|
Post by audiospecific on Feb 1, 2024 19:45:42 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Feb 2, 2024 3:36:43 GMT -6
Or not destroyed and doing as well as ever if you’re
Adel Stormzy The Weekend Taylor Swift Ed Sheeran Coldplay Imagined Dragons Ariana Grande Billie Eilish
Blah Blah Blah
It would take me some time to list every act making a fabulous living from the music industry.
It’s evolved, it has always evolved.
Evolution for some means extinction for others.
Styles, fashions and genres come and go …. That’s entertainment folks.
|
|
|
Post by gwlee7 on Feb 2, 2024 6:34:20 GMT -6
The biggest change to me is how the roles of tours and releasing recordings have flipped. Fleetwood Mac toured so you would go to the store and buy their records/tapes/CDs. Taylor Swift releases recordings so you will stream them and then be motivated to come see her tour. Of course, she can create enough “critical mass” to where she can earn decent money streaming since she streams in the billions. Very few others are in such rarified air. Streaming in the millions doesn’t pay much.
The evolution of the music industry mirrors how wealth has been extracted and concentrated in to the hands of very a few in society as a whole. The rest of “us” have less and while the few of “them” take more and more. And that’s “life” folks.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Feb 2, 2024 9:32:16 GMT -6
The biggest change to me is how the roles of tours and releasing recordings have flipped. Fleetwood Mac toured so you would go to the store and buy their records/tapes/CDs. Taylor Swift releases recordings so you will stream them and then be motivated to come see her tour. Of course, she can create enough “critical mass” to where she can earn decent money streaming since she streams in the billions. Very few others are in such rarified air. Streaming in the millions doesn’t pay much. The evolution of the music industry mirrors how wealth has been extracted and concentrated in to the hands of very a few in society as a whole. The rest of “us” have less and while the few of “them” take more and more. And that’s “life” folks. You’re right it’s the same with the internet giants. Amazon Netflix Google Apple Etc A few at the top with 95% of the spoils. The uk musician Union had a recent article that said, be nice to the guy serving you beer at the bar - he might be the singer in your favourite rock band! Tim piece just did a video talking about the wipe out of the “middle classes” in the music industry. Those that supported the “system” and made a very good living doing it. It’s all but been wiped out. It’s 95% DIY 5% in the gilded cage. Evolution. For better or for worse. Evolution never the less.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 2, 2024 12:56:54 GMT -6
I'll look at the Video tonight. But I agree about the sediments. Chris
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 2, 2024 13:10:50 GMT -6
The biggest change to me is how the roles of tours and releasing recordings have flipped. Fleetwood Mac toured so you would go to the store and buy their records/tapes/CDs. Taylor Swift releases recordings so you will stream them and then be motivated to come see her tour. Of course, she can create enough “critical mass” to where she can earn decent money streaming since she streams in the billions. Very few others are in such rarified air. Streaming in the millions doesn’t pay much. The evolution of the music industry mirrors how wealth has been extracted and concentrated in to the hands of very a few in society as a whole. The rest of “us” have less and while the few of “them” take more and more. And that’s “life” folks. You’re right it’s the same with the internet giants. Amazon Netflix Google Apple Etc A few at the top with 95% of the spoils. The uk musician Union had a recent article that said, be nice to the guy serving you beer at the bar - he might be the singer in your favourite rock band! Tim piece just did a video talking about the wipe out of the “middle classes” in the music industry. Those that supported the “system” and made a very good living doing it. It’s all but been wiped out. It’s 95% DIY 5% in the gilded cage. Evolution. For better or for worse. Evolution never the less. Great post THT. Chris
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2024 15:27:24 GMT -6
Or not destroyed and doing as well as ever if you’re Adel Stormzy The Weekend Taylor Swift Ed Sheeran Coldplay Imagined Dragons Ariana Grande Billie Eilish Blah Blah Blah It would take me some time to list every act making a fabulous living from the music industry. It’s evolved, it has always evolved. Evolution for some means extinction for others. Styles, fashions and genres come and go …. That’s entertainment folks. I think the argument is that success has shrunk to a smaller group than ever before. And that argument is correct. No album sales, less artists, less artists less cuts, less cuts less songwriters, less songwriters and artists less musicians, less musicians less studios, less studios less quality…it’s an ecosystem that has been gut-punched. When I first started, there were many songeriters that had made a career out of just having album cuts - no singles. But in say 2006, you get cuts on Rascall Flats, Keith Urban, George Strait, et