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Post by EmRR on Aug 1, 2024 6:31:25 GMT -6
One thing I don't understand is, why do those old records have so little low end? I understand the lack of HF extension, but why no low end? The vinyl might have had its low end reduced, but the original master tape was that way, too? Low end didn’t really exist much before the 90’s, relative to today, and it’s directly linked to leaving vinyl behind. The equipment has always done it. The techniques generally didn’t emphasize it. When you get back to the ‘50’s and earlier, you find film consoles with fixed HP and LP filters specified to trim the edges. Radio and recording consoles did not. If you’v by chance got a pair of EV 666, try them for ‘60’s kick and bass. Sounds like a Stones record. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Aug 1, 2024 9:02:00 GMT -6
Are you recording it or mixing it? There’s not much going on in that reference. Really bright dead snare, short kick without much sustain (probably no front head and muffled), probably a towel or something on the hi hats…bass sounds like it’s muted and played with a pick, some pitch vibrato on the guitar (VB-2, EQD Aqueduct, Magnatone style pedal is good for this or a plug in with wow and flutter) and dry vocals You got this!
Both, and we just finished tracking the first song. Thanks for the encouragement.
Basically I'm trying to figure out whether we should re-record with a different technique or re-try doing the mix with all of the suggestions here. I *think* the mix approach can work if it's mainly LPF and HPF.
The main issue is the vocal. I recorded it through a Gefell MT70 -> 1073. It sounds too polished and smooth.
One thing I don't understand is, why do those old records have so little low end? I understand the lack of HF extension, but why no low end? The vinyl might have had its low end reduced, but the original master tape was that way, too?
Lots of lowend was cut on vinyl so you could track it on an average turntable with an average cartridge and arm, guys cutting new vinyl all need to be reminded Shure hasn’t made the V15MR in over 30 years ( best tracking cartridge ever). I’ll admit the NOS I have mounted in the Souther Triplaner on the SOTA is probably the last I will ever see. |
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Post by bossanova on Aug 1, 2024 9:29:53 GMT -6
Both, and we just finished tracking the first song. Thanks for the encouragement.
Basically I'm trying to figure out whether we should re-record with a different technique or re-try doing the mix with all of the suggestions here. I *think* the mix approach can work if it's mainly LPF and HPF.
The main issue is the vocal. I recorded it through a Gefell MT70 -> 1073. It sounds too polished and smooth.
One thing I don't understand is, why do those old records have so little low end? I understand the lack of HF extension, but why no low end? The vinyl might have had its low end reduced, but the original master tape was that way, too?
Lots of lowend was cut on vinyl so you could track it on an average turntable with an average cartridge and arm, guys cutting new vinyl all need to be reminded Shure hasn’t made the V15MR in over 30 years ( best tracking cartridge ever). I’ll admit the NOS I have mounted in the Souther Triplaner on the SOTA is probably the last I will ever see. I might be thinking back to the 40s, but I know at one time making sure that jukeboxes and other typical playback systems didn't resonate was also a consideration. (I know one era of recording used less reverb for that reason.) I don't know if that was still a consideration by the 60s though. It's way before my time, but I've heard that one shouldn't discount pre-80s recordings being "mixed for vinyl" and having that sound imprinted to some degree on the master tapes and/or requiring a remix to hear what the full range would have sounded like. I'm guessing that Bob might have some insights there? |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 1, 2024 9:31:06 GMT -6
Low-passing the guitars is most of it!
