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Post by formatcyes on Aug 2, 2014 15:53:18 GMT -6
I work at a level that is below this articles idea of starving, I work for hobbyists, my work is my hobby, I charge pennies and my clients make pennies. My ecosystem won't be hurt by any of this. Same here BUT. The fact there is no middle class musicians any more means the run up is impossible. Its dream stealing. What makes it even worse is someone is making money.. Just not the creators.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 2, 2014 16:58:22 GMT -6
I've often felt that we in the music business and the city of Detroit are the canaries in the coal mine.
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 2, 2014 17:51:19 GMT -6
I've often felt that we in the music business and the city of Detroit are the canaries in the coal mine. Yep. The masses are being distracted by boogy men and cheap entertainment... While the reality is so much scarier. What you need to be happy. 1) enough money so you can pay your bills and eat. 2) a partner who has your back. 3) Be involved in something that is bigger than you.. (creating music with other people falls here)
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 2, 2014 20:01:38 GMT -6
i just watched a documentary on napster, some things that struck me, primarily the total disregard for artists well being, it was a battle of pirates, meaning napster and the record companies, the record companies had 0 vision, and completely blew it for themselves, napster was just a bunch of kids who had no business savvy, the RC's could have controlled all of it if they'd embraced the idea instead of destroying it, but no, they decided to put their future in the hands of the worst drummer who ever lived lol.
the other thing that struck me, unless i heard wrong, Sean Parker, the secondary guy at napster is the prick who put spotify on the map to continue his seemingly personal vendeta to fuck artists everywhere out of a living.... geez
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 2, 2014 23:20:55 GMT -6
The investment bankers behind Napster who provided their multi-million dollar legal defense were no bunch of kids. As I said above, the labels had no right to make a deal for digital distribution. If they had, they might well have sold out the artists but thankfully they couldn't do that.
Part two is the app store now that labels and record stores have been destroyed.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 3, 2014 21:01:03 GMT -6
Didn't the bankers come in after the recording industry could of struck a deal w/ Napster to be the digital delivery service though? I have to think if all the artist had been told that the industry would be like it is today they would have allowed the renegotiation of those contracts. I mean it's basically what is going on now with iTunes, but at that time because Napster had allowed copyright infringement the recording industry had them by the short and curly's, they could of gotten a great deal during that time.
Now they need to go to Spotify and get a deal done so that everyone is happy, and also that people are being paid what they should be paid. They have leverage, people want streamed music, just like people want the streaming side of Netflix, no one sends off for the DVD's anymore, it's just the streaming they want, it's the future of both the film and music industry. Why not go in now when the demand is there, and simply say, "Spotify, either you pay out the proper royalties, or we pull all the music, let you only play independent artist who WANT to give you the music, and go find or start our own streaming service that will pay those royalties." Man that makes so much more sense than just giving them the content and sitting by while they know the royalty distribution is totally screwed up. I think it's a cash cow, but they have to renegotiate the terms so things turn back around. If everyone paid the $10 per month subscription like they do with Netflix, that would be a giant wad of cash. They have something like 25 million subscribers with only 6 million being the paid service. Just make it all paid, get the royalties correct, and everyone is happy.
The other thing about this streaming is that unlike iTunes where is al a carte, you get the whole album. I like the idea of people pulling up an artist's new album and hitting play and listening to ALL the songs. I mean at least we get that back, and it pays royalties for all the songs on a record so that all the songwriters are getting paid, not just whoever wrote the singles.
Here is a quote from their site, and I know people believe they are evil, but really if it went to paid subscriptions, they are right on with this: "Recently, these variables have led to an average “per stream” payout to rights holders of between $0.006 and $0.0084. This combines activity across our tiers of service. The effective average “per stream” payout generated by our Premium subscribers is considerably higher.
Again, we personally view “per stream” metrics as a highly flawed indication of our value to artists for several reasons. For one, our growing user population might listen to more music in a given month than the month before (resulting in a lower effective “per stream”), while generating far more aggregate royalties for artists. As with any subscription service, our primary goal is to attract and retain as many paying subscribers as we possibly can, and to pass along greater and greater royalties to the creators of the music in our service. Theoretically, another service could generate higher effective “per stream” payouts simply by having users who listen to far less music. We believe, however, that our service and the lives of artists will both be best if the World’s music fans enjoy more music than ever before in a legal, paid manner."
