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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 12:48:31 GMT -6
Brand new world for me. But it's a great gig. Long project doing selections of epic poems from Beowulf. Cha-ching!!! However, I've never actually done spoken word before unless you count the occasional mix for comedy podcasts and stuff. I've never worked on the talent side of the production though. So what surprises might be in store for me that I should prepare for? In terms of technical stuff, I'm assuming the right way to do this is to put together the cleanest chain and record it super dry (probably recording through C-Vox as well?) and adding a little ambience later with LiquidSonics or somesuch. We've scheduled a two hour session for mic tests before we get started on the real work. Probably going to shoot out TLM 102, Lewitt 840, Lewitt 440, SM7b (sorry Ward, we won't use this but he asked if I have one!). Might try the m88 as well. Outside of the technical stuff, I'd really appreciate advice on running the session. How are these types of sessions different than a standard musical recording?
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 5, 2024 12:53:35 GMT -6
These run more like classical recordings in my experience. As is you don't do a lot of starting and stopping. You roll most the time. Drop tons of markers or just quick punch for new clips. But don't ever stop the recording. So in Protools I'd be hitting the #3 key on the num pad constand to generate a new clip for a take.
A dead clean sound is definitely the way to go, I would not record with CVox on it unless you are doing the producing and mixing of end product and know that's what you want. All denoising software has a sound and affects the sound. If someone else is going to mix it, let them deal with that.
If you're producing it, get the poems and enter them into a spreadsheet line by line and then check box the whole rest of the columns so you can keep very good track of which take per line was really good and a keeper.
good luck. take lots of notes if you can. Hard to do while manning the machines at the same time but is possible.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 5, 2024 13:12:11 GMT -6
Are you just the talent or are you doing production on it also? Workflow can change a lot depending on your role.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 13:30:34 GMT -6
Are you just the talent or are you doing production on it also? Workflow can change a lot depending on your role. No, the talent is the author of this kind of rewritten poetry from the Beowulf universe. Basically it's Beowulf fan fiction. Talk about your niche markets!
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 5, 2024 15:25:23 GMT -6
Are you just the talent or are you doing production on it also? Workflow can change a lot depending on your role. No, the talent is the author of this kind of rewritten poetry from the Beowulf universe. Basically it's Beowulf fan fiction. Talk about your niche markets! Ahh, gotcha…I misunderstood. I’ve done some audiobook stuff and what I’d recommend is: - for your signal chain I’d focus on eliminating sibilance and plosives, and having a nice full range signal. I don’t personally worry too much about how colored it is, but I am worried about repeatability. Can you easily reproduce the sound? That might mean leaving any cool, esoteric pieces out of the chain. Also, like most things the mid range is super important. Podcasts, audiobooks etc are often listened to on earbuds, in cars, on laptop speakers etc. To translate well you need a nicely detailed midrange. - leave any noise reduction off, do that in the mix later. - record it as close to finished as you can. That way sorting through hours of dialogue isn’t needed. - either edit as you go, having the artist punch in in real time (as needed) or keep dropping markers with extensive notes on which parts to edit out. Honestly, I think punching in as go will save you hours (possible days) of time. - arrange your sessions by chapter, stanza etc whatever makes sense for the project. Don’t track the whole thing in one session. If you have to go back later and punch in a line on the second paragraph of chapter 3 etc, it’s way easier to navigate this way. - check to see what the distributor wants as far as file format and delivery. Maybe they want the audio to peak at -10db, maybe they want a specific rms target. When mixing, just make it sound good and then normalize the entire project to their requested format. - don’t underestimate how hard it can be for the talent to “perform” the poetry. Everyone thinks voice overs and spoken word is easy, and then they stumble over every word and it becomes a total shit show. Voice acting is a real talent/skill. You might find yourself having to couch the talent much the same as you’d coach a singer. Anyway, that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. Hope that helps.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 15:41:00 GMT -6
