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Post by Shadowk on Apr 13, 2024 23:53:41 GMT -6
Of course, the only real way to measure this stuff is to get an in room response readout via REW, ARC etc. However and sorry if this is a silly question but the one thing that always gets me is the specifications vs. tuning with ATC. For example the SCM 25's bass cutoff is supposed to be 47hz -6dB (anechoic), however the port is tuned to 32Hz. I mean are they using a HPF at some point to cut it off or is this just a measurement? What is it exactly?
Anyone here measured their in room response with the 25's?
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 14, 2024 5:39:54 GMT -6
Of course, the only real way to measure this stuff is to get an in room response readout via REW, ARC etc. However and sorry if this is a silly question but the one thing that always gets me is the specifications vs. tuning with ATC. For example the SCM 25's bass cutoff is supposed to be 47hz -6dB (anechoic), however the port is tuned to 32Hz. I mean are they using a HPF at some point to cut it off or is this just a measurement? What is it exactly?
Anyone here measured their in room response with the 25's?
Phone SX Pro get a pair of 25’s in your room. You’ll either have a sonic epiphany (as I did) or you might not see an advantage over you 59’s or you may be completely underwhelmed - all three are possible. My room is very well treated with £3K’s worth of GIK absorbing panels, diffusers and corner traps - they created the solution for me based on my room (I had to send photos and dimensions). 4m x 3.5m And I have more than enough tight, articulate bass to mix music in the genres I make. When I contacted ATC to ask about their new sub to go with my 25’s the actually recommended I didn’t buy it on the basis the bass would over excite my room. The bass is currently very tight articulate and controlled. For me, monitors are very much a “suck it and see” thing, I have never looked at a spec sheet! |
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Post by FM77 on Apr 14, 2024 6:30:33 GMT -6
Of course, the only real way to measure this stuff is to get an in room response readout via REW, ARC etc. However and sorry if this is a silly question but the one thing that always gets me is the specifications vs. tuning with ATC. For example the SCM 25's bass cutoff is supposed to be 47hz -6dB (anechoic), however the port is tuned to 32Hz. I mean are they using a HPF at some point to cut it off or is this just a measurement? What is it exactly?
Anyone here measured their in room response with the 25's?
Cheers Shadow SCMs cut-off at 47hz is their free field / free standing sensitivity spec (no room reflection or echo). Not all monitor specs are published this way. The +6dB continuously variable bass boost on the back of the ATCs are at 40hz. And when you plug the ports, the low-end increase by 1-2 dB below 45 hz. But they go deeper in real-world use. Deep enough? That is up to each room, engineer, style etc. They are not known for low-end, but they are known for accuracy.
I have measured my small room several times with ATC SCM25s, (MKI and MKII and REW, Dirac and now ARC the past year) MKIIs are in here now. They are consistent in as far as room read and there is alot of information below 35Hz that is measured and graphed.
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 14, 2024 8:30:43 GMT -6
Phone SX Pro get a pair of 25’s in your room. You’ll either have a sonic epiphany (as I did) or you might not see an advantage over you 59’s or you may be completely underwhelmed - all three are possible. My room is very well treated with £3K’s worth of GIK absorbing panels, diffusers and corner traps - they created the solution for me based on my room (I had to send photos and dimensions). 4m x 3.5m And I have more than enough tight, articulate bass to mix music in the genres I make. When I contacted ATC to ask about their new sub to go with my 25’s the actually recommended I didn’t buy it on the basis the bass would over excite my room. The bass is currently very tight articulate and controlled. For me, monitors are very much a “suck it and see” thing, I have never looked at a spec sheet! KMR are sending out a demo pair and these aren't the only ATC's I've demo'd, I had a set of SCM 110's & SCM45's in my larger (now tracking) room which is 27 X 18 ft or 8.2M X 5.4M. They respond IME to boundary loading quite well however IME you just never really know with ATC what you're going to end up with. Also I used GIK's room designer, spoke to their acousticians for planning (right down to layout & furniture) and hired an acoustician to come around & verify. Mine came to a bit more than £3K despite my dimensions being not too far from your's. Probably cause I liked the fancy patterns but mainly it's because I wanted stability down to at least 35Hz which it's not exactly but not bad either, you can't beat physics unfortunately (our room's are just too small). Anyway, point being we should be coming from a similar angle then.
