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Post by andersmv on Apr 18, 2024 8:13:29 GMT -6
I'm getting there... I'm waiting on someone digging through boxes that has the one I need. I'll buy one if that doesn't pan out. The Otari has built in test tones as well, so going between the ones in the Otari and looping some out of the DAW, I can get fairly close. I understand the importance of one and will get there eventually. It's not like I'm going to blow anything up messing with this stuff, and it's pretty easy to tell when something is WAY off. I'm not trying to do tape transfers for paying clients, I'm just having fun...
MRL recently got a few investors and are back up and running, but it wasn't looking good for a while.
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Post by andersmv on Apr 18, 2024 16:26:03 GMT -6
I fiddled a lot today, to the point where I completely screwed a few things up and had to kind of start from scratch. As has already been noted, "you can't do this without a calibration tape idiot" . I'll have one here in the next week or so, but quite honestly I'm really happy with where it's at. I do want to balance levels between record and repro and all of that as although it's sounding good to my ears, I did end up bumping the noise floor up a little too much. I know I can get it down a bit and keep the tone. I really wish the EQ options were more flexible, as there's just one overall EQ dial for each speed. Playing with the balance between the Record EQ and Repro EQ was really interesting. I "thought" I would like the sound better if I drove the EQ a bit brighter to the tape and backed off on the EQ at the other head. The opposite ended up being true though, I preferred dialing it in a bit darker on the Record side and compensating back up on the repro side. Interesting, as the opposite has always been the case when I've done this on "tapey" plugins that let you control stuff like that (like the UAD Studer). Other really interesting part was from the post I made earlier today. I tried calibrating the machine so it was as close to "0" at 100 hz, 1k, and 10k. "Flat" to the machine actually translated into really bright and thin in practice. This might just be really specific to these Otari MTR's, but having a -6 to -7 drop at 10K (when you're at 0 at 1K) actually sounds quite natural and similar to digital. When I did the little intro video the other day, I had not touched the EQ settings yet, so the guy that had it before me had it calibrated quite dark at almost -15 down at 10k. I went back and forth playing with calibrating the 10k tone between -6 and -3, there was quite a big difference to me in that range. I ended up somewhere in the middle. It sounds a little darker when comparing an acoustic guitar to the digital signal, basically the "tape sound" I have in my head where it rounds things off nicely. Playing with vocals a little bit, the tape now adds an incredible body and is like a natural de-esser without sounding dark or muddy. I'm going to have my C-12 "ish" clone from Derek at Vanguard soon with the Beesneez capsule. I'm excited to try some vocals with that pushed on tape a bit. I think it's going to be glorious. Since there's separate EQ settings for each speed, I also messed around a little with 7.5 IPS and 30 IPS. I don't want to admit it yet, but I might like 30 IPS a bit better than 15 IPS on this machine. I'll have to mess around more, but I've got it dialed in just a little brighter with a little less of a head bump. 7.5 IPS ended up not sounding as lo-fi as I was expecting it to sound. Surprisingly subtle difference to 15 IPS when calibrated the same way, at least on acoustic guitar and vocals. I can't wait to smash some drums through both and see what happens. I'm really happy today, I'm going to stop fiddling with the machine and wait until my calibration tape gets here. It will be interesting to see how far off things are from where they technically "should be". Again, I'm more than happy to run the machine as is, it sounds cool to me and that's all that matters. I do want to do a real, technically proper calibration with this thing and just see what the differences are, and probably hit a middle ground between what it should be and what I want it to be. I need to get the noise floor down just a little bit at the very least.
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Post by drumsound on Apr 18, 2024 22:56:18 GMT -6
I'm getting there... I'm waiting on someone digging through boxes that has the one I need. I'll buy one if that doesn't pan out. The Otari has built in test tones as well, so going between the ones in the Otari and looping some out of the DAW, I can get fairly close. I understand the importance of one and will get there eventually. It's not like I'm going to blow anything up messing with this stuff, and it's pretty easy to tell when something is WAY off. I'm not trying to do tape transfers for paying clients, I'm just having fun... MRL recently got a few investors and are back up and running, but it wasn't looking good for a while. I didn't realize that MRL was back. That's pretty cool.
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Post by andersmv on Apr 20, 2024 15:41:12 GMT -6
(Feel free to tear this test to pieces if you think there's a better way to approach it.)