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 4, 2014 10:13:38 GMT -6
The recording industry had no right to strike any deal without renegotiating most of their contracts with artists and their estates. Napster knew this and their very first legal defense was that labels didn't have standing to sue for copyright infringement. Meanwhile the consumer tech industry was lobbying for a congressionally bought compulsory license for recordings. Artists were being held hostage in the form of enabling mass looting in an effort to eliminate any negotiations for rights.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 4, 2014 12:24:48 GMT -6
All that was ever needed was to enforce the damned law! People who uploaded thousands of songs should have been prosecuted as criminals exactly as the law calls for. Civil lawsuits were not an appropriate response. Unfortunately the recording industry chickened out. I assume you are referring to the Napster suits back in the 90's spearheaded by Metalica and Dr Dre? Yes your right, prosecution probably should have happened. The problem is much bigger than that now though. As everyone knows, as soon as the US government shut down Napsters servers, downloading still happened as if nothing had changed because there were mirror sites all over the world serving the same protocols. And this is always the case. Make a law in the good ole USA and it means nothing because we are now on an instant global scale. Here's the only fix I can see, figure out a way to make people want to buy something that they can get for free because no matter how much prosecuting we try to do, the area is too big to police. Nab one and a million more will pop up. Now then, this line of thinking goes back and puts the ball squarely back in the court of music makers and sellers (labels). No better example than bro country right now. I just read an article that proves how absolutely stupid major labels are. They are marketing this stuff to the demographic who is completely broke; high school and college kids who think binge drinking from a Dixie cup on a tail gate is cool. Dies this even make sense?? No wonder we all hate bro country here on this forum. We all realized how stupid that kind of life was years ago. I have money to buy records and would gladly fork over the dough for a good one. Why not market to me instead of a young broke punk who doesn't have the money to buy records and wouldn't if he did? No boys, it isn't a lack of good music or artists, it's a lack of seeing the big picture with our art form. Get back to making great music that has something to say and people will buy it. Maybe not the young crowd, but they aren't buying anyway. Food for thought.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 4, 2014 14:23:51 GMT -6
All that was ever needed was to enforce the damned law! People who uploaded thousands of songs should have been prosecuted as criminals exactly as the law calls for. Civil lawsuits were not an appropriate response. Unfortunately the recording industry chickened out. I assume you are referring to the Napster suits back in the 90's spearheaded by Metalica and Dr Dre? Yes your right, prosecution probably should have happened. The problem is much bigger than that now though. As everyone knows, as soon as the US government shut down Napsters servers, downloading still happened as if nothing had changed because there were mirror sites all over the world serving the same protocols. And this is always the case. Make a law in the good ole USA and it means nothing because we are now on an instant global scale. Here's the only fix I can see, figure out a way to make people want to buy something that they can get for free because no matter how much prosecuting we try to do, the area is too big to police. Nab one and a million more will pop up. Now then, this line of thinking goes back and puts the ball squarely back in the court of music makers and sellers (labels). No better example than bro country right now. I just read an article that proves how absolutely stupid major labels are. They are marketing this stuff to the demographic who is completely broke; high school and college kids who think binge drinking from a Dixie cup on a tail gate is cool. Dies this even make sense?? No wonder we all hate bro country here on this forum. We all realized how stupid that kind of life was years ago. I have money to buy records and would gladly fork over the dough for a good one. Why not market to me instead of a young broke punk who doesn't have the money to buy records and wouldn't if he did? No boys, it isn't a lack of good music or artists, it's a lack of seeing the big picture with our art form. Get back to making great music that has something to say and people will buy it. Maybe not the young crowd, but they aren't buying anyway. Food for thought. Something my wife said to me the other day that really rang a bell, it's funny how people not immersed in this business come up with some pretty good ideas. Last night I went for a run, I put my Spotify on the country station and after the second song I thought "I'm not hearing any women on here" so I kept going and 1 hour goes by, not one single woman came on, and this is just general country music. I got home and told my wife it was odd, and she was telling me about an interview with Terri Clark on Nash FM about how there is basically no room in country for women. Now, this could have some legs, could the end of Bro Country be the political motivation for women?? Seems reasonable, and my sister confirmed the same thing to me, heck, she would actually be a damn good candidate to make a stir over this because of her promising future. It's something that I'm starting to think might actually start to form into a debate, the women of country music are already starting to talk about it, if this is somehow blown up into a sexual discrimination debate, we could see the end of Bro Country. It's just a thought, but it's very real, and it's just sad. Think back 15 years ago when the country music business seemed sane, all the kick ass women artist that were all over the radio along with the men, singing about similar things, that doesn't happen today, it's sad.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 5, 2014 0:35:52 GMT -6
I totally agree that all of this has raised the bar for album quality significantly. Graphics are a big part of what an album traditionally was yet they are MIA.
