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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 16, 2024 23:51:37 GMT -6
I just picked up a pair of new Miktek C5s and I'm noticing some electronic static-y noise when I'm tracking anything quiet. I don't have a ton of expereince with SDC-style mics, but this is actually my second pair of C5s, and that first pair had this same issue. I have a few Oktava 012s, and those are all comparitively dead quiet using the same signal chain and settings. I can even crank the gain on the 012s and they're still more quiet than the C5s at the lower gain settings. I'm using a few different preamps as well, just to make sure it isn't related to a specific preamp or channel.
Miktek has been really helpful in the past - they serviced my first pair of C5s. But when I got them back, I heard the same static noise. I figured I'd try again, and just hoped I had an odd pair. But, this new second pair has the same issue.
Are SDC prone to being static-y? The noise I'm heaing isn't a white noise sound or a hiss. It sounds like little electrical pops, ticks and squeals, and they come and go randomly. Its almost like the crackling noise you'd hear on a vinyl record. Again, I have no issue with the Oktavas (or frankly any other mic in my locker), so I'm fairly certain its something related specifically to the C5s.
I'm wondering if there is something in my studio power that is not clean and its causing my issues. Going to try this new pair in a seperate remote location to see if my power is the issue.
Also, could this be a gain-staging issue? Could I be running my mics too hot? Again, I'm not hearing any of these issues with any of my other condensers (or dynamics or ribbons).
I'm really wanting to like the C5s, but its hard to get a good idea when I keep hearing this noise. The noise seems to get burried under drums for instance. But for quieter things, it can be heard. Also, even on drum passages, when you compress and distort, the noise gets correspondingly more apparent.
In general, for "noisy" mics, is there a way that people determine some sort of sonic cutoff of acceptable noise? Like, for instance, if you strum an acoustic guitar at 1ft away and the noise is negligble, that will be ok down the road when things are mixed and processed. You dig? I'm worried that if I stick with these C5s, and I track some things, I will shoot myself in the foot if the noise is too much.
Any ideas?
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 17, 2024 5:50:31 GMT -6
I just picked up a pair of new Miktek C5s and I'm noticing some electronic static-y noise when I'm tracking anything quiet. I don't have a ton of expereince with SDC-style mics, but this is actually my second pair of C5s, and that first pair had this same issue. I have a few Oktava 012s, and those are all comparitively dead quiet using the same signal chain and settings. I can even crank the gain on the 012s and they're still more quiet than the C5s at the lower gain settings. I'm using a few different preamps as well, just to make sure it isn't related to a specific preamp or channel. Miktek has been really helpful in the past - they serviced my first pair of C5s. But when I got them back, I heard the same static noise. I figured I'd try again, and just hoped I had an odd pair. But, this new second pair has the same issue. Are SDC prone to being static-y? The noise I'm heaing isn't a white noise sound or a hiss. It sounds like little electrical pops, ticks and squeals, and they come and go randomly. Its almost like the crackling noise you'd hear on a vinyl record. Again, I have no issue with the Oktavas (or frankly any other mic in my locker), so I'm fairly certain its something related specifically to the C5s. I'm wondering if there is something in my studio power that is not clean and its causing my issues. Going to try this new pair in a seperate remote location to see if my power is the issue. Also, could this be a gain-staging issue? Could I be running my mics too hot? Again, I'm not hearing any of these issues with any of my other condensers (or dynamics or ribbons). I'm really wanting to like the C5s, but its hard to get a good idea when I keep hearing this noise. The noise seems to get burried under drums for instance. But for quieter things, it can be heard. Also, even on drum passages, when you compress and distort, the noise gets correspondingly more apparent. In general, for "noisy" mics, is there a way that people determine some sort of sonic cutoff of acceptable noise? Like, for instance, if you strum an acoustic guitar at 1ft away and the noise is negligble, that will be ok down the road when things are mixed and processed. You dig? I'm worried that if I stick with these C5s, and I track some things, I will shoot myself in the foot if the noise is too much. Any ideas? It really comes down to what you can personally deal with, but if they were purchased new I would contact Mitek. A good manufacturer will be concerned and want to see if they are defective. |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 17, 2024 6:36:06 GMT -6
Thanks! Although, I'm pretty sure these aren't "defective" in the traditional sense. I guess I'm just not used to the noise of a SDC?
