hoot
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hoot on Apr 29, 2024 0:42:34 GMT -6
Hey all!
A client asked about mixing on a vintage console, but can’t pay the price tag for me to be in a room like that for a while.
I know the outboard EQs/comps and center section is where the real magic is, but I’m considering a super-short booking in which I throw faders to Unity with the directs opened up and “commit” a previously prepped session with ProTools IO inserts across every track. Nothing aggressive, just a simple pass of the stems through one round of channel strip. Alicia Keys meets Jack Johnson kinda songs.
That said, my place of work (where I’d get best deal) only has 9000J and 4000G consoles and I have a Silver Bullet at home (which I’ll be mixing through). My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight?
I’ll probably have to do both to know for sure, but any thoughts?
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Post by antipodesjosh on Apr 29, 2024 2:56:43 GMT -6
Could run your stems through some preamps on Access Analog perhaps?
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 29, 2024 4:19:15 GMT -6
Hmm, or what if you master to a real Ampex 102?
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hoot
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hoot on Apr 29, 2024 4:35:38 GMT -6
Hmm, or what if you master to a real Ampex 102? Then I call trakworxmastering !! Could run your stems through some preamps on Access Analog perhaps? If i was looking to try something new then I would, but I have a lot quite on hand |
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Post by FM77 on Apr 29, 2024 4:41:09 GMT -6
Hey all! A client asked about mixing on a vintage console, but can’t pay the price tag for me to be in a room like that for a while. I know the outboard EQs/comps and center section is where the real magic is, but I’m considering a super-short booking in which I throw faders to Unity with the directs opened up and “commit” a previously prepped session with ProTools IO inserts across every track. Nothing aggressive, just a simple pass of the stems through one round of channel strip. Alicia Keys meets Jack Johnson kinda songs. That said, my place of work (where I’d get best deal) only has 9000J and 4000G consoles and I have a Silver Bullet at home (which I’ll be mixing through). My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? I’ll probably have to do both to know for sure, but any thoughts? You will be better off educating your client on the waste of his time and money. They are romanticizing an idea. Running audio signal through the I/O of a console at unity will not offer any reasonable benefit. And, it's not mixing.
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Post by andersmv on Apr 29, 2024 6:20:54 GMT -6
I’ve done stem mixes for people where I ran things through my console for them, but at that point it was more of a “mastering” thing where I was tweaking some stuff on the individual stems as well. It can work nicely, but don’t expect a night and day difference (even on really colorful consoles).
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Post by Bark Bark Dog on Apr 29, 2024 7:20:16 GMT -6
I use Acustica Nebula and AlexB Modern Flagship Console or his API1608 for this, depending on the job and the client. It's sample based and sounds great to my ears, much easier to mix after all tracks have been rendered through it. There are busses and a master insert too. If you treat your mix like a console and have these inserts on all busses and the master it all stacks up. Cheaper than hiring a room with a vintage console.
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Post by doubledog on Apr 29, 2024 7:49:34 GMT -6
there are lots of "virtual console" plugins. I like the Sonimus plugins (there are 3 flavors and they have a HPF built in) and the Slate VCC too. United Plugins FrontDAW is also inexpensive and you can dial in several different colors (and also has a HPF built in). All lightweight enough to use as your first insert on every channel (or it seems weird to me, but I guess some put it at the end). Or since you mentioned Pro Tools, just activate "Heat" and season to taste.
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Post by bgrotto on Apr 29, 2024 8:01:32 GMT -6
Hey all! A client asked about mixing on a vintage console, but can’t pay the price tag for me to be in a room like that for a while. I know the outboard EQs/comps and center section is where the real magic is, but I’m considering a super-short booking in which I throw faders to Unity with the directs opened up and “commit” a previously prepped session with ProTools IO inserts across every track. Nothing aggressive, just a simple pass of the stems through one round of channel strip. Alicia Keys meets Jack Johnson kinda songs. That said, my place of work (where I’d get best deal) only has 9000J and 4000G consoles and I have a Silver Bullet at home (which I’ll be mixing through). My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? I’ll probably have to do both to know for sure, but any thoughts? You will be better off educating your client on the waste of his time and money. They are romanticizing an idea. Running audio signal through the I/O of a console at unity will not offer any reasonable benefit. And, it's not mixing.
