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Post by phdamage on Jul 15, 2024 22:10:10 GMT -6
As my studio and outboard collection have grown, I have reached a point where my TRS patchbays often look like a birds nest of cabling, I’m wondering if it might make sense to switch to TT. The cost seems like it might be prohibitive.
I currently have 4 TRS bays which do work just fine. I know I should be able to get that all in 2 TT bays, but even if I don’t get totally lazy and just buy db25 I then have to rely on my mediocre (at best) soldering skills to make the patch cables. I’m guessing I would be looking at $2kish, at least, no?
And how much harder is it soldering your own TT bays compared to say making mic or TRS cables?
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 16, 2024 0:11:18 GMT -6
I'd go with the black lion tt db25 patchbays, they have 3 year 0% financing at vintage king, the bays are switchable to 1/2 normal, normal, ground iso, strapped, vert strapped, grnd buss and they are better priced than just about any tt bays ive seen, i have 6 switchcraft tt's that don't have any of the switching ability and its something i really wish i had on them I also made a ton of tt cables out of mogami 3 conductor and a bunch of used tt jacks, heat shrink over the barrels, it was easy and have been using them for decades now vintageking.com/features/black-lion-audio-pbr-tt-96-point-gold-plated-tt-db25-patch-bay |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 16, 2024 0:23:09 GMT -6
The Redco TT patchbays I think are the most affordable honestly. And work great. And do all the switching. Can get in black or silver: www.redco.com/Redco-R196-D25PG-DB25-96pt-TT-Patchbay.htmlThat said. I'm not sure I understand why you'd want to do this? TT patchbays will still have a nest of wires coming out of it. Just even more compacted in a given space. Unless you decide to start normaling or half normaling things. Which I would do. |
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Post by damoongo on Jul 16, 2024 0:27:46 GMT -6
As my studio and outboard collection have grown, I have reached a point where my TRS patchbays often look like a birds nest of cabling, I’m wondering if it might make sense to switch to TT. The cost seems like it might be prohibitive. I currently have 4 TRS bays which do work just fine. I know I should be able to get that all in 2 TT bays, but even if I don’t get totally lazy and just buy db25 I then have to rely on my mediocre (at best) soldering skills to make the patch cables. I’m guessing I would be looking at $2kish, at least, no? And how much harder is it soldering your own TT bays compared to say making mic or TRS cables? If you keep all mic level signals off the bay it has two advantages. You won’t have phantom on the bay, which means no blowing up ribbons as you insert tt cables, AND, if there’s no mic level signals to patch, you can get away with less than suuuuper high end tt gear . If it’s all only line level signals on the bay, there’s a lot more voltage on those signals than mic level signals, so perfect plating etc is less crucial. I mean, don’t go bottom of the barrel, but mid grade will be just fine for line level patching. (Make an xlr patch panel to get from your mic lines to the pre inputs. Then put the pre outputs and everything else on the tt bay…) |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 16, 2024 1:30:36 GMT -6
I put all my gear on a 32 way XLR patch panel like the mastering engineers do.
It’s robust and reliable and allows me to have all the preamp mic inputs on there to and just plug my mic lines straight into the front of the bay.
Then for my Pulse 16 converter I have 1-8 feeding my analog monitor mixer and 9-16 on a desktop Switchcraft 8 channel TT bay Switch craft 1625.
I bought some TT to XLR 2m patch lines and I can patch in my Pulse converters to the XLR bay for hybrid mixing.
It kept the cost of going fully TT down as I already had the XLR bay.
This stuff is f’ing expensive!
I used custom Van Damme/ Neutrik cable and plugs and bought only one 1625 TT 8 channel module and just adding these 8 channels of TT cost in total £800!
I’m lucky I don’t need any normalising for my set up but going fully TT was going to be £3,000 + for the Switchcraft bay, custom DB25 looms and patch leads!
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Post by tasteliketape on Jul 16, 2024 3:07:12 GMT -6
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 16, 2024 5:13:59 GMT -6
Redco TT here. Switched from TRS a few years back. The difference was...mostly in my wallet. I had Samson S-Patch Plus TRS bays. Switching on the front panel was very convenient. I miss that. And I could make TRS patch cables pretty inexpensively and easy. I haven't found a way to make TT cables that's any cheaper than buying Redco TT cables. And it's still a rats nest of wires when using lots of HW. No way around that.
