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Post by copperx on Jun 6, 2024 0:05:32 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be better to also take an impulse response of the room, instead of just 30 seconds of room tone?
That would make it easier to redo a phrase or two in a dead room.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 6, 2024 0:17:25 GMT -6
Wouldn't it be better to also take an impulse response of the room, instead of just 30 seconds of room tone? That would make it easier to redo a phrase or two in a dead room. Not really. You just underlay the room tone where you need it. |
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Post by rowmat on Jun 6, 2024 1:20:52 GMT -6
And make sure your dentures are properly anchored… if you have them.
There’s nothing worse than flapping dentures! 😁
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Post by Ward on Jun 6, 2024 6:12:41 GMT -6
SNIP SM7b (sorry Ward, we won't use this but he asked if I have one!). Might try the m88 as well. That has certainly turned into a great standing joke! LOL Yeah, the SM7b is a reasonably ok v.o. mic. The M88 will be better. Especially better than many condensers that are too articulate in speech - too much mouth noise. Technically, just keep it nice and level. a good fast preamp into an 1176 or other FET limiter completes the recording chain. As for performance? There aren't many rules other than listen to the client and producer and make them happy. if they want your soul in it, give them a taste. The performance FAR outweighs the technical requirements. Try to be yourself as opposed to imitating someone else to the point where it sounds like a pure imitation. I've done a lot of V.O. on both sides of the glass. |
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Post by Ward on Jun 6, 2024 6:13:51 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 6, 2024 12:53:19 GMT -6
Can you expand on use of “room tone “? Is that just “silence” in the room so it can somehow be removed later using processing? Or are you adding a room mic do make it sound more realistic without digital reverb? Sorry: it’s time like these that my status as an amateur shows. Thanks! -Chris If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course. Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 6, 2024 12:59:14 GMT -6
If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course. Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. I hate that. It really ruins the suspension of disbelief when you can identify ADR. As a viewer you kind of never "trust" anything you see once your brain starts envisioning actors in a booth instead of whatever the film is trying to portray. |
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Post by bossanova on Jun 6, 2024 18:48:53 GMT -6
RX has had a “clone ambiance” feature since RX9 (if not earlier). It can work from a very small sample of silence on the source recording if there’s no way to go back and record the original room tone. I imagine it’s only gotten better in recent editions.
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Post by bossanova on Jun 6, 2024 18:52:59 GMT -6
Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. I hate that. It really ruins the suspension of disbelief when you can identify ADR. As a viewer you kind of never "trust" anything you see once your brain starts envisioning actors in a booth instead of whatever the film is trying to portray. It’s also part of the charm of some of those 70s films where two characters are filmed from some distance walking and talking outside, and the dialogue is an obvious combination of booth ADR and outdoor ambiance. |
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Post by svart on Jun 7, 2024 7:11:47 GMT -6
I didn't read through all the replies yet, but the first question is..
Is this live, as in like on stage? Or is this strictly a studio-based job?
I have some friends that do tons of audiobook work and I can ask them if they have any tricks.
For me, I add compression so that I can hear everything more clearly and evenly and even hear if there's too much background noise. Artists tend to sway or move as they get into reading, so having some compression that evens out the cue is crucial. If they can hear themselves well, they typically move around less.
Also, comfort. A nice stool or chair they can sit on for long periods without having to adjust much. Large print. An artist struggling to read small print under/over the mic in front of them will stammer and sputter. Perhaps a dedicated Kindle or something instead of paper.
