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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 8, 2024 9:39:11 GMT -6
(This=my recent foray into having to try new monitors) That absolutely nothing in the studio is as important as the room and monitors. If you can’t properly hear what you are truly doing, nothing else matters. No Fairchild, U47, 251, Magic Death Eye…none of it matters if you can’t hear what they’re truly doing.
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Post by lowlou on Jun 8, 2024 10:08:56 GMT -6
(Dan Clark Audio E3 & Stealth enter the room)
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 8, 2024 10:17:07 GMT -6
(This=my recent foray into having to try new monitors) That absolutely nothing in the studio is as important as the room and monitors. If you can’t properly hear what you are truly doing, nothing else matters. No Fairchild, U47, 251, Magic Death Eye…none of it matters if you can’t hear what they’re truly doing. +1 Monitors, Monitor controller D/A, room treatment. Not the most exciting, but the most important. |
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Post by FM77 on Jun 8, 2024 10:29:35 GMT -6
Know your room, know your gear.
Everything else is everything else. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 8, 2024 10:41:44 GMT -6
Yep and don’t believe anyone who says good enough. They can monitor off of truncated audio -> thousands of degrees of phase shift -> jrc4580 high frequency garbage -> junk monitors with tons of resonances, crossover dips and low headroom.
The standard reliable measurements of speakers going back decades are from stereophile and soundandrecording.de not histrionic biased websites like audiosciencereview who trash ATC and praised Rokits to sell stuff the owner has a hookup on. And this does not determine utility, just resonances and headroom and frequency response. Something can measure okay but have no detail and be absolutely useless like… barefoots and most genelecs and some of the older focals muddier than dirt.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2024 10:42:43 GMT -6
A guy who knows a pair of Alesis M1’s will deliver better results than someone in front of a pair of ATC 300’s almost every time.
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Post by nomatic on Jun 8, 2024 10:45:38 GMT -6
yep
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Post by phantom on Jun 8, 2024 10:48:53 GMT -6
A guy who knows a pair of Alesis M1’s will deliver better results than someone in front of a pair of ATC 300’s almost every time. I absolutely agree. You got to know your monitors. Experience. Then it'll translate everywhere. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 8, 2024 10:53:16 GMT -6
A guy who knows a pair of Alesis M1’s will deliver better results than someone in front of a pair of ATC 300’s almost every time. any sort of mains and large impressive sounding speakers are mostly useless ime. |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 8, 2024 11:52:55 GMT -6
Other than Tony Robbins? (6 foot 6 inches  ) |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 8, 2024 12:00:10 GMT -6
A "Mix Off" between Speakers and the Slate VSX thingie...
Would be interesting to Grasshopper here.
I wonder how close the Speakers could get to the Headphones?
LOL!
Chris
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Post by Dan on Jun 8, 2024 12:25:40 GMT -6
A "Mix Off" between Speakers and the Slate VSX thingie... Would be interesting to Grasshopper here. I wonder how close the Speakers could get to the Headphones? LOL! Chris Headphones physically break up from having own driver and cannot have true stereo imaging, just various crossfeed schemes. You cannot hear what is physically not being reproduced. Mixes done with only headphones tend to be severely compromised. Do not believe any celebrity mixer or masterer bullshit. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 8, 2024 12:51:13 GMT -6
A guy who knows a pair of Alesis M1’s will deliver better results than someone in front of a pair of ATC 300’s almost every time. That makes no sense to me. If the same guy was sat in front of ATC 300's .... you're saying he wouldn't produce better results than when he sat in front of Alesis M1's? That's the exact opposite sentiment to the whole thread. Or if your saying a guy who knows a pair of Alesis M'1s will produce better results than an novice sat in front of ATC 300's .... well yeah - kinda goes without saying. Maybe I missed your point .... it's very possible  |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 8, 2024 12:56:49 GMT -6
Thanks Dan. But... I_want_to believe.  |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2024 13:15:24 GMT -6
