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Post by Johnkenn on May 22, 2024 16:06:44 GMT -6
the bounce/mixdown? I've always found this to be a thing...I bounce my mix, then open it in itunes and I immediately hear more reverb. Like it's too wet. Didn't seem that way in the daw. It happens over and over...is this just me imagining things or am I hearing something different?
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Post by Johnkenn on May 22, 2024 16:09:31 GMT -6
Or I just bounced and thought the midside thing I had on some ooos was too much...didn't seem that way in the DAW. Maybe it's just things I'm not listening for on the bounce down...but it seems to be spacial things
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Post by copperx on May 22, 2024 16:19:46 GMT -6
Import the track into your DAW and flip the phase. You'll get a 100% objective answer that way.
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Post by wiz on May 22, 2024 16:37:57 GMT -6
Import the track into your DAW and flip the phase. You'll get a 100% objective answer that way. it won't null (in case you didn't know that) because reverb is different each time...unless you print the verb, and any other effects or things like drum sampler VI's that might be different each time... Try it with printing everything in the session to audio and then see cheers Wiz
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Post by Darren Boling on May 22, 2024 17:03:53 GMT -6
the bounce/mixdown? I've always found this to be a thing...I bounce my mix, then open it in itunes and I immediately hear more reverb. Like it's too wet. Didn't seem that way in the daw. It happens over and over...is this just me imagining things or am I hearing something different? Did itunes sneak in the spacial audio setting on you? I feel like with every update I have to go turn that shit off again.
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Post by longscale on May 22, 2024 17:06:09 GMT -6
Typically for me this boils down to a routing issue. Things I'm listening to are not going to the mixdown tracks in ways I'm expecting.
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Post by FM77 on May 22, 2024 17:29:17 GMT -6
I deal with this regularly as well John, and nearly posted the same question last week...out of curiosity sakes.
The mix is never precise to playback for me. Small, sure, but sometime very significant, despite being minor out of context. Has never been a consistent 'render' in 20+ years with Nuendo/Cubase. Even within the same playback system.
In the 2000s I would mix to a Masterlink. I feel like going back to an external mixdown deck just for experimenting. I do have 1/2" tape if I really get desperate.
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Post by Dan on May 22, 2024 17:45:11 GMT -6
Always render online and in real time. Always have a 24 or 16 bit, tdpf dither as your final insert. Always render at the same buffer you’re mixing at. Always play back through a 24 or 16 bit dither. If your mixes do not have any random fx or modulations, they should null down to dither noise with playback from the daw.
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Post by Quint on May 22, 2024 18:51:04 GMT -6
Once upon a time, there were people who swore that you had to bounce down realtime and send that out thru a pair of DA, and then either back into a pair of AD or into a standalone box capture recorder.
I get that, by doing that, you eliminate any possibility that some funny business is going on, because what you're hearing while monitoring real time is also what is getting recorded as a final mix down. Once upon a time, before DAWs, this was obviously the only way you could do it, but I wonder if such an approach is still relevant in DAWs in 2024.
I have a Tascam DA-3000 for standalone mixdown capture, so I can and do use this method anyway, but I have wondered about all of this sort of stuff from time to time.
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Post by kbsmoove on May 22, 2024 21:13:16 GMT -6
I always have hardware on the 2mix, have that coming into a stereo track in protools, then send that out to monitoring. When I’m ready to print a mix, it gets recorded onto the audio track then exported. No surprises.
Plus all mix revisions are readily available in the session, in time with the session. So referencing old mixes or matching hardware settings is a breeze.
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Post by drbill on May 22, 2024 21:40:04 GMT -6
Always render online and in real time. This is what I do, recording back to a print track inside PT via internal busses with hardware on them. Always sounds identical.
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Post by bgrotto on May 22, 2024 21:50:20 GMT -6
Another vote for printing mixes back into the session.
Extra credit: do the same with the roughs while you’re tracking. That way during mix, you can reference the roughs to hear if you’ve undone any of the original goodness. Just keep the “print” track in input mode while working, and toggle to the older mix by pressing opt k.
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Post by Blackdawg on May 22, 2024 21:56:30 GMT -6
Print mixes here too.
But there is also probably some psychological aspects of listening while working in the daw vs not.
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Post by theshea on May 22, 2024 23:25:38 GMT -6
i always listen with quicktime. sounds identical as my mix. hate having 100+ mix versions in my itunes library.
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Post by thehightenor on May 23, 2024 2:29:33 GMT -6
Cubase.
