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Post by FM77 on Jun 9, 2024 6:35:39 GMT -6
All speakers lie, compare the distortion specs of even ATC to just about anything else in your signal chain. For the most part we concentrate on what ever aspect we can correct. Even dispersion is unrealistic, reality would be Omni, but true Omni radiation’s make ATC look dirt cheap. Think of all those great records mixed on NS10’s probably one of the worst speakers ever, look at the distortion and phase response. When everyone had to have NS10’s none of the large studios ever said “ these things are great” it was always “ their cheap”. Yet once you learned them you could work with them. Even the Altec / Urei’s you had to learn them. Hey I get it. What I’m saying is “knowing” speakers takes years. It takes countless trips to the car. Countless disappointing walks back to the studio, etc. You basically learned to apply room eq while mixing. I’m just trying to say - if a set of speaker can get you closer to that…or room correction get you closer to that, IT is doing the job now of correction and you’re free to mix like you want it to sound in the room.
I understand what you are saying, and I am a firm believer in room correction software and have always used it because of the rooms I have. Outside of Trinnovs phase correction, it is still little more room eq. A pre-chosen EQ that will really only correct speaker response in the mix position (or chosen position) Taking a rough average across the entire mix area to give us (sometimes rather excessive) EQ adjustments to compensate for room nodes.
It removes some of the room, from the speaker position you used to shoot the room...in that room. It doesn't help us learn our speakers. It merely helps the process of 'learning your speakers in that room' with less anomalies. What we need is listen time. Listening to other music and mixes, hours and hours and hours. There is no substitute for that. Which is is why guest engineers or freelance engineers always took their own set of speakers. Even to this day, many do.
In my observation, people tend and talk about and notice the most drastic difference in room correction, once applied to speakers and mixes they already knew with those speaker.
I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Kinda goes without saying  And it applies to all gear and all musical instruments to. Better an old friend you know well than something new you haven’t used before. In conversations about green grass, it never goes without saying, which is why it is said so often.
It is a fundamental truth and grandfather wisdom. Fundamentals are often drowned out by the din and the promise of something better.
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Post by FM77 on Jun 9, 2024 6:59:51 GMT -6
BTW - in case it isn't self evident. I am not suggesting all gear is created equally and it is merely a matter of familiarity.
I am only supporting the idea that you can get the best results from knowing your gear. There is no substitute for that.
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Post by mcirish on Jun 9, 2024 7:03:19 GMT -6
I personally don't believe the "know your speakers" sentiment. That wasn't enough for me to get mixes that translate. Some people can trick their brain into learning where the dips and peaks are. I couldn't.
I would rather have good speakers in a well treated room WITH room correction software than great speakers that I have to "Learn" with no room correction software. I just couldn't do it. My room just isn't good enough. I have a ton of treatment but nothing can solve the issues of a smaller room.
The best thing I ever bought was room correction software. That was way more important than the monitors... For me.
Granted; I do have great speakers now but if I turn off the room correction, I'm lost.
To each his own. I just could not learn my bad room.