^^^this right here. And I'm a guy who mixes on an analog console with a bunch of outboard gear. It's much more a workflow thing than a sonic thing, and at the end of the day, the mix quality is limited (or enhanced) by the person doing the mixing, not the equipment. |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 29, 2024 9:01:59 GMT -6
Hey all! A client asked about mixing on a vintage console, but can’t pay the price tag for me to be in a room like that for a while. I know the outboard EQs/comps and center section is where the real magic is, but I’m considering a super-short booking in which I throw faders to Unity with the directs opened up and “commit” a previously prepped session with ProTools IO inserts across every track. Nothing aggressive, just a simple pass of the stems through one round of channel strip. Alicia Keys meets Jack Johnson kinda songs. That said, my place of work (where I’d get best deal) only has 9000J and 4000G consoles and I have a Silver Bullet at home (which I’ll be mixing through). My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? I’ll probably have to do both to know for sure, but any thoughts? At one point SSL desks were rampant in Europe, at college they said hey guess what we've got an SSL 9K and at this point I'm super stoked about. At Uni they said guess what? We've got an SSL desk and I'm like cool, cool. A few studios later and they're like, hey guess what we've got? I'm muttering, I hope it's a Neve, I hope it's a Neve and they're like no silly it's an SSL desk, will you be okay operating it? I was like, I'm sure I'll get by somehow.. Just once I'd liked to have tried an API desk.
Anyway, I don't think they are vanilla. Even my SSL Big Six which is transformerless does the whole mid forward, wide sounding lack of bass thing and nothing but other SSL desks sound quite like it. However a Mackie Onyx or A&H Zed desk sounds no different to an interface to me. I bought a hardware Pultec style EQ like everybody else did for any SSL console to give it a nice mojo packed bass boost, that's one thing to consider. SSL EQ's are okay but I tend to prefer ITB and even with the old TDM / 4K setups I'd use plugins. That does save a lot of time IME when it comes to recall, the SSL buss comp is the star of the show on most of them so you'll probably want to use that. The 4K has more mojo so if I were to book one I'd swing in that direction.
And yeah, if there was HW, TDM or HDX or something like that then the general approach was unity faders besides from insert removed rides which were printed back for recall purposes as well. Compressors IME can be mainly set and forget as they tend to have sweetspots. For me the only real difference in terms of time was bouncing and setup, I went without a desk for a decade and SSL's do have a lot of flexible routing options. Even with my mini SSL mixer until it became muscle memory again I did feel like a monkey slapping a typewriter for a day or two.
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Post by Dan on Apr 29, 2024 9:33:34 GMT -6
You will be better off educating your client on the waste of his time and money. They are romanticizing an idea. Running audio signal through the I/O of a console at unity will not offer any reasonable benefit. And, it's not mixing.
^^^this right here. And I'm a guy who mixes on an analog console with a bunch of outboard gear. It's much more a workflow thing than a sonic thing, and at the end of the day, the mix quality is limited (or enhanced) by the person doing the mixing, not the equipment. It's also trivial to put the same eq and distortion on everything itb. The result can be quite cool especially if it has broader curves and you have to use multiple eq instances to get what you want without using your eyes. Of course try it with something like Console 1, and you can easily get a phase shifted mess eventually from the minimum phase anti alias filters but the same with analog gear and many interfaces and some equipment. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 29, 2024 10:15:01 GMT -6
My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? Don't know the Scheps Bounce Factory, but an extra run thru the Silver Bullet will net you quite a bit. It was designed to do exactly what you are describing and will sound subjectively better than the SSL;s (IMO). Good luck with your project. |
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Post by nobtwiddler on Apr 29, 2024 11:19:30 GMT -6
Where are you located?
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Post by christopher on Apr 29, 2024 13:22:12 GMT -6
Maybe someone here will give you some time? My opinion is do it! First get the mix done ITB, understand how the puzzle fits together. Then plan how you will throw it out on the board. You will be able to dial it in 15-30 minutes as long as you know the board. However If the house guy is slow and not very communicative with patching it can be a bit torturous and screw things. I’ve had guys take 2 hours trying to remember how to route 24 channels… ugh.. normally mixing on a board is about 5 times faster than ITB - as long as you know the board. You have to forget recall, be gutsy and brave, and make tough choices with no going back. Chances are, it will take 3-5 remixes for perfection? Could always print vocals up, bass up, no-vocals; .. etc. But if you already know what you want, then it’s right there for the taking. Worst case, you had fun and your original mixes work best. Nothing to lose
(Re-reading your post I misunderstood and thought client was ready to go. After reading I’d say your silver bullet is good enough. Though the client is paying and has to live with it forever, sometimes going all the way can be easier to sit with years from now. then again time can work against you, so..)
