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Post by rowmat on Jul 31, 2024 1:43:15 GMT -6
Lead singer was the former drummer in my studio partner’s band. I believe this was recorded to tape. Great stuff. Do you know anything else about the signal chain? Not specifically but I’m pretty sure Simon was using a U67 on vocals. The studio is Soundpark in Melbourne and has a bunch of vintage analog gear going back to the 1950’s.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 31, 2024 2:03:16 GMT -6
But the other secret sauce in many of these Lo-Fi 1960’s style recordings is they were mostly tracked live in one room often on no more than 4 track recorders.
Tracks also had to be bounced down which resulted in generation losses and you had plenty of room spill (glue) and none of the clinical separation we tend to have today.
If the mix sounds like it’s assembled out of samples the end result never going to sound very organic.
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Post by theshea on Jul 31, 2024 3:37:01 GMT -6
ok, thats right up my alley. dynamics and ribbons and compression and dry room helps when recording. mixing: softube bca has a nice 2254 comp which makes everything creamy and a saturation knob which i would abuse. also tape off course. plugins will do. spring reverb or plates. bit of slapback delay. limit your gear and your choises. two more polished (to me) lofi song o mine: if you need help - drop me a line or some tracks. This stuff is beautiful. Did the tracks sound similar to the finished product after tracking with the technique you describe, or was it more in the mixing? thanks. I will drop you a line. thanks. i always try to record as much sound as my vision. so i mainly choosed dynamic or ribbon mics through neve preamps with a bit of compression on. the instruments used are the most important sound. but yeah, during mixing the sound gets mangled a lot more.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 31, 2024 6:16:01 GMT -6
This is the reference that the band gave me:
Nothing but LPF's there, absolutely nothing special going on, to me that's 1000% a modern production with the highs tossed. 1930's gear naturally sounds way more hi-fi than that.
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Post by svart on Jul 31, 2024 6:22:45 GMT -6
All these posts talking about special plugins and preamps and effects and whatnot..
Just LPF everything a lot lower than you would normally do and HPF everything higher than you'd normally do. Then don't treat the low mid bloom on anything. Compress heavily.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 31, 2024 6:58:08 GMT -6
But the other secret sauce in many of these Lo-Fi 1960’s style recordings is they were mostly tracked live in one room often on no more than 4 track recorders. Tracks also had to be bounced down which resulted in generation losses and you had plenty of room spill (glue) and none of the clinical separation we tend to have today. If the mix sounds like it’s assembled out of samples the end result never going to sound very organic. I've experimented with this for years. Live in the room and spill is 80% of the sound.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jul 31, 2024 7:01:01 GMT -6
This is the reference that the band gave me:
Nothing but LPF's there, absolutely nothing special going on, to me that's 1000% a modern production with the highs tossed. 1930's gear naturally sounds way more hi-fi than that. Ok. Cool sound but I wouldn't call it lo-fi. As others have said it's a lot of LPF, dry drums, sparse and careful arrangement. That's the JJ Cale vibe, lots of exemples.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 9:18:53 GMT -6
Plenty 'o classic EV's like Chess Records? Mid 60's through Early 70's...
Ala RE20 (they used 666's)/RE15's/635a's. Sennie 441/Vintage MD421. Beyer M88.
Coil and/or Silver Bullet Plug. Chris
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Post by bossanova on Jul 31, 2024 9:19:33 GMT -6
I've been doing some recordings with an RE-11 from the 70s, and it definitely has a built-in lo-fi/vintage charm. I'm going to guess it's partially the age of the mic and partially the roll off in the highs that Bob has said was characteristic of the 10s and 11s compared to the 15s and 16s.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 9:30:23 GMT -6
A 'lil "Mountain Soul" on Dan's fave Scarlett. Somewhat redeemed through an EV 635a and MJUCjr! Chris P.S. Tech difficulties loading. Will try after work today.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 9:38:08 GMT -6
But Toupee on Hair Metal. Chris
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Post by sean on Jul 31, 2024 9:38:26 GMT -6
Are you recording it or mixing it?
There’s not much going on in that reference. Really bright dead snare, short kick without much sustain (probably no front head and muffled), probably a towel or something on the hi hats…bass sounds like it’s muted and played with a pick, some pitch vibrato on the guitar (VB-2, EQD Aqueduct, Magnatone style pedal is good for this or a plug in with wow and flutter) and dry vocals
You got this!