I've been messing around with the UAD Studer tape plug-in, since you have some EQ and Bias settings on the inside. To my surprise, you can actually run a 10k tone to the plugin and bias the machine. Pretty cool! I ran the same signal generator in my DAW to both my Otari at 15 IPS and the UAD Studer at 15 IPS and tried to match the calibration as close as I could. ATR tape is supposedly modeled closer to 456 tape, so that's the tape type I chose on the UAD plugin and set calibration to +6. I ran the 1k tone with the FabFilter EQ up so I could see what kind of overtones were happening between the plug-in and my Otari. Obviously completely different machines and what not, but I noticed the overtones created at 1k on the Otari matched closer on the UAD plugin when I chose 250 as the tape type as opposed to 456. I ended up feeling like the 250 Tape Type on the UAD plugin sounded closer to the Otari as well when I was comparing, so I just went with that one.
After I set bias in the UAD plugin to match what I set on the Otari, I did the 1k test tone and played around with driving the input on the plugin. You can see the overtones going up and down relative to the tone, so I drove the input until it was as close as I could get to what I was seeing level and overtone wise on the Otari. I then matched the output of the plugin to the Otari level. Set a 10k test tone and played with the high frequency dials on the UAD Studer (you've got HF Driver and Repro EQ, similar to how you can do it on the Otari). Messing with that EQ, I matched the high end rolloff on the Otari as best I could. Did the same thing at 100 hz to try and match the low end head bump. You can also control the noise on the machine/tape UAD plugin, so I visually and audibly tried to match the Hum and Hiss of the Otari as well.
When I thought I had everything as close as I could get it with the UAD Studer controls, I pulled up vocals, acoustic guitar and drums and just did some fine tuning by ear on the input drive of the plugin as well as the EQ. Funny enough, I think I have a preset on the UAD Plugin that's matching a lot closer to the Otari than I was expecting. I'll play around with it more, but when I do my mega video, I'm definitely going to include that as part of the comparisons and share the preset when I have session files. I think they're still going to be pretty easy to pick out in a shootout consistently, but again, much closer than I thought it was going to be!
Anyone have some thoughts or a better idea on setting up a plugin comparison where i can actually match settings and go through a basic calibration process inside another tape plugin?
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2024 17:19:47 GMT -6
Anyone have some thoughts or a better idea on setting up a plugin comparison where i can actually match settings and go through a basic calibration process inside another tape plugin? I have a thought. Probably not popular with you though.... . A tape machine was (is?) a recording device, not an EQ. LOL. I always set it up to be as transparent, and as linear as possible. But hey, that's just me. You do you, and have fun with it!!! <thumbsup>
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Post by andersmv on Apr 20, 2024 17:26:28 GMT -6
Anyone have some thoughts or a better idea on setting up a plugin comparison where i can actually match settings and go through a basic calibration process inside another tape plugin? I have a thought. Probably not popular with you though.... . A tape machine was (is?) a recording device, not an EQ. LOL. I always set it up to be as transparent, and as linear as possible. But hey, that's just me. You do you, and have fun with it!!! <thumbsup> I’m trying to match what the Otari is doing with the Studer plugin so I’ve got a digital comparison at some point. Weren’t you gushing over the new LTL Tape extension in the silver bullet? As much as you’re giving me a hard time in here, I know you’re a fan of tape color at heart 😝 (I’m joking with you).
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2024 21:38:11 GMT -6
I have a thought. Probably not popular with you though.... . A tape machine was (is?) a recording device, not an EQ. LOL. I always set it up to be as transparent, and as linear as possible. But hey, that's just me. You do you, and have fun with it!!! <thumbsup> I’m trying to match what the Otari is doing with the Studer plugin so I’ve got a digital comparison at some point. Weren’t you gushing over the new LTL Tape extension in the silver bullet? As much as you’re giving me a hard time in here, I know you’re a fan of tape color at heart 😝 (I’m joking with you). Yeah, but EQ (for me at least) has nothing to do with it - the tape sound. It has more to do with the solidity of the bottom, the smoothing of the top. Both factors of tape, but more akin to compression than EQ. As for gushing....I've been fine without tape for well over a decade now. I do like it though if done right with the right machine (for me, not Otari or Studer or Tascam - but instead Ampex and MCI - but that's my preference, not heald by everyone obviously), but tape is not a make or break for me. Over the years I've learned how to work without it and pretty much get to the same place. The Tape79 is cool though, and I have to say, it's really worked out well (as in making things easy) on a few tunes for me. Still need more time with it.
