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Post by easyrider on Apr 30, 2024 2:42:09 GMT -6
I would be very interested in how others on here,with far more experience of these things, Mic a 4x12.
Here is my journey…
I bought a Neve DPX to track through…
I tired a SM57 and while perfectly OK didn’t really satisfy me….After some research and discussion last week I bought a Beyer M88…It’s far more satisfying but I did have to watch the distance from the speaker cloth and brought the M88 about 3inches back…as I was getting issues with the proximity effect.
Sound good to my ears…job done…but I like to learn and tinker and was just wondering your approach when mic-ing up a 4x12?
cheers for any input…
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Post by horizoneer on Apr 30, 2024 2:45:33 GMT -6
I pick one speaker (the best one if I can discern a difference). Usually use a condenser and dynamic as close together as I can get them in a spot where the condenser sounds best, and use the dynamic just to add some character in the mids, it's usually about 5db quieter than the condenser.
Best position is just down to what I'm hearing on the day.
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Post by drumsound on Apr 30, 2024 8:04:15 GMT -6
I'm super basic with guitar speakers. I usually want a dynamic mic (or two) right up on the grill cloth, I think this is best for timing with other players because it's getting the sound as close to when the player hits the strings as possible.
I start aiming the mic(s) where the dust cap and cone meet, and possibly adjust from there.
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Post by robo on Apr 30, 2024 8:32:20 GMT -6
Close mics get you good isolation, and sometimes work great in a mix, but don’t come close to capturing the experience of playing through a multi-speaker cab.
You’ll find as you move back from the cabinet (do this at low volume), there’s a spot where it blends into one combined sound - usually a few feet back, like where a guitarist might stand. Try putting a mic there and it will be a lot closer to the sound in the room.
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Post by svart on Apr 30, 2024 8:42:27 GMT -6
Generally start with a 57. Pick a speaker in the cab, put the 57 right on the cloth, pointed right at where the cone and the dust cap meet. Turn your amp to mostly mid settings and then listen in the control room for a minute while someone plays. Now go move the mic away from the cap slightly, towards the middle of the cone for less highs and more mids. I generally end up somewhere near the cap, usually within about 3". Now go back and tweak the amp.
Most people tweak the amp first and what happens is that they dial in tons of high end to get clarity and it ends up waaaaaay too fizzy and then they want a different mic.. Then they end up chasing the tail of the dragon. Amps and speakers sound very different to the ear in the room than they do to a mic on a speaker. Set the amp how it sounds best through the mic. Players tend to set way too much top and bottom end because it sounds good in the room, but this is the opposite of what you want for recording. When you end up doing HPF/LPF on the track later because it's all fizz and rumble, you'll be left with nothing.
Set the mic for best balance first, then tweak, never the other way around.
Don't even worry about choosing the best speaker in the cab until you've learned how to identify where to put the mic. Then once you found the best spot on ONE speaker and the best tone for the amp, then try other speakers in the same spot and listen to the differences. Some speakers will have drastically different tones. Even the same speaker have different tones from one side of the cone to the other. That's why I tend to make people play through my cabs, if possible, because I've spent a lot of time over the years moving mics around on them and I sort of know where they sound best to me.
The other magic here is a R121. Right in the middle of the dust cap. Move it back about a fist-width from the cloth. This will work for most clean tones. Put it at the seam between the cap and cone if you're using distortion, and then move it around some. You'll get a lot less variation than with the 57, but it'll be noticeable.
I used to multi-mic cabs, but I've lost interest in doing that. You end up messing around with blending way too much and the phase issues become too apparent, too often, and usually only one mic gets chosen anyway.
One other piece of advice.. Never sit in front of the amp trying to find the right spot while the player is playing. Even with headphones your ears will get fatigued and the rumble and leakage will make it seem different than it is.
Most musicians will tell you it sounds great at the time, but that's because their ears are blown too. They like loud. Loud is fun. So don't ask them if they approve..
Loud is not good for your ears, nor your recording. An amp will be just above talking volume for most recordings. If it's shaking the walls, then something wrong is being overcompensated for.
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Post by johneppstein on Apr 30, 2024 9:42:17 GMT -6
I would be very interested in how others on here,with far more experience of these things, Mic a 4x12. Here is my journey… I bought a Neve DPX to track through… I tired a SM57 and while perfectly OK didn’t really satisfy me….After some research and discussion last week I bought a Beyer M88…It’s far more satisfying but I did have to watch the distance from the speaker cloth and brought the M88 about 3inches back…as I was getting issues with the proximity effect. Sound good to my ears…job done…but I like to learn and tinker and was just wondering your approach when mic-ing up a 4x12? cheers for any input… The same way I'd mic any cab - select the best sounding speaker and mic it from the edge (roughly), pointed at the dust cap to get an even pickup.
I don't use more than one mic because it gets phasey. I'll use either a 57 or 545 (copper VC), or a Beyer M88 or M201 if they're available.