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2014 9:57:53 GMT -6
I assume you are referring to the Napster suits back in the 90's spearheaded by Metalica and Dr Dre? Yes your right, prosecution probably should have happened. The problem is much bigger than that now though. As everyone knows, as soon as the US government shut down Napsters servers, downloading still happened as if nothing had changed because there were mirror sites all over the world serving the same protocols. And this is always the case. Make a law in the good ole USA and it means nothing because we are now on an instant global scale. Here's the only fix I can see, figure out a way to make people want to buy something that they can get for free because no matter how much prosecuting we try to do, the area is too big to police. Nab one and a million more will pop up. Now then, this line of thinking goes back and puts the ball squarely back in the court of music makers and sellers (labels). No better example than bro country right now. I just read an article that proves how absolutely stupid major labels are. They are marketing this stuff to the demographic who is completely broke; high school and college kids who think binge drinking from a Dixie cup on a tail gate is cool. Dies this even make sense?? No wonder we all hate bro country here on this forum. We all realized how stupid that kind of life was years ago. I have money to buy records and would gladly fork over the dough for a good one. Why not market to me instead of a young broke punk who doesn't have the money to buy records and wouldn't if he did? No boys, it isn't a lack of good music or artists, it's a lack of seeing the big picture with our art form. Get back to making great music that has something to say and people will buy it. Maybe not the young crowd, but they aren't buying anyway. Food for thought. . Last night I went for a run, I put my Spotify on the country station Ummm. Why are you using Spotify?
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Post by Johnkenn on Aug 5, 2014 9:59:10 GMT -6
Did you guys read that article I posted in the songwriting forum? "The music industry should take its cues from TV". I thought it was excellent. Stop catering to 14 year olds.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,098
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Post by ericn on Aug 5, 2014 12:18:10 GMT -6
Did you guys read that article I posted in the songwriting forum? "The music industry should take its cues from TV". I thought it was excellent. Stop catering to 14 year olds. The thing is we no longer have a music industry it's now a celebriy industry and 14 year olds by everything celebrity, Kim Kardashiand stupid game generates 700,000 a day! It's branding folks talent is dead it's the brand.
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Post by Ward on Aug 6, 2014 8:23:28 GMT -6
My theory:
Someone will invent a non-hackable self-contained app for music and put it for sale on the app store. As an artist/producer/publisher/label-like, you will have to send your music to the company making the app who will then embed it into your version of the app and then Apple/Other will sell it on their app store. Each copy will also be unique and require double-ended verification.
The app itself will be quite powerful. Capable of revealing all your artwork, lyrics, videos, pictures, besides your music. And the music will be higher resolution than most MP3s.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 6, 2014 10:30:31 GMT -6
Apple already tried the album app. The basic problem is that a computer file has absolutely no perceived value.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 6, 2014 10:46:54 GMT -6
My theory: Someone will invent a non-hackable self-contained app for music and put it for sale on the app store. As an artist/producer/publisher/label-like, you will have to send your music to the company making the app who will then embed it into your version of the app and then Apple/Other will sell it on their app store. Each copy will also be unique and require double-ended verification. The app itself will be quite powerful. Capable of revealing all your artwork, lyrics, videos, pictures, besides your music. And the music will be higher resolution than most MP3s. this is what kills an otherwise utopian post for me.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Aug 6, 2014 11:00:00 GMT -6
I think I see your point Tony. If a program can be written, it can be hacked, sooner or later if a computer geek is so inclined. Something on that magnitude would doubt make a huge target for the prestige of being the one who hacked it.
I don't think we even begin to realize how deep these networks of computer overlords go. It's romanticized in movies but I think in real life, it's probably even worse than we think.
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Post by matt on Aug 6, 2014 12:40:10 GMT -6
The basic problem is that a computer file has absolutely no perceived value. Yes. Some serious social engineering needs to take place to eliminate this fallacy.