al…you could make a hell of a living without having a single. Depended on your deal as to whether mechanicals were recouping your draw (most were at the time) but if you had songs on all three of those albums - you’re looking at like 6 million records plus sold. I don’t even know what mechanical rate is now, but at the time it was $.0925 per record sold. That’s $92,500 in mechanicals per record to be split with the co-writer and publisher. That would be worth $555k for 6 million records. Now split that in half because you co-wrote them all - $277.5k. Let’s say you’d been there for 3 years and they advanced you $50k per year…You would be “in the hole” $150k. So, once that $150k is recouped, you get the rest. So, your take home would have been $127.5k. And that was if you could trust the accounting department. Unfortunately, with streaming, there are no mechanicals anymore. Actually, I think streaming might be considered mechanical now at some formula…but just like performance royalties with streaming, the amount paid is an order of magnitude lower. It’s untenable to make a living as a songwriter except for a small circle.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Feb 2, 2024 16:30:09 GMT -6
Or not destroyed and doing as well as ever if you’re Adel Stormzy The Weekend Taylor Swift Ed Sheeran Coldplay Imagined Dragons Ariana Grande Billie Eilish Blah Blah Blah It would take me some time to list every act making a fabulous living from the music industry. It’s evolved, it has always evolved. Evolution for some means extinction for others. Styles, fashions and genres come and go …. That’s entertainment folks. I think the argument is that success has shrunk to a smaller group than ever before. And that argument is correct. No album sales, less artists, less artists less cuts, less cuts less songwriters, less songwriters and artists less musicians, less musicians less studios, less studios less quality…it’s an ecosystem that has been gut-punched. When I first started, there were many songeriters that had made a career out of just having album cuts - no singles. But in say 2006, you get cuts on Rascall Flats, Keith Urban, George Strait, et al…you could make a hell of a living without having a single. Depended on your deal as to whether mechanicals were recouping your draw (most were at the time) but if you had songs on all three of those albums - you’re looking at like 6 million records plus sold. I don’t even know what mechanical rate is now, but at the time it was $.0925 per record sold. That’s $92,500 in mechanicals per record to be split with the co-writer and publisher. That would be worth $555k for 6 million records. Now split that in half because you co-wrote them all - $277.5k. Let’s say you’d been there for 3 years and they advanced you $50k per year…You would be “in the hole” $150k. So, once that $150k is recouped, you get the rest. So, your take home would have been $127.5k. And that was if you could trust the accounting department. Unfortunately, with streaming, there are no mechanicals anymore. Actually, I think streaming might be considered mechanical now at some formula…but just like performance royalties with streaming, the amount paid is an order of magnitude lower. It’s untenable to make a living as a songwriter except for a small circle. Yes, this is exactly what Rick Beato and Tim Pearce say in their latest video “the death of the middle class musician” You’re spot on.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 2, 2024 19:16:20 GMT -6
Tours were the only source of net income prior to the late '60s and albums. The rise of the iPod wiped out what hadn't been destroyed by the crap packaging of CDs.
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Feb 2, 2024 21:15:47 GMT -6
Tours were the only source of net income prior to the late '60s and albums. The rise of the iPod wiped out what hadn't been destroyed by the crap packaging of CDs. I have often wondered if the period from say 62 through to Napster/Spotify/Apple Music was just a really green period for the recorded music industry. The likes of which weren't before and most likely won't come again..... cheers Wiz
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Feb 2, 2024 23:54:39 GMT -6
Tours were the only source of net income prior to the late '60s and albums. The rise of the iPod wiped out what hadn't been destroyed by the crap packaging of CDs. I have often wondered if the period from say 62 through to Napster/Spotify/Apple Music was just a really green period for the recorded music industry. The likes of which weren't before and most likely won't come again..... cheers Wiz I just wonder if the medium is coming to an end…like 20 years soon. I always thought that once people saw that movies on dvd cost only a little more than audio only cds, music started losing value in consumer’s minds. Guess it didn’t help that The Cartel (Labels) were charging like $25/cd. 30 years ago. So people felt anger towards the industry. Anyway - I just think consumers will look at audio only as low tech…and everything is trending multimedia. I could be wrong, though.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Feb 3, 2024 9:24:48 GMT -6
When I'll tell my mum (93) about the woes of the industry I went into at 18 she reminds me about her youth.
