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Post by russellcreekps on May 25, 2024 20:05:59 GMT -6
I’ll preface this by saying, I’m no expert in the game, but I’ve learned a couple things over the years…I’ve tried all the standard stuff on this that I know, hoping maybe there’s some tricks y’all may have for thickening/darkening a lead vocal in post. This is a male Americana singer/songwriter client I’m working with…main reference for production is Colter Wall ‘Kate McCannon’, I think he really wants to sound like that but his voice isn’t as deep. Actually, he’s got an odd voice to treat in a way that I’ve not come across before. When he sings live, he sounds fairly full and deep (not to the extent of Wall), but for some reason when he gets on a mic in the studio, the high end gets piercing to the ears. When setting up we tried all my (vocal) mic’s, B67/269 v2 (old 67 setting), TM1, NU100K and R92. Went with the R92 because it was the only thing that softened the issue somewhat…looking back to our tracking session, I now wish I had tried the R92’s darker side, but I didn’t and re-tracking is a last resort at this point  . The chain was dbBooster, WT72, ELOP+, AS EQP-1A (just tone, no eq setting engaged), B2 Bomber wide open. Still producing the final elements of the track on my end, but the vocal has been bugging me so I’ve spent far too much time messing with that instead of getting the rest of the production done. No doubt it’s better but I can’t get it right where I want it. Some things I’ve tried and still have in the ITB chain in one way or another….starting with surgical EQ, Mixwave CA-70S on a few different settings to tame the high end and thicken overall, 1176 rev a to pin it in place, MJUC light setting for thickening, Fatso added for further thickening, Voxbox just for light de-essing at 9K, and a little sparkle/air eq at the end (this on or off doesn’t make the issue any better or worse). Appreciate any tips…y’all helped me a great deal on the last mix topic I had! |
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Post by sean on May 25, 2024 20:26:28 GMT -6
Listening to your reference what I hear is a lot of low mids, in the 800Hz range, not "low lows", in the voice. I'd probably take all the processing you have off, and just boost some 800 or 1K and see what it does. I think that sound works in that particular song because the main acoustic guitar has a lot of 200-300Hz stuff going on. Also, it's a very dynamic song, there's probably not as much compression as you think, so try automating instead of compressing to level it out.
You might be working against yourself trying to change the tone of the vocal so much before you have the arrangement around it finished.
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Post by chessparov on May 25, 2024 20:42:45 GMT -6
Have you tried lowering the Key?
As a Baritenor here, sometimes...
Some keys sound better higher/lower for a given.
IMHO try some different ones...
Chris
P.S. I have a BZ BU67 MKI BTW. I leave it on the Default OG 67 setting.
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Post by andersmv on May 25, 2024 20:48:58 GMT -6
Oeksound Soothe is my favorite. Your can set it to do more of a de-esser thing, or more subtle with it to smooth things over a bit. If you set it right, it will stay out of the way and not do anything until something harsh happens. If you want something a little more traditional in style that will just warm things up and give you some nice color, the new MixWave plug-in of the Coil Audio CA-70 is really special. Try it first in your chain before everything else, the Negative Feedback control can do wonders.
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Post by Tbone81 on May 25, 2024 21:12:38 GMT -6
RND 542 gets used here all the time for that. Using the silk blue driven hard, always adds a nice thickness. Also, running it through the audioscape vcomp before the 542 adds tones of low end. Not sure what hardware you have available…but those are my main tricks.
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Post by russellcreekps on May 25, 2024 21:33:37 GMT -6
sean and andersmv, will definitely give those a try tomorrow, thanks for the tips! chessparov, thanks, good thought for the next track I do with him, but unfortunately tracking this again is pretty much out of the question unless it’s something I absolutely can’t salvage, which I don’t think is the case. Tbone81, I don’t have a lot of hardware, but am thinking of running it back out to the Bomber and raising the attenuation for a smoothing of the high end. Also thinking as well I may just run it through the AS Pultecs and mess around until I get it where I want it. Only comp I have other than the ELOP+ is a D-Comp, which I love for it’s uses, but I find it does introduce some high end in a way that would likely make the issue worse. Have had my eyes on the RND tape emulators for awhile, something to think about in the future for sure!