Sub was an option, especially with the Geithain's as they're vertical (too tall) and I bought a stupidly long desk (3.5M) which is a reflection point & removes the possibility of stands. However it's a practical need so I can have all the rack equipment close by. I've done the under the desk side rack thing and I find it logistically harder..
I suppose I could use the bigger room and get a pair of 100's but that comes with several challenges, like it seems to be the central hub for a lot of wiring so I'd have to remove the plasterboard from the ceiling and get an electrician to reroute stuff also I might be moving soon so what's the point? Plus the cost in treatment for that room is quite a bit more even if I have a good start.
Unfortunately I do quite a variety of genre's and it's not always just me that uses my studio and I do prefer a more analytical breakdown. I don't have null's or any sort of issues in those regards, it's pretty well balanced but it ain't perfect (no room is) and the type of speaker can have a big effect on that. I don't see a side firing port being an issue as it'll slam straight across a big ol' bass trap but we'll see, I always REW & ARC.
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 14, 2024 9:43:48 GMT -6
Cheers Shadow SCMs cut-off at 47hz is their free field / free standing sensitivity spec (no room reflection or echo). Not all monitor specs are published this way. The +6dB continuously variable bass boost on the back of the ATCs are at 40hz. And when you plug the ports, the low-end increase by 1-2 dB below 45 hz. But they go deeper in real-world use. Deep enough? That is up to each room, engineer, style etc. They are not known for low-end, but they are known for accuracy.
I have measured my small room several times with ATC SCM25s, (MKI and MKII and REW, Dirac and now ARC the past year) MKIIs are in here now. They are consistent in as far as room read and there is alot of information below 35Hz that is measured and graphed.
I really appreciate that FM77, I think the real question was do I want to bother demo'ing them at all? But that's a personal thing based upon what I do and only I can answer that. I'm getting 32Hz from the Dyn's and they are (36 - 6dB) but with DSP / boundary loading etc. I'm near full range. If I can hear the fundamental of a bass guitar (41.2Hz) or a kick in relatively standard tuning's I'm fine, I can check sub bass on headphones for low down weirdness. I suppose ideally you want your monitors to do that but it's not always ideal in the real world no matter how much treatment or acoustic design goes into it as the room itself has limits.
Just to note, the Dyn's are fine and I've certainly mixed on much worse. I'm happy enough with headphones half the time, this might be sorted after I move and it's certainly not a number one priority. However anyone who has listened to them said the Geithain's were better so as I've put this much into it I might as well explore options, nice Xmas present if nothing else  ..
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Apr 14, 2024 10:20:21 GMT -6
It’s simple Danny, Billy specs ATC’s over a smaller bandwidth than they can actually operate in for those nice low distortion figures.
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Post by Dan on Apr 14, 2024 10:33:23 GMT -6
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST.
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Post by Dan on Apr 14, 2024 10:33:54 GMT -6
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST, which still has a ton of headroom and extremely low distortion.
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Post by FM77 on Apr 14, 2024 11:08:09 GMT -6
It’s simple Danny, Billy specs ATC’s over a smaller bandwidth than they can actually operate in for those nice low distortion figures.
Haha, that is probably true. Though the SMC THD specs seem pretty common with other speakers.
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST. I don't know anybody who uses the port bungs. I have heard ATC designed them with port bungs in mind, but they have never seemed useful to me. Not ever.
But it's a good opportunity to write the phrase 'bung port'  |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 14, 2024 11:22:38 GMT -6
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST. My experience with the CMS65's wasn't the best so I've never even looked at Focal since. I mean on paper the Trio6 seem ideal and they are a very nice price comparatively speaking, for the money you'd expect them to be a lot better than the CMS range but I dunno.
They came from LYD 48's and say the Trio's are a couple of steps above, which the 59's are essentially 48's on roid's so maybe I shouldn't be too quick to dismiss them?
