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Post by christopher on Oct 25, 2024 22:57:52 GMT -6
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Post by theshea on Oct 26, 2024 0:12:32 GMT -6
thats one of thousands of songs on the radios today. and a big YES: the industry already uses AI to CREATE pop songs. i know from first hand experience. they prompt the AI programm and let it spit out 5-10 songs and than go with the best one. than they let AI generate lyrics. maybe it will take them 1 hour and 10 attempts but in the end its AI generated lyrics. than they let AI generate stems from the music. and see which ones they can use straight away and which ones they need to reproduce on their own. but again, 70-80% is AI generated. mostly the only thing recorded for real is the lead vocal anyway nowadays. and thats the popmainstream. most people consuming music on mainstream radio are already listening to mainly AI generated music. the rest will be niche music like it used to be and in my pessimistic opinion lesser and less. because people are lazy and many are already sample replacing drums even in niche music. and bass guitar too. and backing vocals as well and so on. the one really interesting thing will be is how law, copyright and licenses will be handled and restricted in the next years. |
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Post by theshea on Oct 26, 2024 1:07:59 GMT -6
anyone up for a bit of jazz…?
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 26, 2024 4:01:56 GMT -6
For those of us who have had experience standing in the gap between "progress" (tech) and art, we pretty much know that it is futile. Musicians are the most lame people on the planet in terms of business strategy and organization. Hell, we can't even form an effective musicians union to stand up for our rights playing casuals - much less against the tech oligarchs. No...technology will move on. And it will change music forever. Much like the "recording arts" changed music forever, and the cell phone with internet access changed society forever. Either get on board, or get left behind. The answer to that question probably depends a lot on how old you are. The UK has an excellent, effective Musicians Union. My business strategy has been very effective. You're making generalisations. |
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Post by damoongo on Oct 26, 2024 9:09:05 GMT -6
thats one of thousands of songs on the radios today. and a big YES: the industry already uses AI to CREATE pop songs. i know from first hand experience. they prompt the AI programm and let it spit out 5-10 songs and than go with the best one. than they let AI generate lyrics. maybe it will take them 1 hour and 10 attempts but in the end its AI generated lyrics. than they let AI generate stems from the music. and see which ones they can use straight away and which ones they need to reproduce on their own. but again, 70-80% is AI generated. mostly the only thing recorded for real is the lead vocal anyway nowadays. and thats the popmainstream. most people consuming music on mainstream radio are already listening to mainly AI generated music. the rest will be niche music like it used to be and in my pessimistic opinion lesser and less. because people are lazy and many are already sample replacing drums even in niche music. and bass guitar too. and backing vocals as well and so on. the one really interesting thing will be is how law, copyright and licenses will be handled and restricted in the next years. Imagine actually listening to mainstream pop radio 🤣 |
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Post by drbill on Oct 26, 2024 10:42:08 GMT -6
For those of us who have had experience standing in the gap between "progress" (tech) and art, we pretty much know that it is futile. Musicians are the most lame people on the planet in terms of business strategy and organization. Hell, we can't even form an effective musicians union to stand up for our rights playing casuals - much less against the tech oligarchs. No...technology will move on. And it will change music forever. Much like the "recording arts" changed music forever, and the cell phone with internet access changed society forever. Either get on board, or get left behind. The answer to that question probably depends a lot on how old you are. The UK has an excellent, effective Musicians Union. My business strategy has been very effective. You're making generalisations. Seriously - good for you guys. The US AFM is a joke. When I joined, we struck for a YEAR, and when done, we made LESS than before we went on strike. Horrible stories where musicians lost homes, medical insurance, etc.. The producers laughed all the way to Canada and LA which once the music capitol of the world became a shell of what it once was. Now its a joke compared to 50 years ago. Not a generalization. Truth. On your situation - we all know that your career has been exceptional. Maybe not the norm? |
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Post by Oneiro on Oct 26, 2024 11:38:08 GMT -6
Good luck with this mindset. The schools outputting all these musicians with no work prospects are far more machine like and deluded. And frankly, not quite unethical but something close to it.
And I used Udio to make things that have nothing to do with mainstream music right now - Trane/Tyner-esque jazz, Captain Beefheart sort of garage rock, Basinski-esque tape loops, etc. It did a good job - certainly good enough to flesh out a compelling demo. I'd argue that it has much better taste than most of the musicians working on sessions in the US.
Truly talented people always use these things to their advantage. But I love that most seem to feel the way you do.
Have fun with your derivative outputs. Trane, Tyner, and Van Vliet were true innovators. (Maybe you need to get around some more inspired players/collaborators/spaces?) These instantaneous, derivative offerings will not fill the void inside a true artist (or listener). Ai can also generate me some Picaso/Braque-esque cubism, but it does not make me an artist, and no one want's to look at it. The compelling part of good art comes from the connection to the creator. The effort they put in. The struggle. The mystique. The sacrifice. The conviction. The ability to communicate a feeling and touch the viewer/listener. You can parrot a cute philosophy about human connectedness all you want but results are king.
