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Post by bossanova on May 31, 2024 18:30:45 GMT -6
So here's a question: I've made synth music for a long time, but I typically use soft synths for recording. It's what I started on before I had any synth hardware, and I'm very much a fan of being able to swap or tweak a patch after the fact. The exception would be something like my Hydrasynth which generally plays nicely in mixes. So now I'm starting to track my Pro 800, which has been used as a jam and writing synth up to this point. And man: there are a lot of patches that will sound great in the room but in the cold light of the mix end up sounding too big or too buzzy or both. Do any of y'all who play analog synths or record them have go-to approaches for this issue? Other than just learning to make leaner and less aggressive patches? I take that as a given.
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Post by bossanova on May 31, 2024 19:40:36 GMT -6
As usual, just asking the question out loud helped my brain start working on the problem. I went back to one of the patches in question and started making liberal use of the cutoff, envelope amount, and key tracking controls, and it cleaned the sound right up on that particular patch.
In addition, do y'all have go to techniques for treating the above problem if retracking isn't an option?
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Post by the other mark williams on May 31, 2024 19:55:19 GMT -6
One thing is to track through the cleanest, highest headroom pre you have. I once mixed an electronic album where the guy had tracked every one of his synth parts through the UA610 pre, which of course saturated his synths even more, and made them darker and fuzzier. It was a challenge to clean them up and get certain parts/lines to pop out in the mix.
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Post by ragan on May 31, 2024 20:53:44 GMT -6
I would say work on making the other mix elements lively and impactful enough to stand up to the size and character you’re getting out of your analog synths, rather than try to contain/flatten the synths.
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Post by bossanova on May 31, 2024 20:58:49 GMT -6
One thing is to track through the cleanest, highest headroom pre you have. I once mixed an electronic album where the guy had tracked every one of his synth parts through the UA610 pre, which of course saturated his synths even more, and made them darker and fuzzier. It was a challenge to clean them up and get certain parts/lines to pop out in the mix. I’ve been tracking through my M4, so it’s about as clean as it gets . I should try using some saturation on some of the bright ones just to see if it takes the edge off or makes it worse.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 31, 2024 21:26:29 GMT -6
I do a lot of analog synth stuff. I love tracking through the di on my sebatron vmp4000. Saturating the Pres hard is so nice and the extra distortion is welcomed 99% of the time.
I don’t find there to be any special tricks other just exercising good arrangement practices. Don’t layer too many parts. Carefully pick which parts will be the highlights and which can be smaller, background parts etc. Make sure everything is spread out sonically. And be very careful with tuning. Detuned oscillators sound great in solo, but can really fuck things up in a mix. Also really test out each patch to see if it sounds best in mono or stereo. Synth patches can have some crazy stereo information that can radically change when seething the output of the synth to mono (as opposed to recording it in stereo and then panning both sides dead center).
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Post by bossanova on May 31, 2024 21:53:16 GMT -6
I do a lot of analog synth stuff. I love tracking through the di on my sebatron vmp4000. Saturating the Pres hard is so nice and the extra distortion is welcomed 99% of the time. I don’t find there to be any special tricks other just exercising good arrangement practices. Don’t layer too many parts. Carefully pick which parts will be the highlights and which can be smaller, background parts etc. Make sure everything is spread out sonically. And be very careful with tuning. Detuned oscillators sound great in solo, but can really fuck things up in a mix. Also really test out each patch to see if it sounds best in mono or stereo. Synth patches can have some crazy stereo information that can radically change when seething the output of the synth to mono (as opposed to recording it in stereo and then panning both sides dead center). In this case the last one isn't a danger because the P800 is mono only. I have good emulations of the chorus pedals that I would normally use so I've been saving FX for ITB. I love me some big detuned patches, so that's probably not helping.
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Post by drumsound on May 31, 2024 23:16:06 GMT -6
I find when I get into synth things that there's often A LOT happening in the low end that isn't helping. Hi pass filters, even simple one's on stock EQ can help. I'll sometimes take the PT EQIII one band, and set it for low pass and start sweeping until I hear the sounds I'm looking for, and then switch it to high pass.