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Post by smashlord on Apr 30, 2024 9:57:48 GMT -6
It depends on the desired result, but generally I would start with an SM57 right where the cap meets the cone and adjust from there. Move away if you need less top/more mids. Pull away/move closer depending on how much lowend you want. Angle it if you want less attack (for leads). From there, usually choose a second mic depending on SM57 seems to be missing. If it needs girth, R-121 or R92 is usually the ticket. Mids and bite, MD421. If the amp has a strong frown face curve, a lone M160 can be great. I also like the Soyuz 023 and 017 FET alot when you want detailed top without all the brashness for mid-gain crunch tones.
I'd say 70% of the time, the SM57/MD421 combo wins. I have M201s, M88s, etc... but I find those two dynamics, properly placed, still just do the thing.
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Post by kbsmoove on Apr 30, 2024 13:25:44 GMT -6
Loud is not good for your ears, nor your recording. An amp will be just above talking volume for most recordings. If it's shaking the walls, then something wrong is being overcompensated for. loud=bad is a pretty wild statement when so many classic guitar tones come from cranked marshall/fender/vox amps at much louder than talking volume. many of my amps sound pretty unremarkable at moderate volumes, and really shine at high volumes. sure, some tones don't get better with a lot of volume. but some are simply hard to achieve without it. as far as micing a 4x12, there is no wrong or right way to do it, and it is often genre/tone dependent. and, what kind of cab? celestion v30s and g12t-75s are so wildly different sounding - you could be happy with a 57 on a v30 but might never be happy with any mic on a t75, which is how i feel about those particular speakers. if i want the guitars to be a focal point, these days i'm usually large condenser right up on the cloth, just outside of the dustcap (assuming a typical ~2" dustcap. for a ~4" dustcap i have to fuss with placement a lot more). mics of choice are heiserman type-19, sony c38b or c48. if i need more low end i will blend a ribbon closer to the edge of the cone, or switch the pattern to fig8. if the guitars are less of a standout instrument on the track, i'm usually happy with any of these: 57, m88, e906, md409, m160, m500 (especially with full bandwidth transformer mod), and plenty of other options. same rules apply, start on the grill just outside of the dustcap, adjust to taste until it sits right in the mix, often backing off a few inches to thin it out a bit, closer to center if it needs to be brighter. for less exaggerated tones, i like a ribbon+LDC 12-18" from the speakers. get the phase right and this can sound like youre standing in the room with the amp, which is great for some stuff.
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Post by phdamage on Apr 30, 2024 14:29:06 GMT -6
Once I started backing mics off the grill, this became a lot easier for me. I usually pair a dark ribbon with a condenser or dynamic. Go to is usually an Oktavamod Apex 205 with either a Stam tube 87 or a Beesneez BU67. Sometimes I sub a 441 or m160 or m88.
I’m usually a good 6” off the grill at least. Seems way less finicky to me with positioning
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Post by jacobamerritt on Apr 30, 2024 16:48:54 GMT -6
I pretty much never close mic an amp - I get that it's a cool sound, but I like the sound of a mic backed off a few feet, a bit more natural and 'real'. Feels more fitting for the type of records I make. Though I do like close mic'ing fuzz lead guitar parts, and DI'ing electric guitars so... ignore me I guess.
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Post by Ward on Apr 30, 2024 17:09:33 GMT -6
The best speaker with a little edge: R121, dead center on the dust cap, 1 foot (30 centimeters back) into a Grace 101 into an LA3a The best sounding warmest speaker, 1/2 way between the dustup and the edge, 30º angle 6" (15 centimeters) back, SM57 into a CAPI312 into a V3a.
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Post by bikescene on Apr 30, 2024 17:40:32 GMT -6
I’ve got about 4 speakers that I typically mic in closed back cabs: the Greenback, G12H75 Creamback, V30, and CL80. My mics are usually pointed in between the cap edge and the middle of the cone, depending on the amp and speaker combo.
I tend to like the SM57, I5, M201, M69, and M88 closed to grille. The closer to the cap, the more likely I’ll like the off axis sound. The MD421 is nice off axis against the grille. The E906 works well about an inch off the grille to contact the proximity effect. I place my ribbons at least 3-4” back.
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Post by Dan on Apr 30, 2024 17:40:57 GMT -6
1) Sm57 on grill pointing toward but not directly at dust cap 2) ksm137/141 like a 57 but back off a bit for sdc. 141 is fuller range and captures more of the room. 3) at4033 backed off is sick
Take a di pre pedal always. so many modern amps are crap. So many pedals are crap. Always get the guitarist to sign off that his tone is coming out of the cab and in his monitoring. You don’t want to be blamed for that. You can always reamp later.
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Post by bgrotto on Apr 30, 2024 21:33:53 GMT -6
I run some pink noise thru the amp set flat, or just use its inherent hiss, and sweep a mic (usually a 57 to start) around while I listen in headphones till I hear things snap into focus. Double-check it sound good in CR, and if so, I flip its polarity, add a second mic (usually either a PL-10 or some kind of condenser), and listen again in headphones while I sweep it around looking for the best phase cancellation.
