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Post by Darren Boling on Jun 29, 2024 11:36:59 GMT -6
I run a server grade cyberpower UPS with all the Sinewave crap and all that to my power conditioners. I have a few and they’re networked around the home and studio for my gear and server. Never had issues. I do the same, help a ton in summer when brownouts are common. They're cheap to find on eBay from places that refurbish them after clearing out server rooms. Vertiv Liebert is the brand I use. Only problem is they're loud so you gotta swap the fan and put them in a machine room or isobox.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 29, 2024 14:56:45 GMT -6
All other things aside, power conditioning is controversial. In the 80's I was what some would call an audiophile. Well reviewed power conditioners and cables ranged from slightly more than the standard cheap items to the price tag of a small boat. I found there was a sweet spot in most audio things. I found some superb cables that were maybe 3X more expensive that the Radio Shack brands. So instead of a $ 45 Monster cable, I might buy a $150 Acoustic Zen cable. I didn't buy the $1,000 cable because it was too expensive and wouldn't make much difference in my not super high end system anyway. If your system cost $75,000, then perhaps a $1,000 interconnect might make a noticeable difference, but for my modest stereo system, it would be overkill.
There are some great power centers that cost between $2,500 and $5,000 like PS Audio, and some very good ones that cost $500. Before we get into the never ending "cables make no difference" arguments, I found that a good power center did in fact help improve sound staging and lowered the noise floor. Considering the cost of the gear we have, a good power center buys you peace of mind if nothing else.
Before you get say.. a Monster power center for $300 somewhere, look a little higher up the food chain. Monster typically deals with higher frequencies only. Once you're sure the main power in your whole house is secure like some of the more experienced engineers here suggest, I think a better power center is well worth it. I use a Furutech power center that cost $500. Nothing crazy, but not cheap either. I chose it after using basic power centers that blew up my gear after a lightening strike. They didn't improve the sound either.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2024 18:17:51 GMT -6
All other things aside, power conditioning is controversial. In the 80's I was what some would call an audiophile. Well reviewed power conditioners and cables ranged from slightly more than the standard cheap items to the price tag of a small boat. I found there was a sweet spot in most audio things. I found some superb cables that were maybe 3X more expensive that the Radio Shack brands. So instead of a $ 45 Monster cable, I might buy a $150 Acoustic Zen cable. I didn't buy the $1,000 cable because it was too expensive and wouldn't make much difference in my not super high end system anyway. If your system cost $75,000, then perhaps a $1,000 interconnect might make a noticeable difference, but for my modest stereo system, it would be overkill. There are some great power centers that cost between $2,500 and $5,000 like PS Audio, and some very good ones that cost $500. Before we get into the never ending "cables make no difference" arguments, I found that a good power center did in fact help improve sound staging and lowered the noise floor. Considering the cost of the gear we have, a good power center buys you peace of mind if nothing else. Before you get say.. a Monster power center for $300 somewhere, look a little higher up the food chain. Monster typically deals with higher frequencies only. Once you're sure the main power in your whole house is secure like some of the more experienced engineers here suggest, I think a better power center is well worth it. I use a Furutech power center that cost $500. Nothing crazy, but not cheap either. I chose it after using basic power centers that blew up my gear after a lightening strike. They didn't improve the sound either. Yes, no, kind of maybe, again the term “ power conditioner is way over used, there is no one size or type that fits all situations. My fellow gear pimp alumni in both Audiophile and pro do the world a huge disservice as do those who say “ this works for me I have no issues”. Well did you really have issues to begin with? The best power products are designed to solve specific issues, for 99% of the public they are over kill. Most could probably get by with a simple Home Depot outlet strip with a very simple filter and MOV for protection, well until that MOV does its job then it’s just a piece of wire, of course nobody tells you that as well as the fact that now you have no spike protection and you are completely in the dark. Now yes I am sitting here with a big old Furman 20 amp voltage regulator, well while it was completely rewired 7 years ago my building is over a 100 years old with