Again, speak for yourself about no one wants to listen to it. I've worked in NYC studios for 15 years. I record old and young people in practically every genre, doing weird things and straightforward things and am around inspiring people nearly everyday when not mixing at my place. I look at most tools with openness but a healthy a degree of skepticism. And still I feel the way I do about this. Sure, you don't have to believe that this will output more artistically valid work than most of the people out of music and engineering schools. Time will have the last laugh.
I mean for all the people that seem to care about engineering and pro audio and all that, you hear their songs and it's stuff that frankly doesn't need to exist at all because it's tired, cliched, badly arranged, etc. But they do it because it's fun to do and making music is worth doing. You can turn AI into an ethical/moral/societal quandary if you want, but it's just a tool for making something exist. And it will get better and better at getting more granular with the process and thus a clear reflection of someone's intent.
Real artists have a vision and want to make things. AI is tremendous leverage for doing that. At worst, it's a great writing tool and absolutely no different than counting out the bars from a Beatles song and replicating the structure. This is the most practical use right now, which is giving you the arc/shape of an arrangement. I'd love to be able to input raw ideas, chord changes, melodies, patterns, etc. and see what comes out of it. And it really will not matter to the listener if the result is good enough.
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Post by thehightenor on Oct 26, 2024 14:32:49 GMT -6
The UK has an excellent, effective Musicians Union. My business strategy has been very effective. You're making generalisations. Seriously - good for you guys. The US AFM is a joke. When I joined, we struck for a YEAR, and when done, we made LESS than before we went on strike. Horrible stories where musicians lost homes, medical insurance, etc.. The producers laughed all the way to Canada and LA which once the music capitol of the world became a shell of what it once was. Now its a joke compared to 50 years ago. Not a generalization. Truth. On your situation - we all know that your career has been exceptional. Maybe not the norm? I don’t know about that - in truth, not even remotely exceptional. In fact I made some very dumb career moves that cost me very dearly in terms of commercial success! But, I have been savvy about business and that’s kept me going over the decades. I’m certainly sorry hear about the plight of the musicians you talk about - that’s not good - I didn’t know the US MU was so ineffective. I thought unions in the USA were generally quite powerful. |
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Post by drbill on Oct 26, 2024 19:40:24 GMT -6
In fact I made some very dumb career moves that cost me very dearly in terms of commercial success! But, I have been savvy about business and that’s kept me going over the decades. I’m certainly sorry hear about the plight of the musicians you talk about - that’s not good - I didn’t know the US MU was so ineffective. I thought unions in the USA were generally quite powerful. Making "dumb moves" is the definition of human. So you're in good company.  But musicians - generally - are one or two steps lower on the smart ladder than the general populous in terms of business and legal savvy. Unfortunate, but true - and proven over and over in the musical community I've grown up in. Yeah, that particular strike that I mentioned completely broke the bones of the musicians union. Totally decimated it, and because of the AFM's weakness, it completely re-defined how TV and films were made in the US. (i.e. they weren't - they moved in great part to Canada.) Traditionally, US unions have been powerful. This is changing pretty quickly, but the musicians union was never powerful - even in its heyday. 95% of union musicians were constantly working "off-book" on non union gigs. Cause the musician union was not strong enough to enforce the "rules" they created. Mostly cause those rules were just stupid. (I could give examples, but this excessively long post would become a veritable book!) -- But on point - "music" - the very definition of "music" is in the process of being re-defined. Just like it was when "recorded music" took the place of "live music". Everyone here is focused from the "professional musician" angle, but that's a mistake IMO, and missing the (hidden) mark. Recorded music has been the norm for all of our lives. Once upon a time before we were around, music happened in the parlor or living room of each of our homes. Then, pianos and guitars became replaced by record players, stereo's, etc. - and the general populous relegated the "making of music" to professionals and the serious musicians - not common people. Enter recorded music (and most of us). Recorded music has been the status quo for all of our lives. Dare I say that everyone here - MYSELF INCLUDED - believes that as professional musicians, recordists, etc., the torch of creating music is our entitled right. That is changing, and will continue to change as AI redefines society and our world. Now.....making "music" is being handed back into the hands of the general populous with AI. Except they are too lazy to buy a piano or a guitar and LEARN an instrument. Now....all they need is a cell phone with an internet connection - and they can make "music". And as crappy as it may be, it is bringing them great joy and a sense of accomplishment. Just like recorded music used to when people actually sat down a listened to "an album". And that most certainly will create, change and take over the traditional artist driven "music business". Our professions will not die, but they will wither and become more rare as the bulk of "music" will be created by computers and average non-musical humans. Hopefully it will be a fad, and the lustre will wear off, and the pendulum will swing back at some point, but I don't think in my lifetime. I think for the close foreseeable future, it will continue to push into AI generated computer "stuff" - both in music and other creative arts. I consider myself blessed to have grown up and had a vibrant career in the best decades of recorded music on the planet. Long live real music. Real music, recorded music as we have known it is dead dying. In Los Angeles, this started 40 years ago. Rambling over\. |