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Post by FM77 on Jun 9, 2024 7:54:29 GMT -6
I personally don't believe the "know your speakers" sentiment. That wasn't enough for me to get mixes that translate. Some people can trick their brain into learning where the dips and peaks are. I couldn't. I would rather have good speakers in a well treated room WITH room correction software than great speakers that I have to "Learn" with no room correction software. I just couldn't do it. My room just isn't good enough. I have a ton of treatment but nothing can solve the issues of a smaller room. The best thing I ever bought was room correction software. That was way more important than the monitors... For me. Granted; I do have great speakers now but if I turn off the room correction, I'm lost. To each his own. I just could not learn my bad room. I think it is probably safe to say that most would appreciate learning our gear in well treated rooms with (possibly) room correction EQ applied at the mix position. I know that I do. Though I don't find Eric's statement a sentiment as is it speaking to decades of empirical evidence. Its just the nature of the process. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 9, 2024 9:34:15 GMT -6
Hey I get it. What I’m saying is “knowing” speakers takes years. It takes countless trips to the car. Countless disappointing walks back to the studio, etc. You basically learned to apply room eq while mixing. I’m just trying to say - if a set of speaker can get you closer to that…or room correction get you closer to that, IT is doing the job now of correction and you’re free to mix like you want it to sound in the room. This is actually a really good lesson for me to hear…I thought I was the only one! I’ve got reasonable monitors (LYD48’s), hope to upgrade to ATC someday. Also have the room treated appropriately for first reflections and bass traps…even did a home renovation for as ideal a room as i can get in a basement. But…still some issues. So I got the IK ARC Studio and what a difference, translation is soooo much better. Mix decisions are so much more on point now! And THAT is why room correction makes a difference imo. I don’t have to make cognitively dissonant decisions. “I want my Kick to sound like a cannon, so - because I know my room has a huge bloom at 60hz, I’m going to counter-intuitively drop the kick by -10 db. Sounds great!” I just don’t understand how that’s a tenable way to mix. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 9, 2024 9:36:03 GMT -6
I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Kinda goes without saying And it applies to all gear and all musical instruments to. Better an old friend you know well than something new you haven’t used before. Totally agree. That’s a given. Something you have experience with is going to give you better results to begin with… |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 9, 2024 9:38:57 GMT -6
I personally don't believe the "know your speakers" sentiment. That wasn't enough for me to get mixes that translate. Some people can trick their brain into learning where the dips and peaks are. I couldn't. I would rather have good speakers in a well treated room WITH room correction software than great speakers that I have to "Learn" with no room correction software. I just couldn't do it. My room just isn't good enough. I have a ton of treatment but nothing can solve the issues of a smaller room. The best thing I ever bought was room correction software. That was way more important than the monitors... For me. Granted; I do have great speakers now but if I turn off the room correction, I'm lost. To each his own. I just could not learn my bad room. This a thousand times. You expressed it better than I did. |
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Post by robo on Jun 9, 2024 10:16:00 GMT -6
Kinda goes without saying And it applies to all gear and all musical instruments to. Better an old friend you know well than something new you haven’t used before. Totally agree. That’s a given. Something you have experience with is going to give you better results to begin with… When I started out, I mixed through the consumer-grade shelf speakers I had listened to for countless hours growing up. Listening back, that stuff actually translates quite well. Of course, that was through tape so I didn’t have deep subs get me in trouble. Also, low track count... But still, the point is there. |
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Post by robo on Jun 9, 2024 10:18:47 GMT -6
Part two of my point: I think modern slammed productions with unlimited track count and endless bandwidth is a lot of the reason why monitoring and room treatment are so essential right now.
You have to hear every tiny nuance in order to cram everything in there.
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Post by Dan on Jun 9, 2024 12:41:22 GMT -6
Part two of my point: I think modern slammed productions with unlimited track count and endless bandwidth is a lot of the reason why monitoring and room treatment are so essential right now. You have to hear every tiny nuance in order to cram everything in there. And make everything sound like shit. That’s what they want. For it to sound like shit. |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 9, 2024 13:14:14 GMT -6
Part two of my point: I think modern slammed productions with unlimited track count and endless bandwidth is a lot of the reason why monitoring and room treatment are so essential right now. You have to hear every tiny nuance in order to cram everything in there. And make everything sound like shit. That’s what they want. For it to sound like shit.