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Post by matt on Aug 6, 2014 12:51:51 GMT -6
My theory: Someone will invent a non-hackable self-contained app Difficult to do. Creating something that is hard to hack might be more achievable. The financial industry has to work very hard to stay even with the bad guys and all sorts of security technologies are evolving to protect their customers (us). Perhaps something will spin-off and enable a return to a sensible value proposition for recorded media.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 6, 2014 13:08:16 GMT -6
I think I see your point Tony. If a program can be written, it can be hacked, sooner or later if a computer geek is so inclined. Something on that magnitude would doubt make a huge target for the prestige of being the one who hacked it. Well, I'm not totally sure that someone couldn't come up with something that was bullet proof. Take the satellite companies. From as soon as the late 90's through about 2004 directv had the cards in the boxes that determined programming, I think maybe they still do? Anyway, my cousin had this little card reader, he'd jump online and download a file and then hack that card and put the file on it, voila full access. Eventually they'd send something out that banned whatever code he had put on the card, but just as soon as it would go out, he'd have like 10 more codes ready to go, they just couldn't keep up with the hackers. Now, around 2003 they came out with new card, and this one was bullet proof. Directv went out and hired the guys doing all the hacking and had them build a card no one could bust. Someone, somewhere can come up with something that will stop illegal stuff, but it's so much broader. They've got to get ALL of the digital rights straightened out and make sure people are getting paid properly.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 6, 2014 13:10:31 GMT -6
Actually I'm told by folks in the position to know that things really can be made very unhackable, The problem is that apple and mickeysoft have only allowed glorified screen door hooks because they make a fortune from looted software selling hardware and operating systems.
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Post by jeromemason on Aug 6, 2014 13:22:40 GMT -6
Actually I'm told by folks in the position to know that things really can be made very unhackable, The problem is that apple and mickeysoft have only allowed glorified screen door hooks because they make a fortune from looted software selling hardware and operating systems. You're so right Bob. My old boss sold out the studio I worked in for 6 years and created a program that would crawl the internet for infringed material, and then it would automatically send out DMCA's. I should really call him and get him to come in here and explain things, this guy is a freaking genius and knows this inside and out. His company is called Mimtid.com ( Mine. Is. Mine. Take. It. Down) funny name, even funnier how it came about, that was a fun meeting. Anyway, he's told me several times they can stop this, but there are companies like Google and Apple that don't what it happening, because if you peel back the source of the fight, it always goes back to these big companies, but in ways that makes it look like they are innocent. I really need to call and get him to join the forum and chime in on this, he's in Washington like 6 months out of the year fighting it.
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Post by tonycamphd on Aug 6, 2014 13:36:02 GMT -6
I think I see your point Tony. If a program can be written, it can be hacked, sooner or later if a computer geek is so inclined. Something on that magnitude would doubt make a huge target for the prestige of being the one who hacked it. Well, I'm not totally sure that someone couldn't come up with something that was bullet proof. Take the satellite companies. From as soon as the late 90's through about 2004 directv had the cards in the boxes that determined programming, I think maybe they still do? Anyway, my cousin had this little card reader, he'd jump online and download a file and then hack that card and put the file on it, voila full access. Eventually they'd send something out that banned whatever code he had put on the card, but just as soon as it would go out, he'd have like 10 more codes ready to go, they just couldn't keep up with the hackers. Now, around 2003 they came out with new card, and this one was bullet proof. Directv went out and hired the guys doing all the hacking and had them build a card no one could bust. Someone, somewhere can come up with something that will stop illegal stuff, but it's so much broader. They've got to get ALL of the digital rights straightened out and make sure people are getting paid properly. is it all about pirate value, or maybe ego? I can tell you that when napster lost their court battle and were ordered to shut down, the site kept running because other nerds had encrypted satellite servers all over the world that were also supporting napsters network. The record companies, instead of lynching napster(which they did deserve imv), should have have partnered and worked with them, instead, just like in an alien sci fi movie, they chopped off the head and flooded the world with a bunch of offshoot alien spawn baby's, ever since then, policing has become a cat herding exercise in futility.
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Post by formatcyes on Aug 6, 2014 15:32:56 GMT -6
It's impossible to make audio unhackable. At some point its analogue with modern converters being so good all you would have to do is loop it back in. "Mine.Is.Mine.Take.It.Down" this is really the solution backed up by real enforcement.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Aug 6, 2014 16:23:56 GMT -6
Again, the record companies could not make a deal with anybody without negotiating new recording contracts. In fact they would have been sued by artists for negligence if they didn't do everything in their power to defend the artists' copyrights.
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