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Post by bossanova on Aug 1, 2024 9:37:11 GMT -6
Low-passing the guitars is most of it! Hey Bob. I just asked a question above regarding how much of that 60s bandwidth-limited sound is baked into the original mixes versus something that happened at the mastering stage. I meant to tag you but you already popped in in the meantime :-) |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2024 9:43:42 GMT -6
Nothing but LPF's there, absolutely nothing special going on, to me that's 1000% a modern production with the highs tossed. 1930's gear naturally sounds way more hi-fi than that. LPF helps but mostly just makes everything darker and is not the only ingredient for this sound. but you are right its a modern production. nobody really wants to sound like 1966. its always lofi paired with todays audio habits. This. Trust me, nobody actually wants it to sound authentically old. They forget what that really sounds like. No bass, etc etc It's about hinting at the sound without fully doing that sound. |
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Post by bossanova on Aug 1, 2024 9:44:50 GMT -6
LPF helps but mostly just makes everything darker and is not the only ingredient for this sound. but you are right its a modern production. nobody really wants to sound like 1966. its always lofi paired with todays audio habits. This. Trust me, nobody actually wants it to sound authentically old. They forget what that really sounds like. No bass, etc etc It's about hinting at the sound without fully doing that sound. I mean, I do, but I'm a weirdo like that and I don't want to put the money into the gear that would be needed to make it happen anyway. 😅 |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2024 10:36:13 GMT -6
This. Trust me, nobody actually wants it to sound authentically old. They forget what that really sounds like. No bass, etc etc It's about hinting at the sound without fully doing that sound. I mean, I do, but I'm a weirdo like that and I don't want to put the money into the gear that would be needed to make it happen anyway. 😅 Haha. Fair enough. I guess what I mean is the average listener or a client hasnt really looked critically at what a recording from 1965 really sounds like! Personally I love it. But I made that mistake a few times of delivering a mix that really sounded it was from 1960s only to get feedback like "the bass sounds mushy" or "the vocal is a bit hollow." |
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Post by christopher on Aug 1, 2024 12:40:18 GMT -6
You didn’t make a mistake if you delivered what they asked for and you knew it was good.
The clients always make the mistake of not knowing what they want. They aren’t producers, this is why someone who knows the studio has to be producer and be the boss, tell the clients “go Play video games, we got this”
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2024 13:14:57 GMT -6
You didn’t make a mistake if you delivered what they asked for and you knew it was good. The clients always make the mistake of not knowing what they want. They aren’t producers, this is why someone who knows the studio has to be producer and be the boss, tell the clients “go Play video games, we got this” Exactly. It was only a mistake in the sense that I had to go back and "modernize" it a bit. After having to do that twice I learned to say things like "listen to this Beach Boys track back to back with this Shins track, do you really want it to sound like the Beach Boys or do you want it to FEEL like the Beach Boys?" So far everyone has said "ok, wait... I don't really want it to sound like it was recorded in 1966, just catch that vibe." Kind of a bummer actually. I did get to work as a session player on a record where they really wanted it to sound like 1965. The release was in mono, the music was great, and it was a super fun record to play on. All the players in one (tiny) room. Great songs. I was on a rickety upright piano with guitars and stuff all crammed on top of each other, I was literally sitting on an amplifier for a few takes as a piano stool. It came out exactly like a folk rock record from the 60's. The only thing we overdubbed is that I added some organ parts on a few tracks and I think one or two guitar solos were overdubbed. I loved it and it got great local reviews but the album didn't do very well. Not everyone's taste Oh well! EDIT: At minute 1:19 there's a quick shot of video from the actual recording session. You can't see all the players but you can see that the best way to make a record sound lofi is to actually BE lofi. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Aug 1, 2024 13:18:46 GMT -6
Oh yeah, watching this video (aside from making me feel super depressed... where have the years gone???) reminds me of another key element for that 60's sound. The vocals are almost always loud AF. The songs were mixed for AM radio so the vocals had to cut.
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Post by doubledog on Aug 1, 2024 14:21:02 GMT -6
If you’v by chance got a pair of EV 666, try them for ‘60’s kick and bass. Sounds like a Stones record. I think the EV 664 is pretty good for that too (but I've never heard them side by side - I only have the 664) |
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Post by Oneiro on Aug 1, 2024 18:02:18 GMT -6
I don't know if "lo-fi" is the word since his work is often stunning but Mark Neill / Soil of the South is one of those guys who really gets a true old school sound that isn't too hokey or manufactured. He's probably best known for helping the Black Keys do their Brothers record in Muscle Shoals.
He uses all the old American, British and German stuff (EV 666, RE-15/16, EV omni, Shure 545, classic Neumanns, RCA, Coles 4038 / ball biscuit, etc), less mics on drums, old tube stuff, etc. Designed Toe Rag in the UK and Dan Aeurbach's studio, maybe did some things for Dave Cobb too. Believe he's very into the Golden Ratio approach of room design / layout.
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Post by robschnapf on Aug 4, 2024 14:01:36 GMT -6
1/4 tape
Scotch 111 or 207
Ampex 601
EV mics
Fun
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