A guy who knows a pair of Alesis M1’s will deliver better results than someone in front of a pair of ATC 300’s almost every time. That makes no sense to me. If the same guy was sat in front of ATC 300's .... you're saying he wouldn't produce better results than when he sat in front of Alesis M1's? That's the exact opposite sentiment to the whole thread. Or if your saying a guy who knows a pair of Alesis M'1s will produce better results than an novice sat in front of ATC 300's .... well yeah - kinda goes without saying. Maybe I missed your point .... it's very possible I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Professionals don’t listen to speakers, they listen through speakers. |
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Post by Ward on Jun 8, 2024 17:15:44 GMT -6
A "Mix Off" between Speakers and the Slate VSX thingie... Would be interesting to Grasshopper here. I wonder how close the Speakers could get to the Headphones? LOL! Chris Mix on . . . Mix off . . . . Mix on, Mix off, the Mixer . |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 8, 2024 18:54:14 GMT -6
That makes no sense to me. If the same guy was sat in front of ATC 300's .... you're saying he wouldn't produce better results than when he sat in front of Alesis M1's? That's the exact opposite sentiment to the whole thread. Or if your saying a guy who knows a pair of Alesis M'1s will produce better results than an novice sat in front of ATC 300's .... well yeah - kinda goes without saying. Maybe I missed your point .... it's very possible I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Professionals don’t listen to speakers, they listen through speakers. So what’s the point in any room correction or room treatment? Just “know your speakers.” I don’t want to know my speakers if all they do is lie to me. Someone else can know them. Tell me the truth and I will TRUST my speakers. |
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Post by wiz on Jun 8, 2024 19:11:07 GMT -6
I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Professionals don’t listen to speakers, they listen through speakers. So what’s the point in any room correction or room treatment? Just “know your speakers.” I don’t want to know my speakers if all they do is lie to me. Someone else can know them. Tell me the truth and I will TRUST my speakers. So, are you saying even with shooting the room with them and using TRINNOV they were unworkable... I always wondered about that.... using two different sets of monitors after calibrating them each in Sound works, how different they would be cheers Wiz |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2024 19:46:00 GMT -6
I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Professionals don’t listen to speakers, they listen through speakers. So what’s the point in any room correction or room treatment? Just “know your speakers.” I don’t want to know my speakers if all they do is lie to me. Someone else can know them. Tell me the truth and I will TRUST my speakers. All speakers lie, compare the distortion specs of even ATC to just about anything else in your signal chain. For the most part we concentrate on what ever aspect we can correct. Even dispersion is unrealistic, reality would be Omni, but true Omni radiation’s make ATC look dirt cheap. Think of all those great records mixed on NS10’s probably one of the worst speakers ever, look at the distortion and phase response. When everyone had to have NS10’s none of the large studios ever said “ these things are great” it was always “ their cheap”. Yet once you learned them you could work with them. Even the Altec / Urei’s you had to learn them. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 8, 2024 20:04:38 GMT -6
So what’s the point in any room correction or room treatment? Just “know your speakers.” I don’t want to know my speakers if all they do is lie to me. Someone else can know them. Tell me the truth and I will TRUST my speakers. All speakers lie, compare the distortion specs of even ATC to just about anything else in your signal chain. For the most part we concentrate on what ever aspect we can correct. Even dispersion is unrealistic, reality would be Omni, but true Omni radiation’s make ATC look dirt cheap. Think of all those great records mixed on NS10’s probably one of the worst speakers ever, look at the distortion and phase response. When everyone had to have NS10’s none of the large studios ever said “ these things are great” it was always “ their cheap”. Yet once you learned them you could work with them. Even the Altec / Urei’s you had to learn them. Hey I get it. What I’m saying is “knowing” speakers takes years. It takes countless trips to the car. Countless disappointing walks back to the studio, etc. You basically learned to apply room eq while mixing. I’m just trying to say - if a set of speaker can get you closer to that…or room correction get you closer to that, IT is doing the job now of correction and you’re free to mix like you want it to sound in the room. |
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 8, 2024 20:14:09 GMT -6