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Post by doubledog on Jul 31, 2024 9:40:15 GMT -6
keep everything simple, probably minimal mic'ing on drums as well (3 or 4 mics maybe, not 20 mics...) and don't be fooled by a video that shows a specific mic . Unless that is live concert footage, it might not be the same mic that they used to record (as they used for the lip-sync video... videographers love props)
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Post by jaba on Jul 31, 2024 12:57:48 GMT -6
All these posts talking about special plugins and preamps and effects and whatnot.. Just LPF everything a lot lower than you would normally do and HPF everything higher than you'd normally do. Then don't treat the low mid bloom on anything. Compress heavily. Very much agreed. "Lo-fi" plugs can often do more harm than necessary. Good arrangement, EQing and compression will get you into that aesthetic territory better than a small army of tape plugs or whatnot.
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Post by bossanova on Jul 31, 2024 13:48:36 GMT -6
Okay, I wanted to tackle this more in depth. My years of devouring written information and listening to the greats talk about recording back then has given me enough insight to make a list of what “makes” a 60s hi-fi pop record. If I’m wrong, please correct, all of this is 2nd hand from other people though much of it has been tested by me trying to reproduce the process digitally in the DAW age.
In no specific order: Great rooms with pleasant ambiance.
Distance micing instruments and vocals in great rooms to balance sound and avoid spiky transients.
Tracking basics live in one room with bleed and ambiance. Some of those, like the “God Only Knows” bass or the “James Bond Theme” guitar bleeding into the surrounding mics and sounding huge are near impossible to reproduce artificially (in my experience).
“Clean” tube gear.
Vintage condensers and ribbon mics, although Brian Wilson recorded lead vocals on Shure 545s that don’t stand out too much from those on 47s. Bob has said that the resonances in modern mics are one of the biggest problems in trying to reproduce vintage vocals in particular.
Tape Heads, Tubes, Tape Bounces, and Tape Wear eating extended and high frequency transients.
A very lean low end. Very little below 100hz, maybe kick drum and bass, virtually nothing below 70. Most fundamentals are way down from micing farther away and/or shelving. Vocals are primarily 1st harmonic and above.
Mono drums with fewer mics.
Chamber, Plate, and Spring reverbs, usually mono. Gold Star had tape pre-delay, some of the other studios had the delay after a short chamber.
Lower dynamic range/Peak to Loudness ratio overall from micing techniques and having drums mixed lower. Probably reduced further by hardware during mastering/cutting. Some of those Byrds and Sunshine Pop records are craaaaazy squished without sounding like modern ear aches. Got to keep above that noise floor.
Very ear friendly high end. Many of those vocals into the late 60s, even the early 70s, start rolling off sharply after 5k, but its hard to make that sound natural with LPFs because the frequencies still extend in a psychoacoustic manner on the analog recordings. The “Sessions With Sinatra” book says that Sinatra was specifically “rolled off above 5k” on a Pultec during the 60s.
For certain sounds, less compression overall. I think that Gold Star only had one compressor for many years? That’s also not a fair modern comparison since tape was doing some of the work. [Added: and again, the records still aren’t modern punchy.]
Combining # 7 and 11, an overall RIAA friendly frequency curve and mixing for vinyl/AM radio rather than modern digital playback.
No midrange resonances. A lot of those old records are smoooooth.
That’s what I’ve got. I’ve found that modern imitations are pale at best without the tape, tubes, and rooms. Discuss!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 14:37:24 GMT -6
Vintage toned Singers and Instrumentalists. IMHO 95%
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Post by Darren Boling on Jul 31, 2024 15:50:03 GMT -6
But Toupee on Hair Metal. Chris Touche
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jul 31, 2024 16:00:02 GMT -6
May have been said, but... the drum sounds are key. Not a lot of mics, tracking saturation, and a cheap tape machine or old Tascam type console can go a long way.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 31, 2024 18:37:26 GMT -6
A 'lil "Mountain Soul" on Dan's fave Scarlett. Somewhat redeemed through an EV 635a and MJUCjr! Chris P.S. Tech difficulties loading. Will try after work today.