My parents rocked the night way (well till 10.30pm) to the sound of Dance Bands in Dance Halls run by Mecca.
She said, so fantastic was the sound of a Dance Band (Big band) in full swing that they and the musicians thought ....
This is going to last forever!
Evolution driven by technology and fashion saw that prophecy turn to dust.
Then came Rock 'n' Roll .... I stood in fields and stadiums at 20 watching Zepp, Rush, Genesis complex LOUD amazing music, so fantastic was the sound, I thought and the musicians thought ....
This is going to last forever!
Evolution driven by technology and fashion saw that prophecy turn to dust.
Rinse and repeat.
|
|
|
Post by frans on Feb 3, 2024 11:50:55 GMT -6
Back then, even the shittiest label had to invest money back into music. Now streaming turns a big part of the profits to computer companies that don't give a rat's arse about musicicans. So what happenes if you bleed and bleed? Have a guess. I try to explain that to people that tell me streaming is soo good. Well, watch the path you're following, it might not lead to a place you wanted to be.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Feb 3, 2024 12:41:49 GMT -6
When I'll tell my mum (93) about the woes of the industry I went into at 18 she reminds me about her youth. My parents rocked the night way (well till 10.30pm) to the sound of Dance Bands in Dance Halls run by Mecca. She said, so fantastic was the sound of a Dance Band (Big band) in full swing that they and the musicians thought .... This is going to last forever! Evolution driven by technology and fashion saw that prophecy turn to dust. Then came Rock 'n' Roll .... I stood in fields and stadiums at 20 watching Zepp, Rush, Genesis complex LOUD amazing music, so fantastic was the sound, I thought and the musicians thought .... This is going to last forever! Evolution driven by technology and fashion saw that prophecy turn to dust. Rinse and repeat. And erven that is being threatened by the onslaught of AI.
|
|
|
Post by christophert on Feb 3, 2024 16:03:03 GMT -6
At least musicians will go back to making music for the right reasons - cause they love it. The people (musicians, engineers, producers) chasing the charts / hits / success etc are doomed. This is a good thing IMO
Even though I have worked with many successful artists, most of my work is done with people who love to make music, they don't expect to make a living from it. The ones that do often teach music as a job - others have a completely unrelated job for income. They tour, do great gigs locally and internationally, record great music, make some merch, and have enough fans to cover expenses, and have a great time making albums and performing, and if all goes well, have some cash left over to inject into the next album.
Success is viewed through a realistic lens.
|
|
|
Post by ironinthepath on Feb 4, 2024 0:09:42 GMT -6
Around the same time that Napster became a thing so did the cell phone and a few years later, the smart phone and pervasive social media, then Netflix and on-demand streaming, and of course semi-addictive Internet forums about gear or other things -- for better or worse all of these things are distractions causing people to spend less time than ever before honing their respective crafts (I have to wonder if we'd ever have had the Beatles, Hendrix, Van Halen if they grew up with smart phones in their hands) --> so this may need to factor into the point I'm about to make.
Since the end of the old-school record company model the number of truly timeless amazing full-length recorded albums (say per 5 year period) has basically bombed to near zero. It's possible that this actually started a couple years earlier for the reasons mentioned in the Beato video.
I think the old school record company concept had its evil side, for sure, but it was also what allowed the most amazing recorded albums ever to come into existence.
Extremely high returns allowed extremely high budgets to be risked on potentially huge projects knowing that a subset will be duds.