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 14, 2024 12:03:52 GMT -6
Phone SX Pro get a pair of 25’s in your room. You’ll either have a sonic epiphany (as I did) or you might not see an advantage over you 59’s or you may be completely underwhelmed - all three are possible. My room is very well treated with £3K’s worth of GIK absorbing panels, diffusers and corner traps - they created the solution for me based on my room (I had to send photos and dimensions). 4m x 3.5m And I have more than enough tight, articulate bass to mix music in the genres I make. When I contacted ATC to ask about their new sub to go with my 25’s the actually recommended I didn’t buy it on the basis the bass would over excite my room. The bass is currently very tight articulate and controlled. For me, monitors are very much a “suck it and see” thing, I have never looked at a spec sheet! KMR are sending out a demo pair and these aren't the only ATC's I've demo'd, I had a set of SCM 110's & SCM45's in my larger (now tracking) room which is 27 X 18 ft or 8.2M X 5.4M. They respond IME to boundary loading quite well however IME you just never really know with ATC what you're going to end up with. Also I used GIK's room designer, spoke to their acousticians for planning (right down to layout & furniture) and hired an acoustician to come around & verify. Mine came to a bit more than £3K despite my dimensions being not too far from your's. Probably cause I liked the fancy patterns but mainly it's because I wanted stability down to at least 35Hz which it's not exactly but not bad either, you can't beat physics unfortunately (our room's are just too small). Anyway, point being we should be coming from a similar angle then.
Sub was an option, especially with the Geithain's as they're vertical (too tall) and I bought a stupidly long desk (3.5M) which is a reflection point & removes the possibility of stands. However it's a practical need so I can have all the rack equipment close by. I've done the under the desk side rack thing and I find it logistically harder..
I suppose I could use the bigger room and get a pair of 100's but that comes with several challenges, like it seems to be the central hub for a lot of wiring so I'd have to remove the plasterboard from the ceiling and get an electrician to reroute stuff also I might be moving soon so what's the point? Plus the cost in treatment for that room is quite a bit more even if I have a good start.
Unfortunately I do quite a variety of genre's and it's not always just me that uses my studio and I do prefer a more analytical breakdown. I don't have null's or any sort of issues in those regards, it's pretty well balanced but it ain't perfect (no room is) and the type of speaker can have a big effect on that. I don't see a side firing port being an issue as it'll slam straight across a big ol' bass trap but we'll see, I always REW & ARC.
The stand out for me with my 25's were, they're the most forgiving monitors in terms of room location. Though I found their height quite critical (as per the manual) they definitely sound best with the mid driver at ear height. They're the least fatiguing monitors I've used on long sessions and the most important part - the translation to other system is always totally predictable and spot on. What you hear is what you've got - well that's my experience with them But like any monitors they have their fans and they have their detractors! I like KMR - they're good guys, as are SX pro. I've actually had good luck with Funky Junk too. |
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Post by Dan on Apr 14, 2024 12:06:17 GMT -6
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST. My experience with the CMS65's wasn't the best so I've never even looked at Focal since. I mean on paper the Trio6 seem ideal and they are a very nice price comparatively speaking, for the money you'd expect them to be a lot better than the CMS range but I dunno. The cms65 were decent but not great. The shapes fixed the cabinet issues and kept the pleasant aluminum-magnesium alloy tweeter. The st6 line fixes the cabinet issues of the beryllium tweeter monitors, the sm6 line. There’s focal solo st6 and it’s no longer muddy hifi garbage. I’m sure the new twins and solo 6 st6 are good too. Focal’s new owners seem serious Also the beryllium tweeters are much more detailed than the alu-mags but are slightly too bright but so are Dynaudios and JBLs |
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Post by Shadowk on Apr 14, 2024 17:25:42 GMT -6
The cms65 were decent but not great. The shapes fixed the cabinet issues and kept the pleasant aluminum-magnesium alloy tweeter. The st6 line fixes the cabinet issues of the beryllium tweeter monitors, the sm6 line. There’s focal solo st6 and it’s no longer muddy hifi garbage. I’m sure the new twins and solo 6 st6 are good too. Focal’s new owners seem serious Also the beryllium tweeters are much more detailed than the alu-mags but are slightly too bright but so are Dynaudios and JBLs Decent is open to interpretation but ultimately this is like a dog chasing it's own tail, also the bright thing stops it being an option from the start because you can have detailed yet easy on the ear. There's always better out there, the Dyn 59's are IME far better than my headphones which sound muddy in comparison. The amp on the Carbon helps them catch up more than one would expect but it's not quite there, so I certainly don't have room issues because these are closed backs which should in theory be "better" although they're nowhere near really.