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Post by doubledog on Jun 17, 2024 6:54:28 GMT -6
if it's random clicks and pops, that can also be humidity (I definitely had mic do that in the past). do you have hygrometers in your studio (or space) to check humidity levels? Do you store your mics in sealed containers with silica gel packs? Even if you don't think it's too humid, mic capsules can be pretty sensitive to it. If you have some silica gel packs (that are new or recharged - if not they are cheap on Amazon) try putting the mics in a ziploc with those packs for a couple days and then see if anything changes? I was able to "revive" one mic I had but it doesn't always work if damage has set in.
and assuming you also ruled out cables, patchbays, etc. that could have intermittents or shorts due to bad connections.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 17, 2024 6:59:07 GMT -6
My C5s don’t do that, fwiw. I’d check mike’s suggestion above, and remember to rule out other possible gremlins.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 18, 2024 16:08:29 GMT -6
if it's random clicks and pops, that can also be humidity (I definitely had mic do that in the past). do you have hygrometers in your studio (or space) to check humidity levels? Do you store your mics in sealed containers with silica gel packs? Even if you don't think it's too humid, mic capsules can be pretty sensitive to it. If you have some silica gel packs (that are new or recharged - if not they are cheap on Amazon) try putting the mics in a ziploc with those packs for a couple days and then see if anything changes? I was able to "revive" one mic I had but it doesn't always work if damage has set in. and assuming you also ruled out cables, patchbays, etc. that could have intermittents or shorts due to bad connections. So, these mics were brand new, still in the plastic wrap. I store them (and all my condensers and sensitive mics) in a humidity-regulated and temperature-regulated electronics cabinet. None of my other mics (like the 012s) seem to be affected by these storage conditions. I will however try to desiccate the C5s a bit and see if it helps. Also will try them tonight on my remote-location mixing station. Totally different part of town with different electricity and different routing. Appreciate all the info and suggestions yall! |
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Post by doubledog on Jun 18, 2024 19:35:57 GMT -6
yeah, brand new you would hope that they aren't messed up by humidity already!
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 18, 2024 20:17:07 GMT -6
Update - these are DEAD quiet at my remote mixing location. There are no detectable pops or crackles or any sort of electronic noise even when going through a wide-open-to-the-max AML 1084. Tracked some acoustic guitar and it sounded glorious.
So, now I'm down to the differences between my locations. In both cases (my main recording space, and the remote mixing location) I'm running my power through SurgeX SX-1115 conditioners. Perhaps I need to up my power conditioning game? Maybe I have some bad lighting or similarly bad power at the recording space that is only affecting these C5s and none of my other mics?
The plan now is to take the AML 1084 and mic cable from my mixing location and use those in the recording space to see if that helps. Also, I will make sure the humidity in the studio is already down at a reasonable level before I setup the C5s. Then its onto the more difficult things to address....
Any suggestions??
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Post by doubledog on Jun 18, 2024 20:34:01 GMT -6
start with one of those cheap plug-in adapters that tell you if anything is wired wrong in your electrical outlets (they are under $10). If everything looks good and you still have pops, you may need to hire an electrician to help troubleshoot (unless you can do that stuff yourself). There is another recent thread here where gravesnumber9 was having some noisy electrical issues and I think went with a medical-grade power transformer/isolator? realgearonline.com/thread/16665/clicks-pops-brownouts-power-conditioner |
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Post by ab101 on Jun 18, 2024 21:09:59 GMT -6
I had a pair of C5s and loved them. But I guess you are already on to something, about them not having a problem at a different location.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 19, 2024 14:53:07 GMT -6
So, still hearing the clicks/pops/electronic noise in my tracking studio.
I spent the day eliminating all of the possible sources of interference that I could. I bypassed the patch bay and went direct to the preamps/interface. I re-routed singal through the patch bay. I took signal in and out of the patchbay, and routed it all around. I tried different cables, channels, mic positions, and then I iteratively turned off or unplugged every powered device in the studio. By then end, the only things that were powered up in the studio was the computer, the mouse, the keyboard, and the interface and preamp modules/500 rack. I even turned of the computer monitor during the troubleshooting. My phone was off and out of the room. Air conditioner was off. Mic cabnet/dry cabinet was off. Lights and excess power stips were off. I was in the stone age!
The fluorescent lighting that runs throughout my studio complex had to remain on for the benefit of the other residents of the studio, but I may try and come back at a later time to shut those off as well.
I ordered some special Neutrik EMI jacks and star-quad cable and will try and make a cable with those to cut down on the interference. I seem to recall that Miktek told me back in the day that this may solve the issue, but I never got around to trying it with the first pair of C5s. Going to DIY this one, as the prebuilt cables are like $100.
Thanks everybody for the suggestions and help!