My vote is use whatever works for you, and whatever you currently have. If there is a problem, then consider a change. It's a substantial amount of work.
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2024 6:35:25 GMT -6
TT here. I buy the patchbays on ebay for cheap and then buy cheap snake cables to use. I remove connectors on one side of the snake and solder to the patchbay. Takes a while but saves hundreds if not thousands.
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2024 6:37:54 GMT -6
The other option is buy ones with punchdown blocks and punch the cables to the back: linklink |
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Post by Ward on Jul 16, 2024 9:25:33 GMT -6
The crosstalk with TRS patchbays is INSANE. I N S A N E L Y high! I mean, it's batshit crazy high and shouldn't be used for anything but patching a synth or guitar rig together.
The best are S'Witchcraft, then Redco, Don't know the Black Lion ones but there are probably a lot of them further down the list.
The switchcraft are very expensive but equally flexible and useful too . . . and the crosstalk has to be -99db below the threshold of hearing.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2024 9:42:12 GMT -6
To paraphrase Bill Clinton, it’s the Jacks Stupid, look at the Jacks in an ADC, Switchcraft, Bitree or other Quality TT or military spec bay,now look at the crappy jacks in all those TRS bays. Whirlwind had a great 1/4in bay but it was only 2 conductor.
I have said it before I’ll say it again I have a bay from the original telephone operator in Marshfield WI original Jacks still function. Doubt you will say that about any 1/4in bay in 50 no less 100 years.
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Post by tonycamphd on Jul 16, 2024 9:54:49 GMT -6
if the patchbays are wired correctly I believe they will likely have less crosstalk than almost any other piece of stereo analog gear you plug into, i believe an API console measures at <-78db crosstalk @1khz at the stereo buss(which is something you can hear and will narrow the stereo image, most converters are around -129db these days)
The patchbay connects should be shielded as close as possible to the contact points leaving about a 1/4" of wire unshielded, that repeats at least 96x on most tt bays adding up to who knows what? I'm sure Svart can speak to the electrical physical interference that may cause?(i'm curious) I always try to keep the shielding as tight to the +/- as possible when wiring because it makes sense to me
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Post by ulriggribbons on Jul 16, 2024 10:30:41 GMT -6
I took a similar approach as svart. I bought TT bays from mr patchbay some years back, and bought snake cables that were twice as long as I needed, cut in half for fanouts that can be soldered to the patchbay. Example: buy 40ft 12 channel xlr male -> xlr female, cut in half, and you have ins and outs that can be soldered to the patchbay for 12 channels.
$.02
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Post by Dan on Jul 16, 2024 10:48:51 GMT -6
tt are much more robust than trs
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Post by svart on Jul 16, 2024 10:55:12 GMT -6
if the patchbays are wired correctly I believe they will likely have less crosstalk than almost any other piece of stereo analog gear you plug into, i believe an API console measures at <-78db crosstalk @1khz at the stereo buss(which is something you can hear and will narrow the stereo image, most converters are around -129db these days) The patchbay connects should be shielded as close as possible to the contact points leaving about a 1/4" of wire unshielded, that repeats at least 96x on most tt bays adding up to who knows what? I'm sure Svart can speak to the electrical physical interference that may cause?(i'm curious) I always try to keep the shielding as tight to the +/- as possible when wiring because it makes sense to me Shielding on cables is only good for a max of about 60dB of isolation too. So small cables tightly bundled could crosstalk as well with hot signals. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2024 10:58:57 GMT -6
All TT bays here. All rear connections are multi-pin elco's. Once upon a time I soldered wires to the bay jacks. After multiple reconfigs, I saw the error of my ways and moved to TT/Elco. I've never looked back, and life is about 1000X's easier now. TT is a commitment though.
The BEST patch bay is the one that is very well thought out, with grounding and interfacing and multi use applications firmly thought thru. My TT/Elco bays will NEVER need to be completely re-done again like my hard soldered ones were about every 3 years.