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Post by the other mark williams on May 25, 2024 21:49:07 GMT -6
russellcreekps I love everything others have said so far, but something I don't think anyone else has mentioned jumps out immediately at me: Since you have a hardware (Audioscape) EQP-1A there, you should try it for rolling off some of the top. Try both the 10k and even the 5k. That can seriously work wonders IME. (EDIT - just noticed you yourself mentioned trying the Pultec! Sorry I missed that in your post just above mine!) In terms of how you tracked him for this song, I also have and love the WT-72, but given what you're struggling with on his voice, in the future I would try a Neve style pre instead, especially if it's a BAE or a Stam with Sowters on the output transformers - that'll help give some more heft in the low mids and darken the top a bit as compared to the WT-72. Next time I would also try a good dynamic on him (M88, 441, RE16, maybe even SM7 - sorry, Ward). He may be suffering a bit from impostor syndrome in the studio if his studio vox are that different from his stage vocals. (He also may be too close to the mic in the studio...) Anything you can do to make it feel more like a stage performance for him (including a dynamic mic, maybe monitors in the control room instead of headphones, maybe even a couple of choice "audience members" if it helps his performance. Obviously, that's all for next time (hopefully you'll have that opportunity!).
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Post by russellcreekps on May 25, 2024 22:19:57 GMT -6
@the other mark williams the Stam does look attractive at that price for two channels…API is my only other pre at the moment (and the Apollo pres). Great notes on tracking and mic’s, will keep that in mind!
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Post by thehightenor on May 26, 2024 2:38:03 GMT -6
Track with a 47 > CA-70 > Retro STA Level - HEDD 192 (touch of tape knob)  Failing that, put on a gentle LPF at 11K roll off hi’s to taste then parallel compression (with or without further LPF) and finally dynamic EQ just pulling down any pokey frequencies giving the impression of overt brightness usually around 7-8K. Getting it right at the tracking phase is obviously the best approach. |
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Post by niklas1073 on May 26, 2024 3:58:23 GMT -6
A lot comes down to the vocal chain and mic choice obviously, and your chain should not be robbing any fatness and darkness per se. As mentioned earlier in the thread eq will be a good friend of yours here. If the darker sound is not your usual aesthetic it can even feel bizarre at times how little top end you need and how much low mid and mid push you might need. Also a very thorough search for harshness and “bad” frequencies in the upper register and turning them down will fatten up and darken while evening out the vocal plenty. After this I would reach for a simple plain old vocal parallel compression with 1176 and pultec combination smashing it lightly, blend in a little and you could be closer to what you are going for. BUT this does not rectify a sub par performance, only enhances a good one. Reading your initial post, I start to wonder, could it be a production issue? Are you trying to take the vocals where they don’t thrive? Are you building the production around his voice or trying to implement him into a pre produced concept where his voice does not match the reference? Just a thought, sometimes the issue might be where we least expect it and therefor the tools at hand might not bend for our will… maybe?
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Post by kcatthedog on May 26, 2024 5:42:46 GMT -6
Lots of good advice here.
I understand the itch, but sometimes the scratch is the opposite, especially with eq, my point is have you experimented with tweaking non vocal parts of the mix?
br]
I know it seems illogical, but maybe you can finesse the texture of the mix elsewhere and maybe live with the vocal?
Good luck!
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Ox Han
Junior Member
Posts: 93
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Post by Ox Han on May 26, 2024 6:44:31 GMT -6
An eq plugin and LPF might do the trick.
I use the UA oxide and Waves j37 to thicken/rough up vocals. I use the j37 to add slight distortion by increasing the input/output gain ratio and something similar with the UA oxide to add thickness and touch of grit on vocals. I add the grit/warmth to taste
I’ve never used the mics you reference but a bright mic is a bright mic.
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Post by ragan on May 26, 2024 8:47:06 GMT -6
I would take all that processing off and start with multi-band compression. That can work wonders. FabFilter Pro-MB is my go-to but any multi-band compressor should work. First boost and find the most piercing, annoying frequencies during the track and then ditch the boost and set the comp to clamp down on those frequencies. Take that as your new starting point and see how much of that pile of plug-ins you need after that.