High returns also allowed for the possibility of the record company signing young talent and investing in their growth so they can reach top potential (As an example, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers).
A reasonably consistent money-making industry was able to fund a relatively large and extremely talented pool of studio musicians, engineers, etc. and to make it possible for a larger number of truly state-of-the-art studios to keep their doors open. (I guess this is the middle-class point made above)
While some (most?) producers back then might have been content to help the record company make safe returns on derivative stuff, others pushed their artists/bands into new territory and to reach peak talent.
So what I find most sad about all of this is that even the small percentage of people still making serious money in this new environment are largely putting out (relative to the previous masterpieces still getting tons of attention today) low-quality auto-tuned commercialized junk. To be fair, this "junk" is certainly better than my own outputs, so I totally get why they're still able to make a career in music doing what they do, and even I like the occasional single and once in a while I still do like some recent released albums --> but I somehow doubt people 50 years from now will be gushing about how great Ariana Grande or even Taylor Swift's albums were "back in the day".
Could be I've just already reached old man status though :-)
Also, high-quality semi-affordable recording equipment made it possible for duds like me dabble in an art form that wouldn't likely have been possible with the old-school, so gotta look on the bright side!
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 4, 2024 11:44:07 GMT -6
People do LOVE engaging music as a foreground experience where they aren't doing anything else. They just don't get that experience very often today.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2024 12:00:44 GMT -6
People do LOVE engaging music as a foreground experience where they aren't doing anything else. They just don't get that experience very often today. They do and it's absolutely impossible to get ahead of trends. In quite a few parts of Europe, alt / rock / metal is essentially dead and before covid venue's were closing down left right & center. Quite a while after covid I decided to nip out to see a live band on a Friday expecting there to be only me and my mate at the bar watching the band, in this small venue there must have been 300+ people and the rock bands playing if I'm being polite were average. It took nearly an hour to get a drink and most people were getting tetchy besides me who was reveling in the premise that live music might not be dead.
Anyway, I thought it was a fluke and then a small venue setup shop near me. Every Sunday it's packed, a couple of weeks ago I thought I heard something like the sound of a cat dying so I meandered out.. Turns out it was a Led Zeppelin tribute band and guess what? Packed. I don't know what's going on but I'm certainly happy about it..
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 4, 2024 12:20:15 GMT -6
It could be streaming related.
|
|
|
Post by thehightenor on Feb 4, 2024 14:37:33 GMT -6
People do LOVE engaging music as a foreground experience where they aren't doing anything else. They just don't get that experience very often today. Exactly! When I was 16 (44 years ago) music was the center of our youth culture. We gathered at each others houses around the record player and listened endlessly to the bands we loved and followed. Forward 44 years and I watch what music means to my 18 and 21 year old son's and it's generally background noise whilst they are playing video games, watching Youtube tomfoolery and on socail media. It's a very obvious shift in importance and focus to youth culture, they will then take that attitude to music through to their adult lives. My hero's were super star musicians from the bands I loved. Their hero's are Youtubers, social media "influencers" and Youtube comedians/pranksters.