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Post by doubledog on Jun 19, 2024 15:29:00 GMT -6
is it the same interface and all that at the studio vs remote? if not, did you try moving the interface around just to make sure its not picking something up from the computer or another device (based on where its positioned)? sounds like you have eliminated a lot of possibilities already.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 19, 2024 16:11:03 GMT -6
Good call! I didn't think the interface would be the issue, but, they are both Apogee Symphony units. Unfortunately, the tracking studio can't really be reconfigured too much, so even if moving the interface would fix the problem, it would create too many new ones.
I'm hoping this EMI-shielded cable does the job! Otherwise, I may just return these C5s and accept that they just won't work in my tracking room, for whatever reason.
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 19, 2024 17:16:49 GMT -6
Check the cables and any snake first! Move them around it could be intermittent short or connector, I doubt a power conditioner is going to be the issue.
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 22, 2024 8:42:44 GMT -6
Thanks all! I've checked all the cables, and removed any snakes that I can, but I still need at least one DB25-XLR cable in there. I've tried multiple snakes and multiple XLR in my mic-XLR-preamp-snake-interface chain. My Symphony interface only has the DB25 connectors, so at some point, I do need a breakout option. I'm planning on swapping out my typical 8-channel snake for a custom 2-channel DB25-XLR snake, just to eliminate that possibility as ericn has suggested. That custom snake is very high quality, so, as far as snakes go, thats my best option.
I also just took delivery of a Star-Quad XLR cable, and also some parts to assemble a separate Star-Quad cable with the Neutrik EMI jack. Hopefully I will be soldering later today, and can test both cable options this evening.
I also retried the C5s back at my separate mixing location, and they are still dead quiet there. Man, I though dealing with wierd buzzes and rattles in drums was frustrating. At least you can gaff tape those away 90% of the time. Pro Audio strikes again!
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jun 22, 2024 10:22:53 GMT -6
Thanks all! I've checked all the cables, and removed any snakes that I can, but I still need at least one DB25-XLR cable in there. I've tried multiple snakes and multiple XLR in my mic-XLR-preamp-snake-interface chain. My Symphony interface only has the DB25 connectors, so at some point, I do need a breakout option. I'm planning on swapping out my typical 8-channel snake for a custom 2-channel DB25-XLR snake, just to eliminate that possibility as ericn has suggested. That custom snake is very high quality, so, as far as snakes go, thats my best option. I also just took delivery of a Star-Quad XLR cable, and also some parts to assemble a separate Star-Quad cable with the Neutrik EMI jack. Hopefully I will be soldering later today, and can test both cable options this evening. I also retried the C5s back at my separate mixing location, and they are still dead quiet there. Man, I though dealing with wierd buzzes and rattles in drums was frustrating. At least you can gaff tape those away 90% of the time. Pro Audio strikes again! Old road warrior joke: you know why they call it a snake? Because it bites you in the ass every time😁 |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 22, 2024 20:17:30 GMT -6
So, we may have a winner!!
I tested two new mic cables. One is a generic Canare StarQuad L-4E6S cable with Amphenol XLRs. That helped slightly versus whatever other XLR cables I was using. I’d say it cut down the static and crackle by maybe 30%. A noticeable difference, but I could still hear the noise.
But, the Canare L-4E6S with a standard Neutrik Male XLR and special Neutrik NC3FXX-EMC on the female end…..this seemed like it totally fixed the issue. I ran two separate tests and it seemed quiet both times. I swapped back in my regular XLR cables and the noise was back! Swapped in the EMC-StarQuad…noise was gone again!
I will really try to test these out much more in the next few days. But, as shocking as it may seem, this combo may be the way to go, at least for me.
Miktek did suggest this a while back, but the assembled cables are quite expensive (~$100 per cable, all in). Now that my DIY chops are significantly improved, I built this cable myself for about 10% of the pre-assembled price. Back during my first C5 experiment, I didn’t want to sink another $100 plus into a cable gamble. Perhaps I should have….
In any case, I’m back into the studio tomorrow for more tests! I will post any new updates. Thanks to everyone that chimed in so far!!
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shawnh
Junior Member
Posts: 59
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Post by shawnh on Jun 23, 2024 6:18:32 GMT -6
I had the exact same issue with those mics. You are a better man than me when it comes to troubleshooting. I just moved on. I have other SDCs that don’t give me problems.