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Post by robo on May 31, 2024 23:53:42 GMT -6
I do a lot of analog synth stuff. I love tracking through the di on my sebatron vmp4000. Saturating the Pres hard is so nice and the extra distortion is welcomed 99% of the time. I don’t find there to be any special tricks other just exercising good arrangement practices. Don’t layer too many parts. Carefully pick which parts will be the highlights and which can be smaller, background parts etc. Make sure everything is spread out sonically. And be very careful with tuning. Detuned oscillators sound great in solo, but can really fuck things up in a mix. Also really test out each patch to see if it sounds best in mono or stereo. Synth patches can have some crazy stereo information that can radically change when seething the output of the synth to mono (as opposed to recording it in stereo and then panning both sides dead center). I agree with all this. I would add that just like overdubbed guitars, strings, etc, you’ll make much better decisions in context of an otherwise solid rough mix. The more you know the size of a hole there is, the easier it is to not overfill it. Of course sometimes you just have to move fast and you end up processing the snot out of it in the mix regardless.
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Post by vvvooojjj on Jun 1, 2024 0:15:58 GMT -6
I work with hardware synths, let's say 90% of the time, compared to plugins and have found it's all about the programming. Then low cut, high cut and mud cut if needed with whatever eq you prefer working with ITB. Pro-800 and Prophets have a metallic quality when the filter is opened. It does sound cool but will take space in the mix. Synths sound better when tracking straight into a converter quite often too. Chandler pres have nice saturation for synths if that's something one is looking for.
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Post by anders on Jun 1, 2024 3:14:38 GMT -6
[…]Detuned oscillators sound great in solo, but can really fuck things up in a mix. […] is a very good point. Also: A trick that was not uncommon in the 1980s, was tracking through a guitar amp in a room. It will both rein in the frequency spectrum and dynamics a bit, and can also make the synth sit in a room, and not 5 mm from your eardrum.
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Post by FM77 on Jun 1, 2024 6:38:26 GMT -6
Alot of vintage synth recording here as well, very little VSTs. Mostly vintage string machine types, EPs or moog type leads. nothing aggressive.
Without repeating the advice given, I would add to use as many mix references as possible. Much of the music I enjoy as a listener, from Fusion, Prog or 70's adult pop/soul is analog synth infused. It is kind of ingrained in my DNA, but I find it useful to see how others organized a certain flavor or arrangement in a mix context. Sometimes I am listening to a track or album and the strings jump out and I take note of it for later.
Some analog synths have less forgiveness as far as frequency placement, level and as noted by another, arrangement. They can swallow up alot of space.
As for tracking, personally I would experiment. I haven't found a single method for myself. I have repeatable solution's, but I'll run it through a boards channel, a DI, a pre, a rack effect (directly in), whatever, until I find the vibe I want.
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Post by yewtreemagic on Jun 1, 2024 6:55:17 GMT -6
Make sure everything is spread out sonically. And be very careful with tuning. Detuned oscillators sound great in solo, but can really fuck things up in a mix. Also really test out each patch to see if it sounds best in mono or stereo. Synth patches can have some crazy stereo information that can radically change when seething the output of the synth to mono (as opposed to recording it in stereo and then panning both sides dead center). +1 to this advice. I routinely narrow the width of most of my stereo synth channels in the mix (by switching to Reaper's Stereo Pan option, which offers separate pan and width controls) as otherwise they fill up the mix too much, and then pan the 'thinned' versions so they hopefully occupy their own unique space between left and right. Martin
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Post by Dan on Jun 1, 2024 8:16:45 GMT -6
Low pass filters, de-essers, high frequency limiters, and tape plugs to tame the high end.
They’re synths, just like guitars they’re already shaped distortion and noise. Don’t be afraid to do more. Just don’t make them worse.
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Post by anders on Jun 1, 2024 9:03:59 GMT -6
And an arrangement one (at the risk of stating the obvious): Experiment with chord inversions that don't attempt co-existing in the same register as other parts, and also with reducing the number of fingers you allow yourself to use on the keyboard. Does the root note need to be present, for instance? If you thin out the note herd, you might even be able to get away with some heavy-handed detuning.