about 280 unit with their own HVAC’s 9 elevators plus a giant HVAC for 34 lobby’s, you think my voltage doesn’t fluctuate? I mean KC’s plumbing infrastructure in this neighborhood dates back to the 1800’s you think think the electrical infrastructure is up to date? So yeah you plug a Voltage meter into an outlet and it’s all over the place +- 20% in other words perfect case for a voltage regulator and some isolation. The Giant Class A BEL 2002 amp does not live on the voltage regulator, the PSU in it is basically its own voltage regulator and the way it can draw current quickly means anything that’s going to regulate current quicker than a basic breaker is a no go. Now this isn’t an endorsement of my approach, I’m not saying it will work for anyone else out there unless you live in my building. Power is the new audio voodoo, If I hear one more time I should have “ hospital grade outlets because they are superior I’ll strangle them, do you know what “ hospital grade” outlet means, really, really means ? Now keep in mind my info comes from a guy who won the Wi Bio Medical Engineer of the year award & the Guy the award was named for ( I called him Uncle Jim) , the guy who ran the Marshfield WI power utility ( we knew him as grandpa) multiple medical equipment reps. All hospital Grade really means is the Ground conductor on both the female and Male connector is a bit longer so that ground always connects first so it can’t arc in or near an oxygen field and cause a fire. Now tell me how that Affects anything unless I’m hot patching? But every power expert says they are the bomb! Again find the problem isolate it then do some research on how to actually solve it, the bad news is your probably going to find there isn’t a magic box and you need an electrician.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 29, 2024 21:11:36 GMT -6
I always use my own main outlets. They cost $49. Again, nothing crazy, but obviously more than the $2.39 ones you can get at the hardware store. I had some serious audiophile friends back in the day. They had tested a dozen different outlets and recommended the ones I use now. They didn't recommend some $1,000 cryogenic masterpiece made from meteorite metal, just a better made outlet.
It did make a difference. I had a quieter background For $49, it was well worth trying, even if I didn't hear a huge difference.
John may want to try that along with his choice of a power center. This way he'd know the outlets aren't the weak link or contributing to a muddy system.
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Post by damoongo on Jun 30, 2024 8:17:50 GMT -6
I always use my own main outlets. They cost $49. Again, nothing crazy, but obviously more than the $2.39 ones you can get at the hardware store. I had some serious audiophile friends back in the day. They had tested a dozen different outlets and recommended the ones I use now. I’d love to see how they “tested” them …
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Post by prene1 on Jun 30, 2024 8:27:11 GMT -6
I run a server grade cyberpower UPS with all the Sinewave crap and all that to my power conditioners. I have a few and they’re networked around the home and studio for my gear and server. Never had issues. I do the same, help a ton in summer when brownouts are common. They're cheap to find on eBay from places that refurbish them after clearing out server rooms. Vertiv Liebert is the brand I use. Only problem is they're loud so you gotta swap the fan and put them in a machine room or isobox. Yikes. Unfortunately I’m in a condo and that’s not happening ( noise ). Now my next major investment is one of those huge ecoflow battery systems. I’m in south Florida and it’s storm season. Yikes.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2024 8:39:32 GMT -6
I do the same, help a ton in summer when brownouts are common. They're cheap to find on eBay from places that refurbish them after clearing out server rooms. Vertiv Liebert is the brand I use. Only problem is they're loud so you gotta swap the fan and put them in a machine room or isobox. Yikes. Unfortunately I’m in a condo and that’s not happening ( noise ). Now my next major investment is one of those huge ecoflow battery systems. I’m in south Florida and it’s storm season. Yikes. Genset time?
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Post by prene1 on Jun 30, 2024 8:40:18 GMT -6
Yikes. Unfortunately I’m in a condo and that’s not happening ( noise ). Now my next major investment is one of those huge ecoflow battery systems. I’m in south Florida and it’s storm season. Yikes. Genset time? I have no clue what genset time is.
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Post by Darren Boling on Jun 30, 2024 8:44:32 GMT -6
Yikes. Unfortunately I’m in a condo and that’s not happening ( noise ). Now my next major investment is one of those huge ecoflow battery systems. I’m in south Florida and it’s storm season. Yikes. I've quieted a 1500VA enough for my home setup, PM if you want more info.