Render offline Record back into a track.
Both null to silence with the original.
So speaking for Cubase mixes are identical when mixed down.
What can change is when you Master and start raising levels with more compression and limiting as then the ratios of ambience etc start to change so I always throw a limiter plugin (just for monitoring purposes) near the end of a mix to see how the mix is going to survive the next stage of production.
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Post by mcirish on May 23, 2024 6:13:02 GMT -6
Is it possible that some of the effects being used playback realtime at no oversampling and the a final bounce increases the oversampling? Maybe something like that could be going on? Personally, I don't find that to be a problem. My problem is that everyone I think I'm done, I find something else I want to tweak. :-)
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Post by thirdeye on May 23, 2024 6:25:06 GMT -6
Another vote for printing mixes back into the session. Extra credit: do the same with the roughs while you’re tracking. That way during mix, you can reference the roughs to hear if you’ve undone any of the original goodness. Just keep the “print” track in input mode while working, and toggle to the older mix by pressing opt k. I pretty much do the same, except I route the "roughs" to a dedicated pair of DA that input separately into my Xmon monitor controller. That way I can switch between the rough and current mix there. I always print in real time back into the session. Sounds the same.
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Post by Dan on May 23, 2024 6:34:08 GMT -6
Cubase. Render offline Record back into a track. Both null to silence with the original. So speaking for Cubase mixes are identical when mixed down. What can change is when you Master and start raising levels with more compression and limiting as then the ratios of ambience etc start to change so I always throw a limiter plugin (just for monitoring purposes) near the end of a mix to see how the mix is going to survive the next stage of production. that depends if you are using time based fx or not, have automation, or limiting. Many effects will not render with the same sound including reverbs with no modulation, compressors, and limiters and the plugins align everything and report their latency to the daw. I have experienced this breaking down with offline rendering, where the quite good peak limiter fails to catch a transient that I wanted smacked down but it does so with online renders. I experienced this last year when using Molot GE as a mastering processor including its limiter / soft clipper. I’ve experienced it with the Oxford Limiter too.
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Post by doubledog on May 23, 2024 7:48:01 GMT -6
I wouldn't trust iTunes as far as I could throw it. Can you play it back through the Pro Tools browser/workspace? that always sounds the same for me.
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Post by svart on May 23, 2024 7:49:19 GMT -6
Can't say I've heard anything like that in years. I think I've heard stuff like that before, but I'm almost certain that my case was monitoring issues.
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Post by svart on May 23, 2024 7:54:15 GMT -6
Once upon a time, there were people who swore that you had to bounce down realtime and send that out thru a pair of DA, and then either back into a pair of AD or into a standalone box capture recorder. I get that, by doing that, you eliminate any possibility that some funny business is going on, because what you're hearing while monitoring real time is also what is getting recorded as a final mix down. Once upon a time, before DAWs, this was obviously the only way you could do it, but I wonder if such an approach is still relevant in DAWs in 2024. I have a Tascam DA-3000 for standalone mixdown capture, so I can and do use this method anyway, but I have wondered about all of this sort of stuff from time to time. There have definitely been times in the past where plugs have had issues with full speed offline renders. Some of the highly oversampling ones and reverbs have had issues for me a decade ago, but I haven't run into any that have those issues anymore. I can do full-speed offline and 1x online renders and they sound identical these days. One thing I still do is only render out to full quality and then do a batch conversion to get the MP3 and CD quality versions from the HD version that I rendered, but I do this mainly because I have batch settings to do it quickly. The conversions seem to be a lot faster than the offline render overall so even though it's a sidestep process, it's faster than rendering twice more.
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Post by viciousbliss on May 24, 2024 2:40:48 GMT -6
Anyone know a way to do real-time bounces or printing when you keep running out of cpu cycles?
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Post by bossanova on May 24, 2024 16:46:19 GMT -6
Usually no using Reaper and Foobar, but I have experienced what Dan mentioned where a limiter will behave differently (missing a transient that it caught previously or vice versa) on separate, full speed passes.
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Post by jaba on May 25, 2024 15:10:58 GMT -6
Always export in real-time in Cubase. Can't say I've noticed any difference in sound but never forensically checked.
I can't understand why a slight difference in reverb would change anything in real life though. Unless it's a lead instrument and even then.... Besides, unless you're mixing the song in one pass, every playback will be different. Some timed flanging I get, but reverb? Sounds like a plate on a snare every time to me.
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