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Post by basspro on Jun 27, 2024 12:39:16 GMT -6
I have an Apollo x8 that I initially had paired with a Heritage OST-8 ADAT, but after some issues, I'm thinking bout replacing with the Cranborne 500adat.
For anyone using this setup (or a similar setup), Is it possible to spread out something multi-mic'd across the different converters without phase issues? Would I need to always go into PT and delay certain tracks to get things to be phase coherent? If this is the case, I would rather not bother with the ADAT converters and just save for an additional Apollo. The last thing I want is to have to remember to add a time adjuster to previously recorded tracks
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Post by andersmv on Jun 27, 2024 13:56:02 GMT -6
If you enjoy things being easy and convenient, buy another Apollo  . You're always going to have phase issues when you try to spread them out between the Apollo and ADAT interface. It doesn't matter if it's drums or two vocal mics you're blending together, not going to happen. I've been running the same ADAT interface with my x8p for so long now (and almost always at 48k), I just figured out what the sample offset was between the two and compensate for it on the ADAT channels after each take. It's SUPER simple in ProTools when you get used to it, after a drum take I just highlight all of the ADAT tracks, hit ALT-H and bring up the "Shift" menu. In there, I type in the "sample" and tell it to shift earlier, and hit enter. After you do it the first time, it always has that same sample number in the sample window when you bring it up. After the first time, I just hit ALT-H and then Enter really quickly after each take. Ya, royal pain in the ass but honestly not that bad. I do the same thing with my analog tape machine. Sometime I want to overdub a vocal recorded to tape into a digital session. I just run the vocal right into the tape machine and record off the tape machine repro head into the DAW. I figured out what the sample offset was between the record and repro head at different sample rates, and do the same thing after each take. I hit ALT-H, type in the sample amount, and keep overdubbing. I've gotten used to it, not a bit deal. I still kick around the idea of just getting another Apollo at some point as it would make life easier... |
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Post by basspro on Jun 27, 2024 14:05:04 GMT -6
Yeah, that was kind of what I was expecting. Definitely not a terrible workaround, but when I'm in creative mode I hate having to stop (and remember) to do little things like this. The downside is that with my $1k credit, I still have to throw in $500 to get the Cranborne or $1800 for the Apollo (plus I would need to buy a new 500 rack).
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Post by andersmv on Jun 27, 2024 14:36:49 GMT -6
Yeah, that was kind of what I was expecting. Definitely not a terrible workaround, but when I'm in creative mode I hate having to stop (and remember) to do little things like this. The downside is that with my $1k credit, I still have to throw in $500 to get the Cranborne or $1800 for the Apollo (plus I would need to buy a new 500 rack). How much is that small amount of time/annoyance worth to you? I end up putting the money towards other gear every time I think about it, so here I am  |
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Post by doubledog on Jun 27, 2024 15:55:04 GMT -6
that is exactly why I ended up with the Apollo 16. I got tired of trying to calculate what the delay was (it made my head hurt - of course this was back on Pro Tools 9), got the Apollo 16 and never looked back.
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Post by shakermaker on Jun 29, 2024 16:13:17 GMT -6
If you enjoy things being easy and convenient, buy another Apollo . You're always going to have phase issues when you try to spread them out between the Apollo and ADAT interface. It doesn't matter if it's drums or two vocal mics you're blending together, not going to happen. I've been running the same ADAT interface with my x8p for so long now (and almost always at 48k), I just figured out what the sample offset was between the two and compensate for it on the ADAT channels after each take. It's SUPER simple in ProTools when you get used to it, after a drum take I just highlight all of the ADAT tracks, hit ALT-H and bring up the "Shift" menu. In there, I type in the "sample" and tell it to shift earlier, and hit enter. After you do it the first time, it always has that same sample number in the sample window when you bring it up. After the first time, I just hit ALT-H and then Enter really quickly after each take. Ya, royal pain in the ass but honestly not that bad. I do the same thing with my analog tape machine. Sometime I want to overdub a vocal recorded to tape into a digital session. I just run the vocal right into the tape machine and record off the tape machine repro head into the DAW. I figured out what the sample offset was between the record and repro head at different sample rates, and do the same thing after each take. I hit ALT-H, type in the sample amount, and keep overdubbing. I've gotten used to it, not a bit deal. I still kick around the idea of just getting another Apollo at some point as it would make life easier... Damn, I didn't realize there was an actual delay when using digital ins on the apollo I'm using a dangerous AD+ through the AES on my apollo x16. Should i be compensating for a delay on that? I've been over dubbing everything through it lately lol |
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Post by andersmv on Jun 29, 2024 16:33:31 GMT -6
I'm not sure about the AES, I've never used that on the Apollos. I would suspect there's going to be a bit of a difference. If you're recording drums, and you have your overheads going into the Apollo inputs and close mics running through ADAT, you're going to be met with some really small but annoying phase issues. The drums are going to sound hollow and lack punch, it's not fun. If you've got all your drum mics running into the Apollo, and your bass DI and electric guitar mic are playing with the drummer live running in via ADAT, you're not going to have any issues. If you try to do vocals with two microphones (let's say a ribbon to get some low end body and a really bright condenser to add some air) with one of them going into the Apollo and one of them going into the ADAT inputs, you're going to have a bad day. It really depends on what you're doing, the offset is SO small that it's not going to sound like the guitarist is playing out of time with the drummer, but it is going to sound pretty similar to something being out of phase when combining multi mic situations between interfaces.
