC2 going into an Avid MBox Studio. As mentioned above, my focus will mostly be on mixing demos of song I write (with others.) I will agree with Dan completely. Forget plenty of what’s been going down. I believe as well you need to start with getting the mic it’s worth building a chain on. I would try to find the best mic for your voice you can afford. It’s an investment for life. From there on I would say your needs if its for demo would be a nice interface like Apollo that would give u some unison options to get acquainted with various vocal chains without going broke or something colorful like heritage 73 interface or something else inspiring. That will get you a long way on demo or final vocs. I get it if you want to go hybrid or outboard for the sake of having fun and by all means, knock yourself out, it is fun. But I think you will be slightly disappointed with the impact compared to a killer mic. That is objectively most bang for the buck chain wise after all. And I would not invest in a chain if I don’t have a great mic and know very well what I am about to achieve with a specific outboard unit I am adding to my chain. This is my point of view. There are surely other approaches too.
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