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hoot
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hoot on Apr 29, 2024 14:22:54 GMT -6
My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? Don't know the Scheps Bounce Factory, but an extra run thru the Silver Bullet will net you quite a bit. It was designed to do exactly what you are describing and will sound subjectively better than the SSL;s (IMO). Good luck with your project. I think I’m probably just gonna go for this because I’m telling myself transformer-less is my problem with the console And I’m sitting at home with a literal transformer box. Hell, I got the Hitmaker4000s too if I want the SSL sound. I appreciate all the input and was likely fetishizing the idea of a console! Also, The Scheps Bounce Factory is a serious must-know for printing stems! Miles better than anything else that’s come out for this, works with SoundFlow to click around your screen in your sleep (even opening/closing/saving different projects!) |
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Post by notneeson on Apr 29, 2024 15:24:11 GMT -6
My contemplation is that one pass through a transformer-less console might be a little vanilla compared to simply letting Scheps Bounce Factory run the stems through my Silver Bullet overnight? Don't know the Scheps Bounce Factory, but an extra run thru the Silver Bullet will net you quite a bit. It was designed to do exactly what you are describing and will sound subjectively better than the SSL;s (IMO). Good luck with your project. Silver Bullet on the master, when everything is almost always already tracked through discrete/transformer balanced stuff, is usually all the console mojo I need to tie my mix together (Stam VCA on insert too). As I have a Mk1 I also love aspect ratio and SSL C drive via the MkII plugin. Damn the tools are good these days. I have to say, I’m a little skeptical of Bounce Factory if the idea is that your tracks all hit the SB at the same setting, when I switch from Mix to Tracking mode I very often need to tweak the gain and/or module selection or sequence. |
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Post by hey212 on Apr 29, 2024 16:57:42 GMT -6
Never tried it but people seem to rate the Sonimus N-Console. You put an instance on every track and it has a cumulative effect.
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hoot
Junior Member
Posts: 58
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Post by hoot on Apr 29, 2024 17:09:42 GMT -6
I have to say, I’m a little skeptical of Bounce Factory if the idea is that your tracks all hit the SB at the same setting, when I switch from Mix to Tracking mode I very often need to tweak the gain and/or module selection or sequence. Totally agree! Winding up some mixbus settings and blasting the stems through while I nap would probably get me in trouble! Haha I’d just be kissing things, erroring on the side of doing too little. It’ll still get mixed after all |
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,011 
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Post by ericn on Apr 29, 2024 18:13:48 GMT -6
You will be better off educating your client on the waste of his time and money. They are romanticizing an idea. Running audio signal through the I/O of a console at unity will not offer any reasonable benefit. And, it's not mixing.
^^^this right here. And I'm a guy who mixes on an analog console with a bunch of outboard gear. It's much more a workflow thing than a sonic thing, and at the end of the day, the mix quality is limited (or enhanced) by the person doing the mixing, not the equipment. Yup not about the console, it’s about what You or I can get the console and everything else to do. |
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 29, 2024 18:44:24 GMT -6
Try the Black Box HG-2. You'll get 30 % or more of that big console sound in my experience.
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 29, 2024 21:52:34 GMT -6
Mixing is the process of artfully enhancing audio in a translatable manner via a slurry of methodologies in a chain. If the equipment doesn't matter than you should be able to hit record and nothing else is required right? I'm sorry to be so literal here as it's a slippery avenue but the tools in succession matter as much as the ability to use them (or mainly spot whether or not they're making things better or worse) and if you get either wrong then you get what you're given. Some consoles (even expensive one's), desks, small mixers add nothing to the party. I've come across a few that even degraded the audio, some do enhance the signal and not always in the way you want it to etc. Look, there's never enough audio around here. I have an SSL desk, it's transformer-less and I think it makes quite the impact, not subtle at all. Feel free to send me a track, I'll run it though at line level and I'll post it back to you.
Or if anyone is willing to share a track to post here so everyone can note the differences then please send it on.
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Post by bgrotto on Apr 29, 2024 22:51:06 GMT -6
Mixing is the process of artfully enhancing audio in a translatable manner via a slurry of methodologies in a chain. If the equipment doesn't matter than you should be able to hit record and nothing else is required right? I'm sorry to be so literal here as it's a slippery avenue but the tools in succession matter as much as the ability to use them (or mainly spot whether or not they're making things better or worse) and if you get either wrong then you get what you're given. Some consoles (even expensive one's), desks, small mixers add nothing to the party. I've come across a few that even degraded the audio, some do enhance the signal and not always in the way you want it to etc. Look, there's never enough audio around here. I have an SSL desk, it's transformer-less and I think it makes quite the impact, not subtle at all. Feel free to send me a track, I'll run it though at line level and I'll post it back to you.