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Post by drumsound on May 26, 2024 9:38:20 GMT -6
I think simplifying the chain might be a good idea. Start with some sort of 'thinkener' compressor, and get things in the neighborhood. Then worry about EQ and just add an EQ and see where it takes you.
If you have time, maybe take a break at that point. work on something else, or take a walk. clear your head, recalibrate yourself then listen but don't touch anything.
Then evaluate the next step.
I'll also echo Mark's suggestion of a good dynamic next time. Hell, I got really good vocals with an sE V7 on an EP recently! An M88 on another singer made the verses of one song much cooler than the 414eb that killed on the song before it.
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Post by bossanova on May 26, 2024 11:50:38 GMT -6
As someone with a darker/deeper voice, I can say that it sounds very different close-up on a dynamic mic coming through a PA (with that extra bit of low end womp) then it does close up in a studio situation where the wrong mic placement results in the good mids not being well represented and all of those harsh mouth and throat frequencies really grating on the ears. I also personally sing better through a well-mixed stage monitor than I do in headphones or in a dead room.
If you're already stuck that way and retracking isn't an option, I would say do what you can with Soothe and a low pass, and just try to fill in those missing frequencies with the production around it. One of my go to tricks is using a tight mono doubler on a dull vocal (or something like a 30 ips delay) to bring back some presence that got taken out during cleaning or is missing from the original altogether. It might not sound natural but if the original is a wash, do what you have to do and then go full processed with double/delay/verb as needed.
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Post by chessparov on May 26, 2024 12:59:05 GMT -6
How about the 'ol "Vocal Doubling" tricks?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,086 
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2024 17:14:14 GMT -6
Mic choice.
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Post by bossanova on May 26, 2024 17:48:54 GMT -6
Oh, and if you have T-Racks you could run it through the darker Mic models in Mic Room and see if you like any of the sounds you get. Worse comes to worst it's not better than what you already have and you only spend 5 to 10 minutes on it.
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Post by WKG on May 27, 2024 9:58:36 GMT -6
PSP E27 works great for this.
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Post by drbill on May 27, 2024 10:35:22 GMT -6
If it's already recorded an excellent tool is Density. Does what the name says.
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Post by russellcreekps on May 27, 2024 19:46:52 GMT -6
Thanks y’all, so many great tips! Back to my day job during the week but will jump back in to these on the weekend. Can’t wait…Cheers!
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Post by viciousbliss on May 27, 2024 21:12:57 GMT -6
Try placing Satin first in the chain on the recorded vocal using the Studer A800 GP9 preset. Drive it into the red a little. PA 902 with the male vocal preset tweaked to how you want it. Then whatever compressor you're into. I like to use the PA Green Shadow Hills most of the time. The way it can control stuff, make it sound bigger, and also smooth things out is why the Shadow Hills is my fav compressor in plugin or hardware form. Then try Dopamine with pretty close to the default settings but 100% wet. In between these, you could try stuff like Fix Doubler, Fix Phaser, Little Altar Boy, Sonnox Vox Doubler, whatever you want to try. On the vocal bus I repeat most of this but take out the 902 and add Black Box MS in its place. Sometimes I'll stick an H3000 plugin on and use a variation of the Barry's Stereo Spreader preset. I don't do much of any eq on vocals. As far as FX, my favs are SP2016, UAD 480 for the Effects as a reverse reverb type thing, Cooper Timecube, Softube Atlantis, Seventh Heaven Pro, Capitol Chambers occasionally, Inspirata sometimes, Sonnox Vox Widener here and there. And I don't put anything across the Master Fader/2buss during a mix. Oh, and use Good Dither at the end. The way I do things, plenty of stuff impacts the vocal. If a vocal is harsh or has problems, a lot of times that can be canceled out by the instruments. The dither helps keep things smoother too by taking the truncation noise out of the equation. Been quite a few times where something I did across a mix or a bus was causing a harsh vocal.
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Post by svart on May 28, 2024 6:03:59 GMT -6
I second using multiband compression. Set the low band for the frequencies you want to boost and go for it.
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. The chain was dbBooster, WT72, ELOP+, AS EQP-1A (just tone, no eq setting engaged), B2 Bomber wide open.