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Post by EmRR on Jul 31, 2024 20:54:35 GMT -6
Sometimes I'll record something to the wire recorder if it really needs to sound like a 1940's acetate. You might get something similar (distortion) disabling the bias in a tape machine, haven't tried it.
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Post by copperx on Jul 31, 2024 22:57:49 GMT -6
Are you recording it or mixing it? There’s not much going on in that reference. Really bright dead snare, short kick without much sustain (probably no front head and muffled), probably a towel or something on the hi hats…bass sounds like it’s muted and played with a pick, some pitch vibrato on the guitar (VB-2, EQD Aqueduct, Magnatone style pedal is good for this or a plug in with wow and flutter) and dry vocals You got this!
Both, and we just finished tracking the first song. Thanks for the encouragement.
Basically I'm trying to figure out whether we should re-record with a different technique or re-try doing the mix with all of the suggestions here. I *think* the mix approach can work if it's mainly LPF and HPF.
The main issue is the vocal. I recorded it through a Gefell MT70 -> 1073. It sounds too polished and smooth.
One thing I don't understand is, why do those old records have so little low end? I understand the lack of HF extension, but why no low end? The vinyl might have had its low end reduced, but the original master tape was that way, too?
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Post by rowmat on Jul 31, 2024 23:18:08 GMT -6
Are you recording it or mixing it? There’s not much going on in that reference. Really bright dead snare, short kick without much sustain (probably no front head and muffled), probably a towel or something on the hi hats…bass sounds like it’s muted and played with a pick, some pitch vibrato on the guitar (VB-2, EQD Aqueduct, Magnatone style pedal is good for this or a plug in with wow and flutter) and dry vocals You got this!
Both, and we just finished tracking the first song. Thanks for the encouragement.
Basically I'm trying to figure out whether we should re-record with a different technique or re-try doing the mix with all of the suggestions here. I *think* the mix approach can work if it's mainly LPF and HPF.
The main issue is the vocal. I recorded it through a Gefell MT70 -> 1073. It sounds too polished and smooth.
One thing I don't understand is, why do those old records have so little low end? I understand the lack of HF extension, but why no low end? The vinyl might have had its low end reduced, but the original master tape was that way, too?
Partly mastering for vinyl but possibly also the monitoring systems of the day weren’t as accurate as todays. Many of the monitors from around the 1960’s especially through the 1970’s and into the 1980’s were more like PA systems. 15” bass drivers and horns. Nearflield monitors really only began to appear in the mid 1970’s. And many of the studios that were used for a lot of those classic 1960’s albums were invariably lacking in what is considered acceptable acoustic design by today’s standards. Try and judge what’s happening with the low end in a badly designed room through a PA system? Listen to any LED Zeppelin, Deep Purple or most of the iconic rock albums of late 1960’s into the 1970’s and they are distinctly lacking in low bass. However I bet the master tapes sounded mighty in the control room via 4x 15” bass drivers, mid horns and ring radiators. And the vocal on this mostly sits between about 200hz to 5khz and almost sounds telephonic.
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Post by sean on Jul 31, 2024 23:23:01 GMT -6
You might try running the vocals back into your 1073 and overdriving it. Or, if you have any analog tape echos like a Space Echo or Echoplex/Fulltone TTE run the vocal into that without any delay. That's what the female vocal in your reference sounds like to me. A good plug-in for this the Safari Pedals Fox Echo Chorus because you can turn the delay off but still drive the input into distortion, and there's a blend. And maybe just a little delay and spring reverb for it will sound awesome. But there are tons of harmonic and distortion plugins and you've probably got a ton that'll work.
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Post by theshea on Jul 31, 2024 23:53:49 GMT -6
This is the reference that the band gave me:
Nothing but LPF's there, absolutely nothing special going on, to me that's 1000% a modern production with the highs tossed. 1930's gear naturally sounds way more hi-fi than that. LPF helps but mostly just makes everything darker and is not the only ingredient for this sound. but you are right its a modern production. nobody really wants to sound like 1966. its always lofi paired with todays audio habits.
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Post by the other mark williams on Aug 1, 2024 1:00:57 GMT -6
The main issue is the vocal. I recorded it through a Gefell MT70 -> 1073. It sounds too polished and smooth. I would try a dynamic on the vocal instead. #1 choice for me would be an EV RE-11 or RE-16. #2 would probably be an M88. Also, a Zulu would help a bunch, IMO.
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