Just my personal experience building multiple studio's and more than half a dozen extremely large patch bays. YMMV
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Post by thirdeye on Jul 16, 2024 11:21:13 GMT -6
96pt TT bays here (x5), all Redco. We had up to (7) TRS bays before making the move over to TT, that was crazy! All of our TT bays are db25, but in retrospect, I may have gone with Elco (like drbill) as they are much easier to solder for me! Of course, all Mic Pre inputs are on XLR bays.
If I was on (4) trs bays, I'd probably not go through the expense of moving over to TT. Just me.
I do think TT/db25 is a more robust connection than TRS and less prone to the connectors working their way out or being pulled out accidentally.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 16, 2024 12:16:16 GMT -6
The crosstalk with TRS patchbays is INSANE. I N S A N E L Y high! I mean, it's batshit crazy high and shouldn't be used for anything but patching a synth or guitar rig together. The best are S'Witchcraft, then Redco, Don't know the Black Lion ones but there are probably a lot of them further down the list. The switchcraft are very expensive but equally flexible and useful too . . . and the crosstalk has to be -99db below the threshold of hearing. My switchcraft TT bay at work feels flimsy compared to my audioaccessories one. That thing is a tank. I wish I could run them at my house but they cost like over 2x more than the redco stuff. Switches on the front of the switchcraft TT bay is cool though. |
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Post by ulriggribbons on Jul 16, 2024 12:21:12 GMT -6
A good point in there by thirdeye, I don't patch microphones through patchbays.
I have a single room, so I use a rapco/horizon stage box to all microphone pre inputs, and the mic pre outputs go to the TT bays. Phantom power through TT bays is not desirable, in my opinion.
One other thing that I was taught, inputs are always on bottom, outputs on top. Not sure if there is agreement on that?
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Post by jmoose on Jul 16, 2024 13:33:06 GMT -6
And how much harder is it soldering your own TT bays compared to say making mic or TRS cables? I'd say considerably harder because of the reduced space & sheer density. If your a guitar player, think of replacing a pickup or volume pot in something like a Charvel with a big open foot sized control cavity vs working on a telecaster where the opening is about two fingers. Was in the same boat myself not too long ago with TRS bays & thinking about a TT switchover. Truthfully? I'm moving the whole shop from northern NJ / NYC suburbs to Johnson City TN... and so no better time to redo everything then when its all ripped apart eh?! Decided against it for a few reasons... #1 - Haven't had any real issues with the neutrik TRS bays over the years. Its basically just me here so nothing is really subject to abuse from outsiders - AND - Everything in the back is wired with 24 & 16 pair snakes with proper lacing & strain relief. Makes a huge difference. Can honestly say I haven't had any more 'problems' then typical TT setups in flagship studios. #2 - Cost vs return. Big expense. For me with 5/6 bays? The bays alone are one thing but the cost / time to re-terminate at the business end is significant. #2a - Return vs sound - Total wash. I doubt they'd make anything sound better. The point about crosstalk is fair. And true. But also IME kind of irrelevant. Yes the TRS bays, all things being equal will have the potential to be noisier but still... that noise floor & cross talk on the bays is well below any of the analog gear we use. Also a fair point that TRS has more surface contact area then TT... so its that going for it. If your having reliability issues that's one thing. If you've completely outgrown the rig that's yet another. I'm a little closer to #2 then #1 and there are other ways to expand things... guest bays... aux snakes... that's the direction I'll go. None of my preamp inputs are/will be on any sort of bay. Like ulriggribbons the snake outputs from the live room are going direct into the mic amps with only the preamp outputs coming up on the bays. Less noise. More reliable. And less chance of letting out magic smoke when you mis-patch a compressor to the input of a preamp and hit it with phantom... (not that I've ever done that) If I need mic level patching in the control room I'll wind up building a set of XLR bays. But I don't really think I'll get to that point. Really just came down to... not wanting a big soldering project I think the cost worked out, for me to something like $5k and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in the actual output of the shop. Not like, say buying a new microphone or some wicked outboard... FWIW - given the choice? I'd rather make DB25 then TT patch cables. YMMV. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2024 14:32:51 GMT -6