LOL. It's the same over stimulated shit over and over. It seems like a new benchmark. I could not recognize anybody signature production style right now. So much of it just sounds the like the same brick wall hitting my senses. I feel like I am being yelled at all the time. I miss the Rubins, Langes, Lanois, Rabins and Horns of the 80s and 90's. Even the plastic, harsh early days of digital you could still feel the organic energy in the production. Now get off my analog lawn.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 9, 2024 14:57:51 GMT -6
I do miss the Memphis Horns. Wouldn't mind a "Hope Lange" type either.  Chris |
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Post by viciousbliss on Jun 9, 2024 15:45:41 GMT -6
I've read interviews with people who worked on NS-10s about 40 years ago. If I remember correctly, they said it was very difficult to hear anything accurately back then. And one day someone tried the NS-10s and the idea was "if you can make it sound good on NS-10s, it would sound good on anything". If your stuff translates well on crappy $10 anemic computer speakers and car stereos does that mean it's correct? All I've ever done is trial and error. If something enabled my stuff to translate onto my consumer gear, I kept it as part of the chain. Anyone hear ever work on a K701 headphone? I find that if something sounds a certain way on the K701 into the Aurora N that it will sound that way on the consumer gear too. What was more pronounced on the car stereo was the separation between elements. I have a tendency to get too balanced at times. So, I went back and did a little less LF cut with Cedar Adaptive Limiter 2. It's not like it sounded bad with more separation, just less musical than I wanted. I've never tried to make one of these super-smashed DR4-DR6 mixes or masters, so I'm not sure what changes when you reduce the dynamics that much.
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Post by phantom on Jun 10, 2024 9:27:23 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 10, 2024 9:57:48 GMT -6
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 10, 2024 9:59:14 GMT -6
Who’s in charge when someone pays you to mix?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 10, 2024 10:02:44 GMT -6
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083 
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2024 10:31:24 GMT -6
The key is “ I know my speakers “. think part of this is we are talking about a guy who came up moving from room to room, this requires you to learn the monitors & the room quickly, nobody is going to pay you to take a day to learn it. As far as his anti room correction, well it’s a theory based on what he hears. I’ll add I have always said there are speakers room correction just doesn’t work & Real Tannoys while having a certain sound that works for some sound completely different with correction. I’m not a huge Tannoy fan, I have had a couple of pairs over the years and I can see if you love the personality not wanting room correction, the natural frequency response and phase response is a lot of what Tannoy lovers want. He knows what works for him, he likes to work this way and it’s really fing hard to argue with his track record. There have always been those who argue that is mix room should sound like a room someone is going to consume the mix in, of course the counter to this is every room is going to have different problems so how is that supposed to work? Plus today if we extend that theory out we should be mixing on earbuds and soundbars. It works for him that is the bottom line, he is just trying to explain why it works for him, if it counters what works for you, well who cares? It works for you. The main argument against everyone following the same rules, the Beatles, up until the Beatles Abby Road was all about this is the Abby Road way. |
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Post by phantom on Jun 10, 2024 10:53:01 GMT -6
Relax, boy. Look who's also here doing an Arc Studio ad: |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 10, 2024 10:57:02 GMT -6
Relax, boy. Look who's also here doing an Arc Studio ad: I’m completely relaxed. If he says he knows his monitors, the. More power to him. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 10, 2024 10:59:05 GMT -6
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Post by phantom on Jun 10, 2024 11:04:53 GMT -6
LOL. Exactly. I just want to say that I agree with Andrew and with Andrew. Both valid perspectives, lol. |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,083
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2024 11:10:54 GMT -6
Relax, boy. Look who's also here doing an Arc Studio ad: Hey we will give you one if you say nice things! |
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Jun 11, 2024 21:56:11 GMT -6
The Trinnov Nova has been a huge upgrade. The software is a battle (doesn't find the Nova even booted up at first, then quit and restart and never remembers last settings even though they're set so you have to click the mouse up from -60db.) but in any room, it's going to change the translation in a giant way.
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Post by Oneiro on Jun 11, 2024 22:17:30 GMT -6
I guess I’m not super precious.
I’ve been in a lot of rooms and sort of got on with it, reacting more or less conservatively depending on how messed up things appeared to be. At some point, I at least know that the source is sounding good and the microphone is functional in front of it. And then if there are typical EQs there, I have a sense of the manner in which I am fucking up the sound.
The key to me is to have a place and a space you can work in for years as a reference point. A place where you can perform surgery for a predictable result if needed because you’ve listened to tons of records there.
If you’ve ever been in a well done mastering room, you start to realize that everything is just a decision and correct is less important than compelling and cohesive.
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