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Post by prene1 on Jun 30, 2024 8:46:45 GMT -6
Yikes. Unfortunately I’m in a condo and that’s not happening ( noise ). Now my next major investment is one of those huge ecoflow battery systems. I’m in south Florida and it’s storm season. Yikes. I've quieted a 1500VA enough for my home setup, PM if you want more info. Oh I have one of those mine is super quiet. Only when the power goes off I have to shut off the loud alert. And by then it’s already quitting time which I have it set to do all that macro stuff for me.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2024 9:10:47 GMT -6
I have no clue what genset time is. Hurricane alley storm season, time for a generator 😁
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Post by prene1 on Jun 30, 2024 9:11:53 GMT -6
I have no clue what genset time is. Hurricane alley storm season, time for a generator 😁 Ohhhh. Yeah, but that’s why I want the battery with solar kit.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2024 9:18:20 GMT -6
Hurricane alley storm season, time for a generator 😁 Ohhhh. Yeah, but that’s why I want the battery with solar kit. Trust me after a storm your going to want the fridge & maybe the air conditioner working, short of a Tesla wall battery and solar are not going to buy you much time, a big generator raised off the ground using a crappy pickup as the fuel source is what you want. All the Generac dealers push the LP/ or natural gas but gas lines break during storms because of the flooding and most LP tanks get flooded as well.
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Post by prene1 on Jun 30, 2024 9:20:42 GMT -6
Ohhhh. Yeah, but that’s why I want the battery with solar kit. Trust me after a storm your going to want the fridge & maybe the air conditioner working, short of a Tesla wall battery and solar are not going to buy you much time, a big generator raised off the ground using a crappy pickup as the fuel source is what you want. All the Generac dealers push the LP/ or natural gas but gas lines break during storms because of the flooding and most LP tanks get flooded as well. On the highest floor of a condo in the suburbs around the “ bougie “ folks. None of that is happening 🤣🤣🤣
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 30, 2024 9:42:30 GMT -6
Trust me after a storm your going to want the fridge & maybe the air conditioner working, short of a Tesla wall battery and solar are not going to buy you much time, a big generator raised off the ground using a crappy pickup as the fuel source is what you want. All the Generac dealers push the LP/ or natural gas but gas lines break during storms because of the flooding and most LP tanks get flooded as well. On the highest floor of a condo in the suburbs around the “ bougie “ folks. None of that is happening 🤣🤣🤣 Yeah I forgot you were in a condo😁 funny story the first building we were in hear in KC had a huge back up generator, the problem was the city hand mounted all the transformers in this little man made valley at ground level and the generator was only raised about a foot, so any time it rained hard a transformer would blow and the generator would get flooded. After about 2 years the city raised the first transformer and the building owner raised the generator. We were told the problem was solved, well the problem was they didn’t raise the next 3 transformers in line, nobody realized our transformer acted as a fuse for the ones down the line and the fuel tank for our Massive Kohler generator that was now 4 feet off the ground was still below grade, so of course our transformer didn’t blow but the one a block away did acting as fuse and they ended up raising the tank after the 3rd time it got filled with water! Every year they raise one more transformer!
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 30, 2024 23:21:46 GMT -6
I always use my own main outlets. They cost $49. Again, nothing crazy, but obviously more than the $2.39 ones you can get at the hardware store. I had some serious audiophile friends back in the day. They had tested a dozen different outlets and recommended the ones I use now. I’d love to see how they “tested” them … No need for sarcasm here. Things like cabling have been controversial for decades. It would take 10-20 pages to explain the backgrounds and technical experience of the people I'm referring to, but believe me, they're as qualified to render an informed opinion as anyone. Besides, I trust my own ears anyway, and for $49 I heard enough of an improvement in the audio quality to make that small relatively inexpensive change well worth it.
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Post by rowmat on Jul 1, 2024 1:05:05 GMT -6
The issue with esoteric mains power outlets and power cords is what is on the other side of wall?
Something called a power grid composed of miles of non-esoteric cabling, connections, junctions, switches, fuses, breakers, transformers etc, etc.