The Dyn's I have were far more coherent than the Neumann's, LYD 48's and Genelec 8341's. Although in reality any one of those is more than sufficient to create amazing mixes with, we've gone past the realms of need and it's far more in line with want. I kept saying it but ignorance is bliss, the Geithain's for example are just slightly better in every way and that adds up to a holistically better, well everything.. They translate like absolute king's as well.
The Geithain's are stupidly detailed, wide sounding, accurate across the frequency spectrum yet very easy to listen to which is something my Dyn's simply aren't, not in terms of clarity, LMF response or ease of use. I seriously doubt the the ATC 25's are going to be "better" because I don't think the 110's are but again this has gone way past the requirement of need, I could fill that gap with $2.5K monitors or just keep the Dyn's but for a pair to keep 25 years until I retire.. Well.. Hmm.. I don't think it will be the Focal's..
Do I want to spend $15K though? I mean, that's a house deposit or a car. I really don't know, I'm going to fritter on this stuff till it makes sense then just go for it.
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Post by Dan on Apr 14, 2024 19:41:38 GMT -6
The cms65 were decent but not great. The shapes fixed the cabinet issues and kept the pleasant aluminum-magnesium alloy tweeter. The st6 line fixes the cabinet issues of the beryllium tweeter monitors, the sm6 line. There’s focal solo st6 and it’s no longer muddy hifi garbage. I’m sure the new twins and solo 6 st6 are good too. Focal’s new owners seem serious Also the beryllium tweeters are much more detailed than the alu-mags but are slightly too bright but so are Dynaudios and JBLs Decent is open to interpretation but ultimately this is like a dog chasing it's own tail, also the bright thing stops it being an option from the start because you can have detailed yet easy on the ear. There's always better out there, the Dyn 59's are IME far better than my headphones which sound muddy in comparison. The amp on the Carbon helps them catch up more than one would expect but it's not quite there, so I certainly don't have room issues because these are closed backs which should in theory be "better" although they're nowhere near really.
The Dyn's I have were far more coherent than the Neumann's, LYD 48's and Genelec 8341's. Although in reality any one of those is more than sufficient to create amazing mixes with, we've gone past the realms of need and it's far more in line with want. I kept saying it but ignorance is bliss, the Geithain's for example are just slightly better in every way and that adds up to a holistically better, well everything.. They translate like absolute king's as well.
The Geithain's are stupidly detailed, wide sounding, accurate across the frequency spectrum yet very easy to listen to which is something my Dyn's simply aren't, not in terms of clarity, LMF response or ease of use. I seriously doubt the the ATC 25's are going to be "better" because I don't think the 110's are but again this has gone way past the requirement of need, I could fill that gap with $2.5K monitors or just keep the Dyn's but for a pair to keep 25 years until I retire.. Well.. Hmm.. I don't think it will be the Focal's..
Do I want to spend $15K though? I mean, that's a house deposit or a car. I really don't know, I'm going to fritter on this stuff till it makes sense then just go for it.
You don’t need any of this shit dude. Maybe a pair of nearfields but not anything that costs a car. When my KRK V6 inevitably break again I’m going to get some Focal ST6, maybe the Reflector audio Cubes, ATC 12 or 20, maybe Questeds if they get better distribution again, it doesn’t really matter that much at that level. |
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Post by svart on Apr 14, 2024 20:22:41 GMT -6
Of course, the only real way to measure this stuff is to get an in room response readout via REW, ARC etc. However and sorry if this is a silly question but the one thing that always gets me is the specifications vs. tuning with ATC. For example the SCM 25's bass cutoff is supposed to be 47hz -6dB (anechoic), however the port is tuned to 32Hz. I mean are they using a HPF at some point to cut it off or is this just a measurement? What is it exactly?
Anyone here measured their in room response with the 25's?
Port tuning is about creating an air spring that supports the woofer movement as well as a resonance.. The box would always have to have a lower limit than the woofer. Without the box, the woofer wouldn't even extend down to 47hz in free air. The box and woofer form their own Hpf from the natural physics of the system. |
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Post by smashlord on Apr 14, 2024 20:57:56 GMT -6
ATC doesn’t use their ports to boost bass at the expense of headroom and distortion. They’re used to lower distortion at the expense of impulse response. If you want that and a lot of detail, Focal ST. My experience with the CMS65's wasn't the best so I've never even looked at Focal since. I mean on paper the Trio6 seem ideal and they are a very nice price comparatively speaking, for the money you'd expect them to be a lot better than the CMS range but I dunno.