And how much harder is it soldering your own TT bays compared to say making mic or TRS cables? I'd say considerably harder because of the reduced space & sheer density. If your a guitar player, think of replacing a pickup or volume pot in something like a Charvel with a big open foot sized control cavity vs working on a telecaster where the opening is about two fingers. Was in the same boat myself not too long ago with TRS bays & thinking about a TT switchover. Truthfully? I'm moving the whole shop from northern NJ / NYC suburbs to Johnson City TN... and so no better time to redo everything then when its all ripped apart eh?! Decided against it for a few reasons... #1 - Haven't had any real issues with the neutrik TRS bays over the years. Its basically just me here so nothing is really subject to abuse from outsiders - AND - Everything in the back is wired with 24 & 16 pair snakes with proper lacing & strain relief. Makes a huge difference. Can honestly say I haven't had any more 'problems' then typical TT setups in flagship studios. #2 - Cost vs return. Big expense. For me with 5/6 bays? The bays alone are one thing but the cost / time to re-terminate at the business end is significant. #2a - Return vs sound - Total wash. I doubt they'd make anything sound better. The point about crosstalk is fair. And true. But also IME kind of irrelevant. Yes the TRS bays, all things being equal will have the potential to be noisier but still... that noise floor & cross talk on the bays is well below any of the analog gear we use. Also a fair point that TRS has more surface contact area then TT... so its that going for it. If your having reliability issues that's one thing. If you've completely outgrown the rig that's yet another. I'm a little closer to #2 then #1 and there are other ways to expand things... guest bays... aux snakes... that's the direction I'll go. None of my preamp inputs are/will be on any sort of bay. Like ulriggribbons the snake outputs from the live room are going direct into the mic amps with only the preamp outputs coming up on the bays. Less noise. More reliable. And less chance of letting out magic smoke when you mis-patch a compressor to the input of a preamp and hit it with phantom... (not that I've ever done that) If I need mic level patching in the control room I'll wind up building a set of XLR bays. But I don't really think I'll get to that point. Really just came down to... not wanting a big soldering project I think the cost worked out, for me to something like $5k and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in the actual output of the shop. Not like, say buying a new microphone or some wicked outboard... FWIW - given the choice? I'd rather make DB25 then TT patch cables. YMMV. First rule of soldering TT bays, remove the module from the bay! |
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2024 15:19:26 GMT -6
One other thing that I was taught, inputs are always on bottom, outputs on top. Not sure if there is agreement on that? Yes. There is standard agreement on that from the professional world. For smaller one off bays by inexperienced engineers - it's a crazy "whatever goes - whatever works" approach.  |
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Post by thehightenor on Jul 16, 2024 15:28:56 GMT -6
A good point in there by thirdeye, I don't patch microphones through patchbays. I have a single room, so I use a rapco/horizon stage box to all microphone pre inputs, and the mic pre outputs go to the TT bays. Phantom power through TT bays is not desirable, in my opinion. One other thing that I was taught, inputs are always on bottom, outputs on top. Not sure if there is agreement on that? One reason I make one of my bays XLR is so I can have the inputs to my pre's directly on the bay. It acts in effect as a pass through break out for the racks I/O In which case I have chosen to have the inputs on the top and the outputs on the bottom - it makes more logical sense with XLR bays. My mini desktop Switchtcraft TT bay is outputs on the top and inputs on the bottom it's connected to my converters and makes more sense like this. The protocol of outputs on the top and inputs on the bottom stems from the concept of normalising and has nothing to do with professional vs non professional - that notion is ridiculous. If you are running smaller bays that are being used for maximum flexibility and don't have fixed signal paths then running non normal makes perfect sense in which case the choice of where you choose to have you I/O orientated is up to the user and comes down to what makes the most sense to the person using the system. If it's a facility to be used by many different people then of course sticking to a std approach is an imperative. Horses for courses applies here. |
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Post by drbill on Jul 16, 2024 15:31:59 GMT -6