If you want to test it and be kind of scientific about it (and figure out what your offset is), there's a lot of ways you can do it. If you have a splitter, just run a metronome out to the input of the Apollo and an input of the ADAT channel. Zoom in and look and see if they're lining up or not. If they're not, just highlight the space between them and see how many samples it is, that's how much you need to slide the ADAT tracks back at that specific sample rate.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2024 17:39:59 GMT -6
I'm not sure about the AES, I've never used that on the Apollos. I would suspect there's going to be a bit of a difference. If you're recording drums, and you have your overheads going into the Apollo inputs and close mics running through ADAT, you're going to be met with some really small but annoying phase issues. The drums are going to sound hollow and lack punch, it's not fun. If you've got all your drum mics running into the Apollo, and your bass DI and electric guitar mic are playing with the drummer live running in via ADAT, you're not going to have any issues. If you try to do vocals with two microphones (let's say a ribbon to get some low end body and a really bright condenser to add some air) with one of them going into the Apollo and one of them going into the ADAT inputs, you're going to have a bad day. It really depends on what you're doing, the offset is SO small that it's not going to sound like the guitarist is playing out of time with the drummer, but it is going to sound pretty similar to something being out of phase when combining multi mic situations between interfaces. If you want to test it and be kind of scientific about it (and figure out what your offset is), there's a lot of ways you can do it. If you have a splitter, just run a metronome out to the input of the Apollo and an input of the ADAT channel. Zoom in and look and see if they're lining up or not. If they're not, just highlight the space between them and see how many samples it is, that's how much you need to slide the ADAT tracks back at that specific sample rate. Any digital input will have latency, DAW’s and interfaces don’t operate on the I/O protocols. Thus it’s still an internal conversion from one digital language to another. |
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Post by andersmv on Jun 29, 2024 17:56:16 GMT -6
I'm not sure about the AES, I've never used that on the Apollos. I would suspect there's going to be a bit of a difference. If you're recording drums, and you have your overheads going into the Apollo inputs and close mics running through ADAT, you're going to be met with some really small but annoying phase issues. The drums are going to sound hollow and lack punch, it's not fun. If you've got all your drum mics running into the Apollo, and your bass DI and electric guitar mic are playing with the drummer live running in via ADAT, you're not going to have any issues. If you try to do vocals with two microphones (let's say a ribbon to get some low end body and a really bright condenser to add some air) with one of them going into the Apollo and one of them going into the ADAT inputs, you're going to have a bad day. It really depends on what you're doing, the offset is SO small that it's not going to sound like the guitarist is playing out of time with the drummer, but it is going to sound pretty similar to something being out of phase when combining multi mic situations between interfaces. If you want to test it and be kind of scientific about it (and figure out what your offset is), there's a lot of ways you can do it. If you have a splitter, just run a metronome out to the input of the Apollo and an input of the ADAT channel. Zoom in and look and see if they're lining up or not. If they're not, just highlight the space between them and see how many samples it is, that's how much you need to slide the ADAT tracks back at that specific sample rate. Any digital input will have latency, DAW’s and interfaces don’t operate on the I/O protocols. Thus it’s still an internal conversion from one digital language to another. I've not used the AES on the Apollo's, so I'm not going to comment on anything I don't know for sure/have not had experience with. You're probably right though. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 29, 2024 18:24:18 GMT -6
Any digital input will have latency, DAW’s and interfaces don’t operate on the I/O protocols. Thus it’s still an internal conversion from one digital language to another. I've not used the AES on the Apollo's, so I'm not going to comment on anything I don't know for sure/have not had experience with. You're probably right though. Well I’ll put it this simply if there is any on board DSP it is probably up sampling that is a digital to digital conversion or codec, ADAT is a different protocol than AES Dante is another in order to speak all these languages it needs to do an internal conversion, math = time. Simple laws of digital and computers. Really every one on this forum should go on Amazon and buy a copy of Principles in digital Audio, even SAVART, I’ll admit I have read it at least 10 times and learn something new every time. |
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Post by mrgkeys on Jun 29, 2024 21:07:35 GMT -6
I literally just tested this and on my rig its 12 samples for the Cranbourne ADAT -> x8 vs an x16 input @96k.
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Post by andersmv on Jun 29, 2024 22:52:11 GMT -6
I literally just tested this and on my rig its 12 samples for the Cranbourne ADAT -> x8 vs an x16 input @96k. Oh damn, that’s low. I think with my ADAT interface at 48k, it’s like 76 samples. Ill have to pull up some drum tracks tomorrow and nudge them 12 samples and see if I notice a difference. |
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Post by mrgkeys on Jun 30, 2024 0:39:34 GMT -6
that is with ARM on in LUNA. YMMV
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. You're always going to have phase issues when you try to spread them out between the Apollo and ADAT interface. It doesn't matter if it's drums or two vocal mics you're blending together, not going to happen. I've been running the same ADAT interface with my x8p for so long now (and almost always at 48k), I just figured out what the sample offset was between the two and compensate for it on the ADAT channels after each take. It's SUPER simple in ProTools when you get used to it, after a drum take I just highlight all of the ADAT tracks, hit ALT-H and bring up the "Shift" menu. In there, I type in the "sample" and tell it to shift earlier, and hit enter. After you do it the first time, it always has that same sample number in the sample window when you bring it up. After the first time, I just hit ALT-H and then Enter really quickly after each take.