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Post by chessparov on Jun 7, 2024 9:20:52 GMT -6
I agree. A fire place is a nice touch. And a nice stool or chair. Non-electric though.  |
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Post by drumsound on Jun 7, 2024 9:22:12 GMT -6
If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course. Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. That stuff seems so obvious to me, and I'm sure everyone here, but the public often doesn't even catch it, or if they do they can say why/how a line or two don't match. It drives me nuts! |
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Post by chessparov on Jun 7, 2024 9:23:49 GMT -6
"What's Up Tiger Lilly"... Is the exception that proves this rule. It drove me "Bananas"  Chris |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 7, 2024 9:55:53 GMT -6
Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. That stuff seems so obvious to me, and I'm sure everyone here, but the public often doesn't even catch it, or if they do they can say why/how a line or two don't match. It drives me nuts! Which is why we do what we do! Many a movie night has been ruined with my wife because I've spent 20 minutes resetting apps, turning the tv off and on, and resetting our router and just generally burning sage and doing whatever voodoo I can because the dialogue has gone slightly out of sync on the Amazon Prime app on our TV (it's always Amazon!) But. Once I finally get it back in sync she does usually say "ok, you know what? You were right, it was off and it's better now. But also it's 11pm and I'm going to bed." |
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 7, 2024 10:31:11 GMT -6
Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. That stuff seems so obvious to me, and I'm sure everyone here, but the public often doesn't even catch it, or if they do they can say why/how a line or two don't match. It drives me nuts! I find it fun more than anything haha To find the lines there were cut or you can tell is produciton audio but the actor was whispering and the gain is really boosted. Having mixed some low budget films and worked on some other bigger projects. It's a constant battle or making it feel seemless and is never as easy as one would think. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 7, 2024 10:32:44 GMT -6
If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course. Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. A ton of modern tv shows and movies have awful dialogue production. Like at least old Bruce Lee and old foreign movies adred everything. Also the mixes are out of whack even in good theaters. Christopher Nolan movies, blade runner II. A ton of blu rays mess up both the sound and the video. The blu ray of Conan the barbarian screwed up the mix of both trying to remix the original well done mono sound (it works everywhere) into surround. They accidentally muted the music or ambience during certain parts in a movie with hardly any dialogue. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 7, 2024 10:49:09 GMT -6
Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. A ton of modern tv shows and movies have awful dialogue production. Like at least old Bruce Lee and old foreign movies adred everything. Also the mixes are out of whack even in good theaters. Christopher Nolan movies, blade runner II. A ton of blu rays mess up both the sound and the video. The blu ray of Conan the barbarian screwed up the mix of both trying to remix the original well done mono sound (it works everywhere) into surround. They accidentally muted the music or ambience during certain parts in a movie with hardly any dialogue. I’m almost at the point with Nolan where I just have to leave subtitles on all the time. |
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Post by drumsound on Jun 7, 2024 11:39:50 GMT -6
That stuff seems so obvious to me, and I'm sure everyone here, but the public often doesn't even catch it, or if they do they can say why/how a line or two don't match. It drives me nuts! Which is why we do what we do! Many a movie night has been ruined with my wife because I've spent 20 minutes resetting apps, turning the tv off and on, and resetting our router and just generally burning sage and doing whatever voodoo I can because the dialogue has gone slightly out of sync on the Amazon Prime app on our TV (it's always Amazon!) But. Once I finally get it back in sync she does usually say "ok, you know what? You were right, it was off and it's better now. But also it's 11pm and I'm going to bed." Oh, man, the sync thing drives me nuts. Luckily I usually only have it happen on YouTube, so I can restart my browser and it usually gets better. That stuff seems so obvious to me, and I'm sure everyone here, but the public often doesn't even catch it, or if they do they can say why/how a line or two don't match. It drives me nuts! I find it fun more than anything haha To find the lines there were cut or you can tell is produciton audio but the actor was whispering and the gain is really boosted. Having mixed some low budget films and worked on some other bigger projects. It's a constant battle or making it feel seemless and is never as easy as one would think. I'm usually just amused. I'll sometime rewind so my wife can hear it. SHe's become more aware, one of the dangers of living with an audio professional. I'm also really good an namine famous voice overs in commercials and stuff. Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. A ton of modern tv shows and movies have awful dialogue production. Like at least old Bruce Lee and old foreign movies adred everything. Also the mixes are out of whack even in good theaters. Christopher Nolan movies, blade runner II. A ton of blu rays mess up both the sound and the video. The blu ray of Conan the barbarian screwed up the mix of both trying to remix the original well done mono sound (it works everywhere) into surround. They accidentally muted the music or ambience during certain parts in a movie with hardly any dialogue. I hate music performances on TV since everything went digital. Any of the late night talk shows that I might tune in for a music guest sound freaking awful. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 7, 2024 11:46:35 GMT -6