All speakers lie, compare the distortion specs of even ATC to just about anything else in your signal chain. For the most part we concentrate on what ever aspect we can correct. Even dispersion is unrealistic, reality would be Omni, but true Omni radiation’s make ATC look dirt cheap. Think of all those great records mixed on NS10’s probably one of the worst speakers ever, look at the distortion and phase response. When everyone had to have NS10’s none of the large studios ever said “ these things are great” it was always “ their cheap”. Yet once you learned them you could work with them. Even the Altec / Urei’s you had to learn them. Hey I get it. What I’m saying is “knowing” speakers takes years. It takes countless trips to the car. Countless disappointing walks back to the studio, etc. You basically learned to apply room eq while mixing. I’m just trying to say - if a set of speaker can get you closer to that…or room correction get you closer to that, IT is doing the job now of correction and you’re free to mix like you want it to sound in the room. This is actually a really good lesson for me to hear…I thought I was the only one! I’ve got reasonable monitors (LYD48’s), hope to upgrade to ATC someday. Also have the room treated appropriately for first reflections and bass traps…even did a home renovation for as ideal a room as i can get in a basement. But…still some issues. So I got the IK ARC Studio and what a difference, translation is soooo much better. Mix decisions are so much more on point now! |
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Post by phantom on Jun 8, 2024 20:16:19 GMT -6
I don't think that any monitor will give me the truth nothing more than the truth. I also don't think that flat is the closest thing to most of the places the song will be played. Maybe NS10s was so good for some because they were almost as bad as the speakers people would listen on their homes.
I think that it gets to a point, that knowing how a room sounds with a certain speaker worth so much more than spending thousands to get the new shiny speaker on the block.
But yeah, I do have a treated room that I've put a lot of work on and I also use room correction. In my opinion it was easier for to learn and understand the room and the speaker this way.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 8, 2024 20:29:45 GMT -6
All speakers lie, compare the distortion specs of even ATC to just about anything else in your signal chain. For the most part we concentrate on what ever aspect we can correct. Even dispersion is unrealistic, reality would be Omni, but true Omni radiation’s make ATC look dirt cheap. Think of all those great records mixed on NS10’s probably one of the worst speakers ever, look at the distortion and phase response. When everyone had to have NS10’s none of the large studios ever said “ these things are great” it was always “ their cheap”. Yet once you learned them you could work with them. Even the Altec / Urei’s you had to learn them. Hey I get it. What I’m saying is “knowing” speakers takes years. It takes countless trips to the car. Countless disappointing walks back to the studio, etc. You basically learned to apply room eq while mixing. I’m just trying to say - if a set of speaker can get you closer to that…or room correction get you closer to that, IT is doing the job now of correction and you’re free to mix like you want it to sound in the room. But remember correction is only about frequency response and phase, dispersion, impulse response and distortion no less how changes with SPL or power compression are not addressed. Like I said we have this funny way of putting more importance on what we can correct. In this day in age with DSP I can dial in the H208’s to within about a +- 1dB and get the phase response damn close to the TAD’s yet they sound completely different. |
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Post by thehightenor on Jun 9, 2024 0:52:27 GMT -6
That makes no sense to me. If the same guy was sat in front of ATC 300's .... you're saying he wouldn't produce better results than when he sat in front of Alesis M1's? That's the exact opposite sentiment to the whole thread. Or if your saying a guy who knows a pair of Alesis M'1s will produce better results than an novice sat in front of ATC 300's .... well yeah - kinda goes without saying. Maybe I missed your point .... it's very possible I’m saying knowing a cheap crappy set of speakers, what they do right, what that get wrong will get you better results than sitting you in front of an awesome world class speakers they don’t know. A set of world class speakers won’t help you till you get to know them. Kinda goes without saying And it applies to all gear and all musical instruments to. Better an old friend you know well than something new you haven’t used before. |
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Post by antipodesjosh on Jun 9, 2024 3:53:46 GMT -6
One entertaining aspect of doing live sound, is that you typically sound check without any room treatment. Then just before the show, all the room treatment arrives, orders a beer, and takes a seat.
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