I'd say considerably harder because of the reduced space & sheer density. If your a guitar player, think of replacing a pickup or volume pot in something like a Charvel with a big open foot sized control cavity vs working on a telecaster where the opening is about two fingers. Was in the same boat myself not too long ago with TRS bays & thinking about a TT switchover. Truthfully? I'm moving the whole shop from northern NJ / NYC suburbs to Johnson City TN... and so no better time to redo everything then when its all ripped apart eh?! Decided against it for a few reasons... #1 - Haven't had any real issues with the neutrik TRS bays over the years. Its basically just me here so nothing is really subject to abuse from outsiders - AND - Everything in the back is wired with 24 & 16 pair snakes with proper lacing & strain relief. Makes a huge difference. Can honestly say I haven't had any more 'problems' then typical TT setups in flagship studios. #2 - Cost vs return. Big expense. For me with 5/6 bays? The bays alone are one thing but the cost / time to re-terminate at the business end is significant. #2a - Return vs sound - Total wash. I doubt they'd make anything sound better. The point about crosstalk is fair. And true. But also IME kind of irrelevant. Yes the TRS bays, all things being equal will have the potential to be noisier but still... that noise floor & cross talk on the bays is well below any of the analog gear we use. Also a fair point that TRS has more surface contact area then TT... so its that going for it. If your having reliability issues that's one thing. If you've completely outgrown the rig that's yet another. I'm a little closer to #2 then #1 and there are other ways to expand things... guest bays... aux snakes... that's the direction I'll go. None of my preamp inputs are/will be on any sort of bay. Like ulriggribbons the snake outputs from the live room are going direct into the mic amps with only the preamp outputs coming up on the bays. Less noise. More reliable. And less chance of letting out magic smoke when you mis-patch a compressor to the input of a preamp and hit it with phantom... (not that I've ever done that) If I need mic level patching in the control room I'll wind up building a set of XLR bays. But I don't really think I'll get to that point. Really just came down to... not wanting a big soldering project I think the cost worked out, for me to something like $5k and it wouldn't make a damn bit of difference in the actual output of the shop. Not like, say buying a new microphone or some wicked outboard... FWIW - given the choice? I'd rather make DB25 then TT patch cables. YMMV. First rule of soldering TT bays, remove the module from the bay! Yeah....that is until you CAN'T because they are hard soldered on, and you have an intermittent, and you can't get the bay to move enough to solder from the front cause you moved a gear rack 6 months ago to make room for "XYZ", and now you are on your back with a freaking hot iron, soldering uphill above your head in a massive pile of wire squeezed into a small space.... Don't ask me how I know. That was the day I sought out the RIGHT way to do things and ended up with the TT/Elco paradigm with each gear rack terminating on the back with Elco's and internal fanouts to gear, and external M to M Elco's to connect racks to bays. If you NEED bays, and you WANT to do things the right way so that you have flexibility and ease of use, pretty much any amount of money and effort becomes worth it. The peace of mind alone is worth it. I know you know this Eric. When I mentioned I thought I had $50k in wire, connectors, bays and my personal "$$ time" tied up in my bays people thought I was insane, crazy or lying. I can assure you I am not any of the above. Well......maybe crazy, but not crazy about the bays. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 16, 2024 15:46:57 GMT -6
First rule of soldering TT bays, remove the module from the bay! Yeah....that is until you CAN'T because they are hard soldered on, and you have an intermittent, and you can't get the bay to move enough to solder from the front cause you moved a gear rack 6 months ago to make room for "XYZ", and now you are on your back with a freaking hot iron, soldering uphill above your head in a massive pile of wire squeezed into a small space.... Don't ask me how I know. That was the day I sought out the RIGHT way to do things and ended up with the TT/Elco paradigm with each gear rack terminating on the back with Elco's and internal fanouts to gear, and external M to M Elco's to connect racks to bays. If you NEED bays, and you WANT to do things the right way so that you have flexibility and ease of use, pretty much any amount of money and effort becomes worth it. The peace of mind alone is worth it. I know you know this Eric. When I mentioned I thought I had $50k in wire, connectors, bays and my personal "$$ time" tied up in my bays people thought I was insane, crazy or lying. I can assure you I am not any of the above. Well......maybe crazy, but not crazy about the bays. This why I bought some really long Phillips #2 bits and extensions. Easy when you do it from the back! Also one day while at Fastenal I bought about 100 extra screws |
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