CMS65s were garbage. Had a pair yearrrrs ago and hated them. The Solos, Twins, and Trios are all great, though. I have work on them all extensively. My only critique is the Be tweeter can be a bit strident, causing your mixes to come out a little soft/light in the upper midrange until you get used to them and embrace a bit of harshness, so to speak. A friend used to have SM9s and I LOVED those. |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 15, 2024 0:57:02 GMT -6
My experience with the CMS65's wasn't the best so I've never even looked at Focal since. I mean on paper the Trio6 seem ideal and they are a very nice price comparatively speaking, for the money you'd expect them to be a lot better than the CMS range but I dunno.
CMS65s were garbage. Had a pair yearrrrs ago and hated them. The Solos, Twins, and Trios are all great, though. I have work on them all extensively. My only critique is the Be tweeter can be a bit strident, causing your mixes to come out a little soft/light in the upper midrange until you get used to them and embrace a bit of harshness, so to speak. A friend used to have SM9s and I LOVED those. I had Focal Twins for a while and my mix translation went to the wall. My mixes were always a bit dull in the hi's (it was the BE tweeter, it was simply too bright) and the bass was kind of undefined - I just couldn't get on with them and sold them. I changed to 0300's which helped but they were the opposite - too soft and polite in the upper mids and hi's. The ATC 25's were home for me. I think it proves that there is nothing more personal than monitors. You can pour over spec sheets, analyse port designs, check graphs for this that and the other but you're either going to get the translation you need or you're not, a lack of fatigue or they're tiring, and emotional connection to the music or the audio presentation might leave you cold. It's all got to work or the hunt goes on and you just don't feel at home. We all have very different types of audio acuity and I think this is a "glove and hand" thing. A fit for one is a misfit for someone else. |
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 15, 2024 5:57:49 GMT -6
“I think it proves that there is nothing more personal than monitors” Exactly : you gots to listen to them in your room! |
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Post by Dan on Apr 15, 2024 6:42:07 GMT -6
CMS65s were garbage. Had a pair yearrrrs ago and hated them. The Solos, Twins, and Trios are all great, though. I have work on them all extensively. My only critique is the Be tweeter can be a bit strident, causing your mixes to come out a little soft/light in the upper midrange until you get used to them and embrace a bit of harshness, so to speak. A friend used to have SM9s and I LOVED those. I had Focal Twins for a while and my mix translation went to the wall. My mixes were always a bit dull in the hi's (it was the BE tweeter, it was simply too bright) and the bass was kind of undefined - I just couldn't get on with them and sold them. I changed to 0300's which helped but they were the opposite - too soft and polite in the upper mids and hi's. The ATC 25's were home for me. I think it proves that there is nothing more personal than monitors. You can pour over spec sheets, analyse port designs, check graphs for this that and the other but you're either going to get the translation you need or you're not, a lack of fatigue or they're tiring, and emotional connection to the music or the audio presentation might leave you cold. It's all got to work or the hunt goes on and you just don't feel at home. We all have very different types of audio acuity and I think this is a "glove and hand" thing. A fit for one is a misfit for someone else. the new Focals do not have a sound from the box like the older ones and the twins have always been trashy and mtm designs are worse than bookshelves. The beryllium tweeter is fine. Clean up your recordings of high end garbage. |
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Post by thehightenor on Apr 15, 2024 9:18:13 GMT -6
“I think it proves that there is nothing more personal than monitors” Exactly : you gots to listen to them in your room! +1 I've had lots and lots of monitors through my room over the years - the Focal's were my least favourite I think the BE tweeter is truly awful (others love it) I don't like metal tweeters. Full stop. I make beautifully smooth, clean detailed recordings and I like to hear that detail through soft dome teeters (and the ATC mid dome) The point being we all have very different requirements for our monitors as we all have very different tastes. Monitor threads are bordering on futile really - beauty is in the eye of the beholder But anyway, for me ATC 25's have been my favourite. I'd love some ATC 150's and the room to put them in (I'd still keep the 25's) .... but they're way, way out of my price range! |
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