Back in the CR, flip the 57 polarity back, balance the two to sound good, and get to work dialing in the tone on the amp and with some pedals.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Apr 30, 2024 21:54:38 GMT -6
One of the first things I learned in pro audio was as cool as they look the problem with 4x12 cabinets is there were 4 speakers in them. A stack can be cool and provide the power to knock your socks off, but in most cases if you ever measure the 4 12’s individually you will find the sound of a 4x12 is really the sound of comb filtering. I have yet to measure any 4 stamped frame guitar speakers that measure the same. So often the reason someone puts that 57 so close is to try to reduce the level of those other 3 speakers. Honestly the way I got heads to sound their absolute best was to have a couple of single driver cabinets to mic up.
The other thing about a single 12 vs 4 is the same gain settings you reduce the actual spl by 6 dB.
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Post by okcrecording on Apr 30, 2024 22:54:53 GMT -6
One of the first things I learned in pro audio was as cool as they look the problem with 4x12 cabinets is there were 4 speakers in them. A stack can be cool and provide the power to knock your socks off, but in most cases if you ever measure the 4 12’s individually you will find the sound of a 4x12 is really the sound of comb filtering. I have yet to measure any 4 stamped frame guitar speakers that measure the same. So often the reason someone puts that 57 so close is to try to reduce the level of those other 3 speakers. Honestly the way I got heads to sound their absolute best was to have a couple of single driver cabinets to mic up. The other thing about a single 12 vs 4 is the same gain settings you reduce the actual spl by 6 dB. Very true. Another thing to add is speaker excursion or making the speaker move some air. I'm not suggesting setting it to 11, (although sometimes this is needed) making the speaker work helps. Same as eric this is why I have about 6 different 1x12 cabs and a Mesa 2x12 to handle the really beefy tones. It keeps the volume down while still allowing the speaker to work without destroying your hearing. This also depends on the style of music you are recording. But for rock/metal/fusion I start there.
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Post by bgrotto on May 1, 2024 0:12:08 GMT -6
One of the first things I learned in pro audio was as cool as they look the problem with 4x12 cabinets is there were 4 speakers in them. A stack can be cool and provide the power to knock your socks off, but in most cases if you ever measure the 4 12’s individually you will find the sound of a 4x12 is really the sound of comb filtering. I have yet to measure any 4 stamped frame guitar speakers that measure the same. So often the reason someone puts that 57 so close is to try to reduce the level of those other 3 speakers. Honestly the way I got heads to sound their absolute best was to have a couple of single driver cabinets to mic up. The other thing about a single 12 vs 4 is the same gain settings you reduce the actual spl by 6 dB. I like the focus of a cab with fewer speakers, but a 4x12 delivers a specific woof and low end punch that is pretty crucial for some styles.
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Post by niklas1073 on May 1, 2024 2:40:44 GMT -6
Ribbon or LDC 4-10” from the speaker that sounds the best. Usually pretty much straight on or slightly off axis. I just don't like close miking with 57 or such. I don’t want to record the speaker, i want the sound in the room.
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Post by easyrider on May 1, 2024 4:24:37 GMT -6
Great info thanks for the insight everyone…
What would be a good mic to pair with my M88?
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Post by EmRR on May 1, 2024 5:09:08 GMT -6
Usually a ribbon 18”+ back, lately I like an EV 666 close, off center, and depending on the thing needed a shotgun across the room can win. Sometimes the winner is……a dimed Champ instead!
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Post by bikescene on May 1, 2024 7:46:34 GMT -6
easyrider Could you share which amp/speaker combination you’re tying to capture? I’m a fairly recent user of the M88 too. It is a thicker sound than my other go to mics for guitar cab (SM57, M201, I5), so I can see the need to bring it back a few inches. My main recording amps for dirty sounds are Plexi and JCM800-inspired. They have less lows than something like a Mesa Rectifier, so I can get away with placing the M88 on the grille. On my Tweed Deluxe, with a Jensen-type speaker in a much smaller cab than a 4x12, I have found it helpful to move the M88 back an inch or two for my tastes. I like blending mics when an SM57 doesn’t have enough meat. I’ve liked the M88 on its own.
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Post by Ward on May 1, 2024 7:51:38 GMT -6
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Post by nnajar on May 1, 2024 11:14:16 GMT -6
Mic it in front with the 57/royer/421/whatever you like and then stick an LDC behind the cab , just under the top, pointed down at a 45 deg angle. Mix it in to replace the missing resonance you aren’t capturing with the close mic.
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Post by drumsound on May 1, 2024 22:24:07 GMT -6
Great info thanks for the insight everyone… What would be a good mic to pair with my M88? An old EV PL or RE series. AKG D1000e, ATM25 or 23he, EV 408/468
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Post by easyrider on May 2, 2024 2:48:52 GMT -6
Great info thanks for the insight everyone… What would be a good mic to pair with my M88? An old EV PL or RE series. AKG D1000e, ATM25 or 23he, EV 408/468 Thanks for the input.
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