Unless there are electrical issues in terms of high resistance limiting current flow or grounding problems etc. which are measurable electrical faults which should be diagnosed and rectified regardless, no amount of gold plated, carbon fibre, graphene enhanced mains cable will make one iota of audible difference to the sound.
It ain’t rocket science.
Hell it’s not even audio science.
It’s just wishful thinking.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 1, 2024 9:17:14 GMT -6
But Kansas IS a "No Fault" State. Right Eric? (Drops Mic) Chris
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Post by chessparov on Jul 1, 2024 9:21:50 GMT -6
I have no clue what genset time is. It's when the Baby Boomers leave the Club... To the younger Gen X'ers etc.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jul 1, 2024 9:30:33 GMT -6
But Kansas IS a "No Fault" State. Right Eric? (Drops Mic) Chris That’s why I’m in MO, but a little over a mile Away! As the bumper sticker says KCMO more city, less Kansas😁
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Post by damoongo on Jul 1, 2024 9:32:14 GMT -6
I’d love to see how they “tested” them … No need for sarcasm here. Things like cabling have been controversial for decades. It would take 10-20 pages to explain the backgrounds and technical experience of the people I'm referring to, but believe me, they're as qualified to render an informed opinion as anyone. Besides, I trust my own ears anyway, and for $49 I heard enough of an improvement in the audio quality to make that small relatively inexpensive change well worth it. That wasn't sarcasm. Genuinely curious if their methods had any validity. Myself, I just hard wire all my gear straight to the power pole outside my studio. I find the mains panel and the fuses add subtle coloration in the 70khz to 100khz range that really bums me out. Cheaper too, because you bypass the meter. (Now that is sarcasm)
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 1, 2024 12:47:59 GMT -6
No worries damoongo. The quotation marks made it seem like a sarcastic eye roll kind of comment. Without them it would seem like more of an inquiry. The people I had in mind have incredible credentials. One is a scientist/engineer, one is the editor of Stereophile magazine. One of them actually uses the scientific methods to test things, which is excruciatingly difficult to do, the other has the most discerning ears of anyone I've ever met, including some of the world's top producers. This was some decades ago, so I'm sorry I have no access to any more info to share.
All I know is when I changed my outlets to the ones they recommended, my system was a little less noisy. So for $49 I have peace of mind that my outlets are not the source of any audio issues. Who knows, maybe my outlets were old or grungy, whatever it was I was happy to try that simple change. Considering many of our pro audio systems cost well into five figures, I felt that for $49 it might be worth it for me to change my main outlet.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 1, 2024 13:22:38 GMT -6
I’ve experienced issues with power sockets too. My house had the cheapest power sockets known to man. They were barely functional. I’d get intermittent connection with a plug fully seated. Replaced them with “expensive” sockets (about $3-5 each) and it was a night and day difference. Like cables and a lot of other things, sockets can be so poorly made that it’s not really an issue of trying to “improve” something as it is an issue of getting something to work properly in the first place.
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Post by doubledog on Jul 1, 2024 14:22:49 GMT -6
I’ve experienced issues with power sockets too. My house had the cheapest power sockets known to man. They were barely functional. I’d get intermittent connection with a plug fully seated. Replaced them with “expensive” sockets (about $3-5 each) and it was a night and day difference. Like cables and a lot of other things, sockets can be so poorly made that it’s not really an issue of trying to “improve” something as it is an issue of getting something to work properly in the first place. I've had to replace almost every outlet in my home (which is 25 years old). Many of them just wore out. My brother's house is even worse (and much older). Plugs barely stay in (which is likely a fire hazard). It's definitely something that gets overlooked in a lot of places. I think even if you don't get "expensive" outlets, just having new outlets that properly connect power and ground reliably will probably be better than old outlets with loose, and possibly corroded contacts. And even if you go with the $2 outlets vs $5 or more, it's not a huge cost (for a studio sized project). If you know how to flip a breaker and turn a screwdriver, it can be even less expensive.
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Post by ragan on Jul 1, 2024 15:21:39 GMT -6
There is a fundamental difference between "this outlet sucks mechanically and I have intermittent continuity" and "this outlet improves the noise floor and sonics of my audio equipment".
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