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Post by drbill on Apr 20, 2024 21:46:10 GMT -6
PS - for me, tape is a METHODOLOGY more than the sum of it's sonic characteristics. It's a workflow that I truly miss. Tracking wise that is with multitrack tape. Brings an entirely different musicianship to the table, and a workflow to the studio that I often miss. You can do it with a DAW, but no one (including me) ever does. But 2" tape forces you into the box. And the box is cool. Sometimes...... Have fun fooling around and experimenting with your deck. I think you may get a different perspective once you get your alignment tape and get things squared away. Cheers. bp
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,087
Member is Online
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Post by ericn on Apr 20, 2024 22:10:20 GMT -6
I’m trying to match what the Otari is doing with the Studer plugin so I’ve got a digital comparison at some point. Weren’t you gushing over the new LTL Tape extension in the silver bullet? As much as you’re giving me a hard time in here, I know you’re a fan of tape color at heart 😝 (I’m joking with you). Yeah, but EQ (for me at least) has nothing to do with it - the tape sound. It has more to do with the solidity of the bottom, the smoothing of the top. Both factors of tape, but more akin to compression than EQ. As for gushing....I've been fine without tape for well over a decade now. I do like it though if done right with the right machine (for me, not Otari or Studer or Tascam - but instead Ampex and MCI - but that's my preference, not heald by everyone obviously), but tape is not a make or break for me. Over the years I've learned how to work without it and pretty much get to the same place. The Tape79 is cool though, and I have to say, it's really worked out well (as in making things easy) on a few tunes for me. Still need more time with it. Since I have no problem putting words in my friends mouth, what the good doc is saying is it’s not the EQ it’s how tape distorts that we love😁 I won’t say it’s more musical but what I will say is this: for those of us particularly of a certain age the sound of tape is the sound of recorded music
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Post by christopher on Apr 21, 2024 9:17:34 GMT -6
(Feel free to tear this test to pieces if you think there's a better way to approach it.) I've been messing around with the UAD Studer tape plug-in, since you have some EQ and Bias settings on the inside. To my surprise, you can actually run a 10k tone to the plugin and bias the machine. Pretty cool! I ran the same signal generator in my DAW to both my Otari at 15 IPS and the UAD Studer at 15 IPS and tried to match the calibration as close as I could. ATR tape is supposedly modeled closer to 456 tape, so that's the tape type I chose on the UAD plugin and set calibration to +6. I ran the 1k tone with the FabFilter EQ up so I could see what kind of overtones were happening between the plug-in and my Otari. Obviously completely different machines and what not, but I noticed the overtones created at 1k on the Otari matched closer on the UAD plugin when I chose 250 as the tape type as opposed to 456. I ended up feeling like the 250 Tape Type on the UAD plugin sounded closer to the Otari as well when I was comparing, so I just went with that one. After I set bias in the UAD plugin to match what I set on the Otari, I did the 1k test tone and played around with driving the input on the plugin. You can see the overtones going up and down relative to the tone, so I drove the input until it was as close as I could get to what I was seeing level and overtone wise on the Otari. I then matched the output of the plugin to the Otari level. Set a 10k test tone and played with the high frequency dials on the UAD Studer (you've got HF Driver and Repro EQ, similar to how you can do it on the Otari). Messing with that EQ, I matched the high end rolloff on the Otari as best I could. Did the same thing at 100 hz to try and match the low end head bump. You can also control the noise on the machine/tape UAD plugin, so I visually and audibly tried to match the Hum and Hiss of the Otari as well. When I thought I had everything as close as I could get it with the UAD Studer controls, I pulled up vocals, acoustic guitar and drums and just did some fine tuning by ear on the input drive of the plugin as well as the EQ. Funny enough, I think I have a preset on the UAD Plugin that's matching a lot closer to the Otari than I was expecting. I'll play around with it more, but when I do my mega video, I'm definitely going to include that as part of the comparisons and share the preset when I have session files. I think they're still going to be pretty easy to pick out in a shootout consistently, but again, much closer than I thought it was going to be! Anyone have some thoughts or a better idea on setting up a plugin comparison where i can actually match settings and go through a basic calibration process inside another tape plugin? This a good way to see how much technical performance you can get. The plugins do a good job of getting the tape signature. It’s when I start processing things, building the mix, that’s when I notice the thickness and ease of musicality, constantly getting hit over the head with sounds I recognize from records. And I just sort of feel stumped, and satisfied. The downside is sometimes there’s too much distortion and noise. Sometimes it’s too quiet in the highs and so noise is an issue. So you wear your producer hat and think “I’m gonna want clear top end on this” and bake that in with external EQ/compresion. Fun times The other thing is the plugins fail at what I call the lo-fi tape thing, really bad and the lofi thing was extremely common: (“ah crap… it’s a great take but tracked too quietly, or .. oops the preamp was too hot, got to hide this somehow.).. at mixdown it all glued into one cohesive thing and those things aren’t noticed. Not just that, those things somehow add up to awesomeness
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