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Post by christopher on Oct 26, 2024 21:29:48 GMT -6
anyone up for a bit of jazz…? I can’t wait for the record label to complain the guy is charging them $40 for an hour work, when it was “impossible to hear a difference” with the original AI version 😂 |
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Post by christopher on Oct 26, 2024 21:42:42 GMT -6
In fact I made some very dumb career moves that cost me very dearly in terms of commercial success! But, I have been savvy about business and that’s kept me going over the decades. I’m certainly sorry hear about the plight of the musicians you talk about - that’s not good - I didn’t know the US MU was so ineffective. I thought unions in the USA were generally quite powerful. Making "dumb moves" is the definition of human. So you're in good company. But musicians - generally - are one or two steps lower on the smart ladder than the general populous in terms of business and legal savvy. Unfortunate, but true - and proven over and over in the musical community I've grown up in. Yeah, that particular strike that I mentioned completely broke the bones of the musicians union. Totally decimated it, and because of the AFM's weakness, it completely re-defined how TV and films were made in the US. (i.e. they weren't - they moved in great part to Canada.) Traditionally, US unions have been powerful. This is changing pretty quickly, but the musicians union was never powerful - even in its heyday. 95% of union musicians were constantly working "off-book" on non union gigs. Cause the musician union was not strong enough to enforce the "rules" they created. Mostly cause those rules were just stupid. (I could give examples, but this excessively long post would become a veritable book!) -- But on point - "music" - the very definition of "music" is in the process of being re-defined. Just like it was when "recorded music" took the place of "live music". Everyone here is focused from the "professional musician" angle, but that's a mistake IMO, and missing the (hidden) mark. Recorded music has been the norm for all of our lives. Once upon a time before we were around, music happened in the parlor or living room of each of our homes. Then, pianos and guitars became replaced by record players, stereo's, etc. - and the general populous relegated the "making of music" to professionals and the serious musicians - not common people. Enter recorded music (and most of us). Recorded music has been the status quo for all of our lives. Dare I say that everyone here - MYSELF INCLUDED - believes that as professional musicians, recordists, etc., the torch of creating music is our entitled right. That is changing, and will continue to change as AI redefines society and our world. Now.....making "music" is being handed back into the hands of the general populous with AI. Except they are too lazy to buy a piano or a guitar and LEARN an instrument. Now....all they need is a cell phone with an internet connection - and they can make "music". And as crappy as it may be, it is bringing them great joy and a sense of accomplishment. Just like recorded music used to when people actually sat down a listened to "an album". And that most certainly will create, change and take over the traditional artist driven "music business". Our professions will not die, but they will wither and become more rare as the bulk of "music" will be created by computers and average non-musical humans. Hopefully it will be a fad, and the lustre will wear off, and the pendulum will swing back at some point, but I don't think in my lifetime. I think for the close foreseeable future, it will continue to push into AI generated computer "stuff" - both in music and other creative arts. I consider myself blessed to have grown up and had a vibrant career in the best decades of recorded music on the planet. Long live real music. Real music, recorded music as we have known it is dead dying. In Los Angeles, this started 40 years ago. Rambling over\. Great post, and something sort of hit me. Pro music for profit could possibly make a comeback. While yes AI will make lots of songs.. Imagine being in 5th grade and the school bully write an AI about you? instead of what we dealt with? Or worse though.. high school. about the drama at school? Yuck! Everyone can create their own musical now.. a song for anything and everything. We here, we are aware of this and are on the razors edge. The general public is going to learn about this in about 1-3 years, then a year or two of them loving it then eventually all of them will reject it. Yuck. And the corporate narrative will push it at us long after everyone has moved on. It’s what they will move on to that excites me. |
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Post by chessparov on Oct 27, 2024 12:18:54 GMT -6
Extra busy with work recently/will “Ketchup” soon on these thought provoking posts. In the meantime… Did a chess lesson yesterday, where The Dad, brought back an AI Robot. That plays chess with a mechanical arm. Estimate this “Non-Pro” model plays around 2800 Fide like a top 40 Super Grandmaster. (Pro version is estimated at 3200 Fide/much stronger than any Human) Anyway… The 6 year old Boy and 10 year old Girl, are kinda “hypnotized” by the Technology.  FWIW the chess highlight for me is seeing old friends. Making new ones. At the local Wednesday Chess Club. (And the Santa Monica club/and “Chess Tables” South of the pier-back in the day) More Tech/less personal Interaction. NOT psychologically healthy for Humans. Great for Robots. And those Governments that prefer control their compliant Robots-ahem People. |
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Post by ml on Oct 28, 2024 11:19:13 GMT -6
anyone up for a bit of jazz…? Anyone else of the opinion that they deliberately make the vocals in these songs to sound computerized so you can identify that it’s AI. You know they have the tech to make them sound much more realistic. |
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