Or if anyone is willing to share a track to post here so everyone can note the differences then please send it on.
I don't think anyone here is saying that gear selections don't have an impact. I do disagree strongly that tools in any capacity matter as much as the ability to use them. Knowing how to use tools would inherently mean spotting whether they're making things better or worse. The issue here -- which I reckon any of the professionals on this board have experienced countless times and probably most of the non-professionals have experienced at least once -- is the client is operating under the assumption that a vintage desk will automatically make the mixes better (because, to your point, the client likely doesn't know how to use these tools and thus cannot spot whether they are making things better or worse). While I don't know the OP's experience level, mixing preferences, etc, I'd be pretty comfortable wagering that this client's attitude is obviously misguided for a multitude of reasons. Isn't part of our job to guide our clients to the best outcome? And isn't it in each engineer's best interest to utilize the workflow that best suits the task at hand, and not simply the more resource-consuming workflow that the client believes will impart some magic mojo when such mojo is not even a remote guarantee? |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 30, 2024 11:07:24 GMT -6
Mixing is the process of artfully enhancing audio in a translatable manner via a slurry of methodologies in a chain. If the equipment doesn't matter than you should be able to hit record and nothing else is required right? I'm sorry to be so literal here as it's a slippery avenue but the tools in succession matter as much as the ability to use them (or mainly spot whether or not they're making things better or worse) and if you get either wrong then you get what you're given. Some consoles (even expensive one's), desks, small mixers add nothing to the party. I've come across a few that even degraded the audio, some do enhance the signal and not always in the way you want it to etc. Look, there's never enough audio around here. I have an SSL desk, it's transformer-less and I think it makes quite the impact, not subtle at all. Feel free to send me a track, I'll run it though at line level and I'll post it back to you.
Or if anyone is willing to share a track to post here so everyone can note the differences then please send it on.
I don't think anyone here is saying that gear selections don't have an impact. I do disagree strongly that tools in any capacity matter as much as the ability to use them. Knowing how to use tools would inherently mean spotting whether they're making things better or worse. The issue here -- which I reckon any of the professionals on this board have experienced countless times and probably most of the non-professionals have experienced at least once -- is the client is operating under the assumption that a vintage desk will automatically make the mixes better (because, to your point, the client likely doesn't know how to use these tools and thus cannot spot whether they are making things better or worse). While I don't know the OP's experience level, mixing preferences, etc, I'd be pretty comfortable wagering that this client's attitude is obviously misguided for a multitude of reasons. Isn't part of our job to guide our clients to the best outcome? And isn't it in each engineer's best interest to utilize the workflow that best suits the task at hand, and not simply the more resource-consuming workflow that the client believes will impart some magic mojo when such mojo is not even a remote guarantee? Yep agreed. If I used a Vintage Neve Desk and an A-Z of outboard processing and then sent the same files to Tchad Blake to mix inside Pro Tools with nothing but plugins (he's 100% ITB) His mix would blow mine away. It just would. |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 30, 2024 12:40:48 GMT -6
Yep agreed. If I used a Vintage Neve Desk and an A-Z of outboard processing and then sent the same files to Tchad Blake to mix inside Pro Tools with nothing but plugins (he's 100% ITB) His mix would blow mine away. It just would. It doesn't matter what Tchad Blake does, my equipment or use of is aimed towards getting results for me not them. Yes, great tracks have been made with MOTU's, Apollo's + plugs and some of the people behind them that I know would scoff at the amount we've spent on monitors, mic's + HW but so what? I don't believe a mostly HW mix sounds like an ITB one (this is dependant entirely on the equipment used of course), nothing has changed my mind yet on that subject so the equipment 100% matters to me, is there an issue with that? I'm not saying any approach is better but for me it's at least different. End of the day you couldn't pry my SSL mixer from my cold dead hands and I miss my 4k (I really, really miss it) if it's any other desk then whatever  . So of course I'm going to say go for the desk irrelevant of whether or not the client is "misguided". It's really for the OP to decide based upon their own experience, if a console workflow ends up in a bodge don't bother. Yes, if there's skill issues of course no amount of equipment will save you but that's just down right obvious.
I managed to shorten my super long post, cool.. 
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Post by jacobamerritt on Apr 30, 2024 13:02:11 GMT -6
How have summing mixers not been mentioned yet. |
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. So of course I'm going to say go for the desk irrelevant of whether or not the client is "misguided". It's really for the OP to decide based upon their own experience, if a console workflow ends up in a bodge don't bother. Yes, if there's skill issues of course no amount of equipment will save you but that's just down right obvious.