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Post by sirthought on Jun 3, 2024 16:19:44 GMT -6
I have been known to do a few test recordings and then listen back to EQ as needed. It can be like a guitar, depending on the role in the piece. So often a lot of low end can be removed. Sometime high mids pushed, etc.
I think tracking through an amp can be cool. But it's often really inspiring to go line in and just seek out the flavor.
Personally, I have usually used my WT-72, so a tube pre, over my more clean options.
It can be quite frustrating to jam out with something you think is cool and the setting doesn't quite translate on the tape.
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Post by bossanova on Jun 8, 2024 18:13:30 GMT -6
Thanks for the advice everyone! For this project I eventually went with an unconventional solution: taking the easy way out and replacing the Pro 800 with my Hydrasynth. 😇
After spending some time away from playing it, I have a much better appreciation for how the Hydra can fit into a mix without a ton of extra work. It doesn’t automatically have that bite and 3D quality that grabs your attention in solo, but I’m coming around to that being a good thing.
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Post by jacobamerritt on Jun 8, 2024 18:43:16 GMT -6
Seconding the insight of using a preamp that can handle the sonic spectrum and volume. My Phoenix DRS-Q4s sound unreal on analog synths... Also a decent optical compressor is a nice touch to get them under control going in.
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Post by basspro on Jun 8, 2024 19:45:32 GMT -6
You talked about patches sounding great in the room, but not fitting into the mix. I think that's a big part of it. If you're talking about pre-programmed presets, those are often meant to wow the GC demo crowd, not fit into a dense mix. If you're talking about patches you're programming, then I think that just has to be done in the context of the track you're working on. Something that will work perfectly in a track will often sound pretty small on it's own.
You also talked about liking the ability to tweak a soft-synth. I'm not a great keyboard player, so if I'm tracking a part with an analog synth, I'll have it connected via MIDI and do a first, general pass, then do additional tweaking/programming while listening back, then finally record the audio on a final pass where I would do filter sweeps and any left hand controller work.
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Post by russellcreekps on Jun 8, 2024 21:27:12 GMT -6
I think it really depends on what type of music…in the genre’s I generally work in, they’re atmospheric, not upfront. In that case, I love what hardware vintage style tube pre’s and eq’s do to get 3d depth and tuck it into the track, and then if a little brightening is needed afterward, a little outboard saturation.
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Post by bgrotto on Jun 8, 2024 23:20:20 GMT -6
Biggest difficulty with tracking synths is selecting appropriate sounds. Like anything, 'huge and awesome' in isolation is usually 'too big and overpowering' in a mix. The good news is: it's a synth! You have all the control. Listen in context, and tweak those filters and oscillators and envelopes.
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Post by christophert on Jun 9, 2024 2:12:12 GMT -6
Synths love tape
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 10, 2024 10:50:02 GMT -6
I find when I get into synth things that there's often A LOT happening in the low end that isn't helping. Hi pass filters, even simple one's on stock EQ can help. I'll sometimes take the PT EQIII one band, and set it for low pass and start sweeping until I hear the sounds I'm looking for, and then switch it to high pass. Filters and multi band compression can really help tame the extremes.
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Post by svart on Jun 10, 2024 13:58:33 GMT -6
I don't play synths usually, but I've mixed a handful.
Biggest thing I've noticed is waaaay too much bandwidth. The low-low lows eat way too much headroom than any other instrument. I ruthlessly chop off anything below about 50hz to start unless there's some effect i'm needing from something below that. Often I go all the way up to 80hz or more.
The high frequencies can be too much as well, so on goes the LPF around 10K to start and then move down from there until I start to miss something. Often I'm chopping down to the 7-8K range without really noticing anything missing in the mix.
That's the starting point. I also often notice that the mids will be quieter sounding than the lows and highs, so I'm sometimes peaking EQ in the mids for notes that I want to make sure to hear.
In any case, the resulting audio is limited by a few dB to keep notes from poking in and out too much.
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 10, 2024 18:43:06 GMT -6
Couldn’t you track midi as well, and then reamp if needed?
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