No, the talent is the author of this kind of rewritten poetry from the Beowulf universe. Basically it's Beowulf fan fiction. Talk about your niche markets! Ahh, gotcha…I misunderstood. I’ve done some audiobook stuff and what I’d recommend is: - for your signal chain I’d focus on eliminating sibilance and plosives, and having a nice full range signal. I don’t personally worry too much about how colored it is, but I am worried about repeatability. Can you easily reproduce the sound? That might mean leaving any cool, esoteric pieces out of the chain. Also, like most things the mid range is super important. Podcasts, audiobooks etc are often listened to on earbuds, in cars, on laptop speakers etc. To translate well you need a nicely detailed midrange. - leave any noise reduction off, do that in the mix later. - record it as close to finished as you can. That way sorting through hours of dialogue isn’t needed. - either edit as you go, having the artist punch in in real time (as needed) or keep dropping markers with extensive notes on which parts to edit out. Honestly, I think punching in as go will save you hours (possible days) of time. - arrange your sessions by chapter, stanza etc whatever makes sense for the project. Don’t track the whole thing in one session. If you have to go back later and punch in a line on the second paragraph of chapter 3 etc, it’s way easier to navigate this way. - check to see what the distributor wants as far as file format and delivery. Maybe they want the audio to peak at -10db, maybe they want a specific rms target. When mixing, just make it sound good and then normalize the entire project to their requested format. - don’t underestimate how hard it can be for the talent to “perform” the poetry. Everyone thinks voice overs and spoken word is easy, and then they stumble over every word and it becomes a total shit show. Voice acting is a real talent/skill. You might find yourself having to couch the talent much the same as you’d coach a singer. Anyway, that’s all I can think of off the top of my head. Hope that helps. Extremely helpful! I'm planning to just go direct into RND 5032 so that I can EQ on the way in but not putting anything else in the chain (or at least I wasn't planning to). My thought was to do all of the compression and balancing using modern software tools in the mix like vocal levelers and dynamic EQ and such to get as clean as possible on the control. I don't think this guy is a very experienced VO artist so my thought was to steer him towards an Omni pattern mic so that proximity is less of an issue. I've got a very dry room for this so not worried about that. The point about punching as you go is one of the things I'm worried about. Seems like the best workflow, but for someone who is not experienced I have some concern that he might struggle to "stay in character" for punches. Good news is that we're going to be working in 2-3 hour chunks three times a week for most of the summer. So I won't have to deal with studio fatigue from someone not used to doing long tracking days. Quick sessions.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 15:43:35 GMT -6
Would you recommend sending him back with "dailies" (not sure what they're called in VO) or does that just risk having him overthink the whole thing? The idea here would be that we can start each session with any punches that need to be done on the previous session.
Bad idea? Good idea?
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 5, 2024 15:57:59 GMT -6
Hard to say without knowing how the talent works. You risk overthinking it and them wanting to redo everything all the time.
Or they will come back with a clear vision and hit list of what to fix and quickly get through it.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 16:01:11 GMT -6
Hard to say without knowing how the talent works. You risk overthinking it and them wanting to redo everything all the time. Or they will come back with a clear vision and hit list of what to fix and quickly get through it. There's a case to be made that redo-ing everything is just more studio hours. I feel gross even typing that because it seems kind of unethical or something, but isn't there a case to be made that if someone wants to spend twice as long doing something, more power to them? Feels kind of wrong to me though. I don't like the idea of milking a client.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 5, 2024 16:04:19 GMT -6
Hard to say without knowing how the talent works. You risk overthinking it and them wanting to redo everything all the time. Or they will come back with a clear vision and hit list of what to fix and quickly get through it. There's a case to be made that redo-ing everything is just more studio hours. I feel gross even typing that because it seems kind of unethical or something, but isn't there a case to be made that if someone wants to spend twice as long doing something, more power to them? Feels kind of wrong to me though. I don't like the idea of milking a client. I mean if they have the budget for it. Sure I guess. But at some point I'd think they'd go damn I can't spend that much. But that's part of being a producer is making sure one doesn't spend too much time on the first thing so that there is nothing left of the last one. If they care that much, then yeah I wouldn't deny them the time if they are willing to pay for it and you're not getting driven crazy by the project either. Which could also happen as some point haha
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Post by doubledog on Jun 5, 2024 16:06:03 GMT -6
yeah, that's it. if they have the budget and insist on "fixing" everything then let them go. Maybe they do know better. As long as you are not the one suggesting it then you are doing what the client wants/needs. And if it sounds good, let them know it's good.
