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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 25, 2024 18:08:39 GMT -6
Wondering what methods you use to pin a track in the background (in this case a somewhat ambient guitar) yet still have it relatively audible in the mix? I try to do this with verb or a high cut but either it’s still too upfront or not audible enough (if I put too much of either on it)…and in the case of verb, sounds too washed out. Is eq a big part of this?
Thanks
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Post by wiz on Jun 25, 2024 18:22:40 GMT -6
think about sound in the real world...
stuff that is in the distance... has less high end... is lower in volume.... and if in a space requires something to bounce off that gives the listerner an idea its how far away....
cheers
Wiz
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 25, 2024 18:36:36 GMT -6
Thanks wiz, appreciate the tips! Was thinking it might be good to give a reference as well, I’m looking at Riley Green - Damn Country Music. There’s an electric guitar up the middle at the 1st chorus, but it really kicks in on the turn just after. It sits back while still really occupying its space and yet present…like not this in your face lead. That’s the depth I’d love to achieve and then use automation to tuck it back further when needed.
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Post by wiz on Jun 25, 2024 19:21:56 GMT -6
So if this is the tune you are referring to....
Listen to the voice and acoustic on the RHS.... both are very in your face compared to the guitar slide in the back ground...and the drums....If you shut your eyes.. the drums sound like they are wayyyyy behind the vocalist. He sounds like he is almost singing in your ear.. and the acoustic guitar player is standing sort of next to him.. the drummer is behind them and the slide player even further back on the LHS a bit...
Keep what I said about top end being lost due to distance...and volume....
Also you need to create the right ambience if you are close mic ing stuff...
I used to (pre Bricasti) run 3 types of verb
A verb I used as a back wall... plate type....an ambience that is for up close eg vocals...and a hall type for the bloom...
By using the correct times and pre delay for those things you can create what you are looking for....
Reference your reverb time and pre delay to the tempo of the song....without Tolstoying the answer with pages of writing it's really hard to explain and very easy to demonstrate....in real life...
cheers
Wiz
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 25, 2024 19:27:02 GMT -6
Thanks man, I think I really need to learn a lot about using verb properly! I feel like that’s where I’m falling short right now (lots more I’m sure but that’s #1)
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 25, 2024 19:43:31 GMT -6
PS. wiz, since getting the Bricasti are you finding you only need to use one verb in standalone on tracks? |
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Post by smashlord on Jun 25, 2024 19:58:42 GMT -6
Filter it heavily and then make it an immovable object with either compression, saturation or both.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 26, 2024 6:29:49 GMT -6
^ then listen on multiple systems at multiple volumes….phone on a countertop, etc. Any one will lie to you, just like placing tambourine or shaker discretely.
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Post by niklas1073 on Jun 26, 2024 6:47:10 GMT -6
Ok, how i hear it. A lot is in the dynamics, the slide is saturated, thus very compressed and a decent amount of spring reverb. Since the rest of the instrumentation are rather dynamic instruments, the contrast comes forth. Then there is quite some riding work on the slide, it sort of comes and goes, almost washed out at times, maybe even a delay riding. The production is otherwise fairly dry and vox very central. The slide sort of creates the room in the song together with the twangy tremoloish guit on the right side balancing it up.
A nice reverb, slight delay and ride the shit outta that fader and you’ll get there.
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Post by wiz on Jun 26, 2024 6:49:27 GMT -6
PS. wiz, since getting the Bricasti are you finding you only need to use one verb in standalone on tracks? Hey No I still use multiple |
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Post by svart on Jun 26, 2024 6:52:27 GMT -6
Wondering what methods you use to pin a track in the background (in this case a somewhat ambient guitar) yet still have it relatively audible in the mix? I try to do this with verb or a high cut but either it’s still too upfront or not audible enough (if I put too much of either on it)…and in the case of verb, sounds too washed out. Is eq a big part of this? Thanks Less dynamics (compression, limiting) and then use ducking on the track so that it's louder when nothing else is in front of it, but drops by 3-6dB when something you want in front happens. Say like you want a LOT of reverb on the vocals, but the reverb washes out the vocals when they're happening. Put a compressor on the reverb and key/sidechain it from the vocal track so that when the vocal comes in, the reverb is brought down by 3 to 6dB. The reverb will sound loud but it won't interfere with the vocals so much anymore. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 26, 2024 7:04:26 GMT -6
Compress it with a slower release. Ideally you want two releases.
Honestly just use mjuc mk1, hq on, modes 5 or 6. In stereo if it’s stereo. Compress or limit. Dig in. Change the tone and distortion around.
Otherwise get out kotelnikov ge and set it to insane, rms release to be slower like 300ms to 1s or so, faster peak release to not hold down the transients, faster attack like 1-5 ms, pin it with threshold and peak crest and make sure it’s instantly switching from peak to rms release and staying in rms other than the transients. You’re pinning it down; you don’t want it to pump forward with the fast release.
You can use other stuff too. These just work unlike the typical awful emulations.
This is why compressors without program dependent release fail; they will either pump things around or hold them down for too long and and why older type compressors where you cannot choose where the slower release takes over and they’re not logarithmic usually so it will be wherever, can only take a certain amount off transparently based on your settings like the la whatever, ssl bus on auto, dbx 160 (program dependent release unintended from blackmer rms detector) etc. so here I gave two everyone has without weird licensing hurdles (waves, ik, ilok) or cost expense (Weiss, mdw). Good hardware that can do what kotelnikov can do and be adjustable will cost you thousands
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 27, 2024 21:47:17 GMT -6
Thanks so much y’all for such invaluable information. dan , so cool that vid, never looked at it that way. Another ‘go to’ thread bookmarked to reference while working (on weekends)! |
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Post by anders on Jun 29, 2024 7:37:45 GMT -6
I would add that there are some contrast elements making the background audibility happen in the song:
The background guitar line primarily lives in a different octave / the note choice differs from the voice and acc, giving the notes more of a separate harmonic range to exist in. Similarly, the acc guitar is sonically quite percussive, offering a contrast to the longer slide notes and the dynamic volume pedal work, helping it shine through the cracks and open spaces.
The slide guitar also seems to be gaining some extra weight from the hammond lurking behind it in the choruses.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 29, 2024 15:09:31 GMT -6
I produced music and voice overs for at least 100 radio and TV commercials in the mid-eighties. They required a perfect balance of voice-over volume to music. It's so much easier now with automation.
On the simplest level, a flatter vocal with only a little reverb sounds like it's up front. Place instruments a bit to the side for soundstaging. Add some more reverb to keep drums a bit further back. The obvious "trick" is to just get the volume levels right in the first place. That's not as easy as it sounds and takes some practice.
I prefer automation to using ducking or heavy compressing.
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