Just to underscore what Bill is saying here, I was watching a film a few days ago (I can't remember now if it was Dune II or if it was a major Netflix show) and there was an insanely obvious line of ADR (Automatic Dialogue Replacement) suddenly thrown in when the actor's back was to the camera. I was shocked that it had gotten through the post production process that way. Once you get used to working on dialogue, it is crazy obvious when a pickup line or a line added after the fact to explain a plot point is flown in with no room tone to cover it. It's really jarring. A ton of modern tv shows and movies have awful dialogue production. Like at least old Bruce Lee and old foreign movies adred everything. Also the mixes are out of whack even in good theaters. Christopher Nolan movies, blade runner II. A ton of blu rays mess up both the sound and the video. The blu ray of Conan the barbarian screwed up the mix of both trying to remix the original well done mono sound (it works everywhere) into surround. They accidentally muted the music or ambience during certain parts in a movie with hardly any dialogue. I saw a Christopher Nolan quote somewhere where he basically says "yeah, I want it to sound like that." He deliberately wants it to be hard to follow the dialogue because he feels paying too close attention to it distracts you from the overall movie experience. Yeah... no. Many of us like to have a semblance of an idea as to what's going on with the plot. Especially when all your characters are wearing masks and you've applied some sort of weird low end distortion to every line. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 24, 2024 15:34:04 GMT -6
Did mic test session just now and this is gonna be a breeze. The talent is eccentric but actually talented and the material is legitimately pretty interesting. Probably giving me an unrealistic idea of what these gigs are normally like but after today it was like... man, I could get used to this.
Also, for any interested we did a four mic blind shootout and TLM 102 came out ahead. Second place (a very close second) was m88. A tight third was Lewitt 840. A distant fourth was SM7b. Interestingly SM7b sounded best on-axis but (as is its nature) like total crap on a stick off axis and there was no way this dude was going to stay consistent enough to stay on axis.
Opted not to bring down my SA 48 or any of my ribbons. Glad I didn't, 102 sounded great and he gets to tell people he's recording with a Neumann.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 24, 2024 15:34:54 GMT -6
Thanks for all the advice guys... I definitely seemed like I had an idea of what the hell I was doing. Fooled 'em again!
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Post by Dan on Jun 24, 2024 15:41:28 GMT -6
A ton of modern tv shows and movies have awful dialogue production. Like at least old Bruce Lee and old foreign movies adred everything. Also the mixes are out of whack even in good theaters. Christopher Nolan movies, blade runner II. A ton of blu rays mess up both the sound and the video. The blu ray of Conan the barbarian screwed up the mix of both trying to remix the original well done mono sound (it works everywhere) into surround. They accidentally muted the music or ambience during certain parts in a movie with hardly any dialogue. I saw a Christopher Nolan quote somewhere where he basically says "yeah, I want it to sound like that." He deliberately wants it to be hard to follow the dialogue because he feels paying too close attention to it distracts you from the overall movie experience. Yeah... no. Many of us like to have a semblance of an idea as to what's going on with the plot. Especially when all your characters are wearing masks and you've applied some sort of weird low end distortion to every line. There is no plot. If there were, Michael Caine wouldn't need to be payed to tell the audience the supposed plot. |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 24, 2024 18:49:06 GMT -6
I saw a Christopher Nolan quote somewhere where he basically says "yeah, I want it to sound like that." He deliberately wants it to be hard to follow the dialogue because he feels paying too close attention to it distracts you from the overall movie experience. Yeah... no. Many of us like to have a semblance of an idea as to what's going on with the plot. Especially when all your characters are wearing masks and you've applied some sort of weird low end distortion to every line. There is no plot. If there were, Michael Caine wouldn't need to be payed to tell the audience the supposed plot. I feel like I've posted this before, but it still gets me every time: |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 24, 2024 19:03:50 GMT -6
There is no plot. If there were, Michael Caine wouldn't need to be payed to tell the audience the supposed plot. I feel like I've posted this before, but it still gets me every time: The only part of this that is inaccurate is that you can understand what they're saying! |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 24, 2024 19:15:32 GMT -6
I feel like I've posted this before, but it still gets me every time: The only part of this that is inaccurate is that you can understand what they're saying! Yeah, it would need to have much much louder background music and SFX |
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