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Post by Darren Boling on Jun 5, 2024 16:09:28 GMT -6
All good advice above. One thing I'll add is I've noticed with every narrative podcast I've edited is they're using at minimum 2 mics, typically an 87 and a SM7b, or a 47 and 441. These are usually big actors so it's mostly for safety, I've definitely had to go to the alt mic when the main mic overloaded or had some other issue in an important scene. The other life saver is the script notes. Good takes, director comments, etc. are vital when you find yourself with an hour of audio for 7 lines.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Jun 5, 2024 16:13:12 GMT -6
All good advice above. One thing I'll add is I've noticed with every narrative podcast I've edited is they're using at minimum 2 mics, typically an 87 and a SM7b, or a 47 and 441. These are usually big actors so it's mostly for safety, I've definitely had to go to the alt mic when the main mic overloaded or had some other issue in an important scene. The other life saver is the script notes. Good takes, director comments, etc. are vital when you find yourself with an hour of audio for 7 lines. Never would have thought of that. Good suggestion, two mics... easy enough.
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Post by drumsound on Jun 5, 2024 16:40:03 GMT -6
I've done a couple of audiobooks. Having the text in your hand is really important. Make notes that you can make sense of, because there will be a lot of work later. As mentioned just hit record for each section/chapter. Even if you stop the talent and have a discussion, keep it rolling. There are sometimes things you can grab from those conversations.
One that I did the author was TERRIBLE at reading her own (also terrible) book. Then the site she was uploading it to would find one chapter was.5 DB low, and a bunch of other pain in the ass things, including wanting a separate "THE END" even though it was in a final chapter.
I suggest taking a screed shot before consolidating the first chapter, so that when they are asking why it was so many hours you can show the 150 edits on just that chapter.
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Post by rowmat on Jun 5, 2024 16:43:07 GMT -6
“This is the BBC. Here is the news.”
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Post by christopher on Jun 5, 2024 17:09:45 GMT -6
Oh this will either be easy or a total nightmare, not much in between.
The biggest nightmare client I ever had was someone with zero experience that needed to make a 60 minute relaxation recording. It was a nightmare. They paid well, it wasn’t worth it.
If you’ve ever sang or pretended to sing in a band, there are basic things about microphones you learn without trying. Things like.. don’t breathe straight into the capsule, speak at a steady volume, watch your plosives, and don’t turn your head and look at notes… things I just thought everyone knows.. ha
And some people just don’t have pleasant voices when they talk. VO is a craft that pro’s work on, …young me didn’t understand that.
First day I would suggest plan to have 5 tracks, 3-5 mics if possible. Process each one differently, make a blend, try to control plosives, sibilance, ambient for when they turn their head, etc. Then if they prove to only need one mic, ok.. cautiously go that route.
Good luck!
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2024 17:20:23 GMT -6
I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned these 2 very important things :
#1 - Preferably use NO EQ, and use a chain that is very "standard" across the country / world. It's very common for fixes, pickups or little adjustments in other places of the world - as in not your studio. The mic should be common. A U87 is very standard, and use a mic pre (API or NEVE) that virtually every studio has a variation of and you'll be safe. If you need to EQ, do it in the DAW and use an industry standard EQ and notate the settings.