|
|
|
Post by Oneiro on Feb 4, 2024 16:15:23 GMT -6
Hmmm. A lot of thoughts percolating. This will be a mess, so apologies ahead of time. I remember the head of FX, John Landgraf, talking about how 20% of TV consumption is active, meaning something the user seeks out or picks a program specifically, and 80% is passive AKA watching "whatever's on." As a 90s kid that was very excited about the internet's potential, the aggregation and monopolization that has occurred has made it apparent to me that we're at the mercy of a faceless mass choosing convenience above significance. Sometimes that includes any of us. I know I absolutely appreciate shopping via Amazon vs. pissing away a few hours at the grocery store or Home Depot. To me, for meaningless things, that's progress. And I guess I accept that people who don't obsess over music view it that way too. Ironically, Jeff Bezos recently said efficiency and invention are at odds with each other. And he's dead on. The mainstream is just not going to take risks, they want certainty. And they have metrics to know where to put their money. Young, ITB-made, plastic stuff that is simple enough for a global audience to grasp. Go to Southeast Asia and you're gonna hear that two note Ed Sheeran song a million times. Even a singer like Adele could probably make more interesting records than she does, but her balladeering is starkly unadorned because it needs to be as un-specific as possible in presenting what is usually a timeless sentiment. These are business decisions. I'd take issue with the notion that there are virtually no new classic albums, but my guess is that, in aggregate, this place is not inclined towards the genres where I think those classics have been made. Moreover, making music is a beautiful thing. But making money on music has always been a tall order. And frankly, I'll probably catch some heat for this, but I love seeing AI take out the middling graphic designers / artists in the visual realm and I don't mind that it's coming for that tier of musician as well. It's not that I don't think they shouldn't make art. Creation is one of the greatest, most freeing things we do. It's just that getting paid requires you to offer something competitive and the middle is a lot of noise for both the audience and the ones operating at a higher level. So if you want a better paycheck, get better at what you do - world class if you can. Pino Palladino will always work. Chris Dave will always work. Blake Mills, Flying Lotus, Greg Kurstin, etc. They earned that. None of them are accidents. And if there are unknown guys on their level, they're likely missing a big piece of the puzzle somewhere, whether it's the energy to network/share, playing on sub-optimal records, bad health or whatever. In this time, the best thing you can do is be authentic to yourself and uncompromising in your vision - and execute it all as well as you can. If you win, whatever that means, you did it on your terms. If not, you knew the odds were crazy anyway. Taylor Swift's billion dollar tour should've been 20 $50 million tours in a healthier environment. Or maybe 20 $150 million tours. Who knows. But talking about Taylor Swift is like discussing McDonald's when opening your nice restaurant. The intent is different from the get-go - I don't know why people let it consume them so much. It's not for you. These days you want to serve your fans well and make it seem like they matter to you. And the best result is to make those faceless masses feel like they're missing something, that some secret in your work is not being revealed to them. Leverage tribalism for your own benefit. Your fans are your tribe, do right by them and execute at higher and higher levels for yourself and them. I sort of like that the next Led Zeppelin has to put more effort into maintaining a connection with their fans as opposed to pissing away time in the countryside mansion. Personally, I find it more honorable and less transactional. There are people who are millionaires simply because they have a beautiful face, nice curves, etc. and shake their ass on IG all the way to a 2.5M dollar, Toll Brothers cookie cutter house. I'm sorry but you can cry all you want but that's the lizard brain taking over and it's always been that way. We are just getting a front row seat to the mechanics of that process now across a number of domains, including news, sports, food, etc. How many grown 40+ men are subsidizing the lifestyles of young formerly desperate women everywhere? The simp economy is massive, even bigger than my cynical mind could ever imagine. And the same thing happens with hooky brainless pop. It's like being mad that an owl eats a mouse when we are confronted with the reality of passivity and addiction. All I ultimately know is that, if you care about your work mattering, time has the last laugh. That is what you know from Joy Division, Talk Talk's last two records, Nick Drake, Suzanne Cianni, Thelonious Monk, J-Dilla, etc. Great, distinctive work stands up. If someone else could do what you do, don't bother. I personally don't have a problem with that.
My biggest issue with the current environment is the lack of focus and discipline from everyone. People are addicted to everything, including infotainment and the treadmill of "self-improvement." And I do lament that artists have to put in legwork on things they cannot afford to hire for and the lack of focus on their craft is a distraction that diminishes their art.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 4, 2024 18:06:37 GMT -6
Attractive album jackets turned collections of related songs into an active experience. It began with Verve jazz albums and A&M pop albums.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 4, 2024 19:56:43 GMT -6
It could be streaming related. Bob if you wouldn't mind... Any further thoughts? Thanks.Chris
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Feb 4, 2024 20:18:15 GMT -6
Live streaming during covid.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Feb 4, 2024 22:22:14 GMT -6
Oh OK. I get the context now.
How much do you guys think of the "Curator Role" approach now? (so much music out there now vs. Past) Like hosting shows for people ACTUALLY into learning about Genre(s)/History/Stories/etc? Chris
|
|