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Post by doubledog on Jun 23, 2024 7:34:37 GMT -6
So, we may have a winner!! I tested two new mic cables. One is a generic Canare StarQuad L-4E6S cable with Amphenol XLRs. That helped slightly versus whatever other XLR cables I was using. I’d say it cut down the static and crackle by maybe 30%. A noticeable difference, but I could still hear the noise. But, the Canare L-4E6S with a standard Neutrik Male XLR and special Neutrik NC3FXX-EMC on the female end…..this seemed like it totally fixed the issue. I ran two separate tests and it seemed quiet both times. I swapped back in my regular XLR cables and the noise was back! Swapped in the EMC-StarQuad…noise was gone again! I will really try to test these out much more in the next few days. But, as shocking as it may seem, this combo may be the way to go, at least for me. Miktek did suggest this a while back, but the assembled cables are quite expensive (~$100 per cable, all in). Now that my DIY chops are significantly improved, I built this cable myself for about 10% of the pre-assembled price. Back during my first C5 experiment, I didn’t want to sink another $100 plus into a cable gamble. Perhaps I should have…. In any case, I’m back into the studio tomorrow for more tests! I will post any new updates. Thanks to everyone that chimed in so far!! you might want to check the solder connections on your "old" cables vs. your new cables. Some cables will tie the connector shield to ground and some won't. Some will tie only on one side (and hopefully that is the side that is closest to your interface so that it is "grounded" at that end). So, depending on how you soldered your new cables, that may be a difference as well. In most cases, it won't matter, but after I looked at a bunch of manufactured cables, I found differences in all of mine. And in some cases, this can make a ground loop that 1 out of 99 pieces of equipment will have a problem with.... So you may have to experiment with connector/shield grounded or not (I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way - whatever works for your gear). |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 23, 2024 9:44:55 GMT -6
So, we may have a winner!! I tested two new mic cables. One is a generic Canare StarQuad L-4E6S cable with Amphenol XLRs. That helped slightly versus whatever other XLR cables I was using. I’d say it cut down the static and crackle by maybe 30%. A noticeable difference, but I could still hear the noise. But, the Canare L-4E6S with a standard Neutrik Male XLR and special Neutrik NC3FXX-EMC on the female end…..this seemed like it totally fixed the issue. I ran two separate tests and it seemed quiet both times. I swapped back in my regular XLR cables and the noise was back! Swapped in the EMC-StarQuad…noise was gone again! I will really try to test these out much more in the next few days. But, as shocking as it may seem, this combo may be the way to go, at least for me. Miktek did suggest this a while back, but the assembled cables are quite expensive (~$100 per cable, all in). Now that my DIY chops are significantly improved, I built this cable myself for about 10% of the pre-assembled price. Back during my first C5 experiment, I didn’t want to sink another $100 plus into a cable gamble. Perhaps I should have…. In any case, I’m back into the studio tomorrow for more tests! I will post any new updates. Thanks to everyone that chimed in so far!! you might want to check the solder connections on your "old" cables vs. your new cables. Some cables will tie the connector shield to ground and some won't. Some will tie only on one side (and hopefully that is the side that is closest to your interface so that it is "grounded" at that end). So, depending on how you soldered your new cables, that may be a difference as well. In most cases, it won't matter, but after I looked at a bunch of manufactured cables, I found differences in all of mine. And in some cases, this can make a ground loop that 1 out of 99 pieces of equipment will have a problem with.... So you may have to experiment with connector/shield grounded or not (I'm not saying there is a right or wrong way - whatever works for your gear). All great ideas and advice! I did check those things, and I may have forgotten to include previously that I swapped out many XLRs from both locations (tracking and mixing). The mics were always quiet in my remote mixing location, even using cables that were “noisy” in the tracking location. I have a variety of cables in my studio, as I’m sure most people do. For whatever reason, any make/model/build always gave the noise. Just this new EMI Star Quad cable seems to work. In talking with Miktek, they believed it may have had something to do with the 5G rollout from a few years ago. While most people never heard these crackles and artifacts, some of us clearly did (like shawnh from above). Electricity is a weird thing! |
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Post by eyebytwomuchgeer on Jun 23, 2024 12:19:59 GMT -6
Perhaps some even more interesting data... If you take a regular cable and plug that into the C5, and then take the male end and extend it with the EMI-StarQuad cable, there is still interference and noise. So, basically, I'm seeing if a regular mic cable can be extended by a "patch" EMI-StarQuad cable as such:
Mic-regular cable-EMI cable-preamp-interface. This is still noisy.
However, if you place the female EMI-starquad into the C5, and then extend that cable with a standard mic cable, it seems as if the electronic interference and crackle noise is still eliminated. So it would seem, at least in my setup/room, that the EMI female jack needs to be directly in the mic.
So in this case, its Mic-EMI cable-regular cable-preamp-interface. This seems just as quiet as the EMI cable alone. Still need to let it test for a while.
But, it DOES appear that the EMI Female end-Canare StarQuad is trending towards a viable solution, at least for me.
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