#2 - ROOM TONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wherever you have a recording take place - voice over booth, main room, out in a lounge, wherever - RECORD ROOM TONE!!!!!!! Yes, I was shouting. If you don't know what this is, you've probably never had to edit dialog. This is a critical part of things, and make sure you slate it - "vocal booth, U87, room tone" and record 30 seconds or so. And yeah, anywhere you record, record room tone. The editor will curse you if you don't.
Another note - make sure you monitor back on something where you can hear sub bass so you can know FOR SURE you have no "LF pops" that you're unaware of.
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Post by ironinthepath on Jun 5, 2024 18:04:24 GMT -6
Can you expand on use of “room tone “? Is that just “silence” in the room so it can somehow be removed later using processing? Or are you adding a room mic do make it sound more realistic without digital reverb? Sorry: it’s time like these that my status as an amateur shows. Thanks! -Chris
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Post by bossanova on Jun 5, 2024 18:06:24 GMT -6
Usually it's the background noise of the room that can be layered in to lengthen edits or fill silences where needed.
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Post by drbill on Jun 5, 2024 21:15:21 GMT -6
Can you expand on use of “room tone “? Is that just “silence” in the room so it can somehow be removed later using processing? Or are you adding a room mic do make it sound more realistic without digital reverb? Sorry: it’s time like these that my status as an amateur shows. Thanks! -Chris If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course.
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Post by bossanova on Jun 5, 2024 22:06:18 GMT -6
Can you expand on use of “room tone “? Is that just “silence” in the room so it can somehow be removed later using processing? Or are you adding a room mic do make it sound more realistic without digital reverb? Sorry: it’s time like these that my status as an amateur shows. Thanks! -Chris If you're editing dialog for films, spoken word or anything spoken but very exposed, unless there is a solid music bed underneath it, when you edit pauses, mistakes, etc. out of the recording you are left with stark, ugly - SILENCE. Dead silence. It is very obvious, and amateurish when you hear the room during speaking and the noise of the electronics, then suddenly - NOTHING. It's jarring. Thats where the room tone comes in. You use it to fill in the silent spots in the edited dialog. It matches your environment perfectly, and fills the silent holes that would otherwise stick out like a sore thumb. Hope that makes sense. PS - it's very unnatural to us to hear real silence behind spoken word. Although you might think it's desirable, and although you might think your recording is very silent - the reality is there is room tone, and also a low level residual noise from the mic and your electronics. A bit of noise is your friend in spoken word. Within reason of course. It always sounds weird to me when podcasts have a hard gate in between phrases/pauses, because you can hear how unnatural the “total black” silence sounds compared to the ambient room tone.
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Post by notneeson on Jun 5, 2024 22:20:51 GMT -6
The Pixar thing, or at least that’s where I got it, where you have a pair of mics and one is like, an extra 18 inches back, can be nice. Never to be summed together.
You only cut to the more distant mic if you clip. But I have done a lot of interview recordings and shit happens. Especially if the persons busts out laughing or leans in for some reason. And you don’t want heavy compression artifacts unless you’re doing Howard Stern or something.
A lot of public radio/podcast stuff is a shotgun mic. Has a really specific sound. Good room rejection seems to be the idea, but they’re kinda edgy sounding.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jun 5, 2024 22:57:22 GMT -6
Roomtone is good to have. But you can also "create it" these days or almost remove it entirely. I've done both for dialog. And if your doing a constant record you'll usually always have long pockets of room tone all over.
Two mics isn't bad, especially if its dynamic material. Or you can multi the mic and have it going to two pre amps with different gain. I do that for production audio sometimes.
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Post by anders on Jun 5, 2024 23:05:43 GMT -6
To avoid problems with mouth noises or voice wear-out, getting the artist to hydrate regularly is good, especially at the start of the session as the voice is warming up.
Cold still water is good for keeping generally hydrated. Sugary soft drinks and coffee can be detrimental to the voice. Not-too-strong tea or – my personal favourite – simply hot water is better for keeping the voice lubricated in my experience.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 5, 2024 23:56:56 GMT -6
Dont sing
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