liamh
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by liamh on Jan 30, 2024 18:28:37 GMT -6
Hi All,
I was recently made aware of this site via the Fractal Audio Systems forums by @johnkenn. I've read through a few recent threads, and haven't searched in depth, but have a few (potentially newbie) questions. If I'm asking things that were done to death last month, don't stone me, I'll be grateful for a little redirection! I'll keep the intro as brief as possible, but apologise for the length of my first post.
I have a very small, but very professionally made 2 room studio. Can't remember dimensions, but live room comfortably houses a 4-5 piece band; control room is on the small side, but is very well treated acoustically, and sounds a lot better than it ought to through Adam A5Xs and Sub8. I have about 24 lines of input from the live room to the control room. Can't remember how many going back the other way, but could probably use 6 pairs of stereo headphones at a minimum. The rooms are extremely well isolated from one another acoustically. (Rooms in rooms, big airlock in between them, all built on isolating materials, heavy multilayer walls with decent size air-gaps, professional studio doors throughout, in fact a professionally built studio.) In short, not much expense spared on the rooms and acoustics.
I have my first recording project in mind now (over 2 1/2 years after finishing the studio build, got busy with other things, so has mainly been used as a very nice rehearsal space, with a listening room as an adjunct). Having spent on infrastructure, I really need to get to some thoughts on ideal mics and outboard to go with the setup. This will be for recording a 4-piece pop/rock/alt. rock band. Original material, and creative options will all be used. Need the facility to record full band with acoustic drums, though probably not at final quality for all instruments.
The probable "non-variables" are Studio One DAW on Windows, Presonus StudioLive 32R as main interface (don't judge, it's amazing as a live mixer). The 32R has been core to a PA rig I've been using, and I already have a bunch of mics I've been using with it. SM58s, SM57s, e604s, C1000s, D112. Also a pair of Rode M5 that I bought as overheads for live. They don't work all that well for that, but I guess they must have some other purpose that will be divinely intended at some point.
Apologies for the long intro, I'll cut to the chase now!
What mics do I need? I just bought a Neumann TLM-103 as a "fair budget, but quality" large diaphragm condenser mic. My biggest concern is finding mics for the drum kit. I've been recommended Audix as a 5-piece kit, but I'm always nervous of things that aren't brands I know from ancient analogue days. Will probably use Fractal Axe FX III, maybe even AFX II (still have one), for most guitars and bass. I would love to hear suggestions for mic'ing guitar cabs beyond the current armoury especially from ancient analogue people like myself.
On preamps, well... The Presonus 32R is equipped with preamps, EQ, and line effects on every input channel, and a load of parallel effects channels. They are just great for live work, but so far I have never though to myself, "Oh my word, those 32R preamps sound so amazing I just have to record with one of them!" But they do sound just pretty good with line level, and everything set flat (the noise gates are pretty good, can live with those). So I think I need some preamps to do justice to some of the recorded sounds. What should I be considering?
Next, outboard. I'm not too worried about noise gates, but I do wonder if there are any effects that suffer badly from DAW/digital processor integration rather than rack-mount or 500 channel strip. I know my way around guitar effects and their digital implementations pretty well, but have not needed to think about post-digital age drums and vocals so much. Are there any "must have" outboard effects?
And very finally, pre-amps and outboard, 19" rack vs. channel strip, or a bit of both? Is it worth choosing a favourite direction early? I'm not planning to have more than the minimum of outboard, and should have space for a combination. However they might be quite separated from one another in the control room, so I'm trying to favour a minimalist approach.
Budget isn't quite immaterial, but the studio so far has been significant. If it gets me to where I need to be, I'll find the money for it.
Thanks for reading, and responses appreciated.
Liam
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2024 19:18:38 GMT -6
"Budget isn't quite immaterial, but the studio so far has been significant."
We need to talk about this bit.. If cost is an issue, stay away from hardware.
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Post by notneeson on Jan 30, 2024 19:53:01 GMT -6
Hey! My name is Liam too (I don’t know many of us).
You are going to want to focus on mics first.
Couple good large diaphragm condensers that can do drum overheads and vocals would be a really clutch purchase. You can do a whole kit with those and a few dynamics. Don’t let great be the enemy of good.
Do you have a budget in mind?
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Post by doubledog on Jan 30, 2024 20:06:11 GMT -6
Audix makes some nice mics (like the D series D2, D4, D6) and then they have a budget lines (the F or fusion series). If you get the D-series you'll likely be happy. The F are more for live sound. Or do the typical and get a couple MD-421's for toms. Audix D6 and Shure Beta52a are popular for kick - maybe you already have one of those? Then get a good pair of overheads or just try the Rode M5's first and see what is missing (or what you don't like). I bought some of the Lauten LA-220V2 for overheads awhile ago and I like them (and not too expensive).
Honestly I think you can start with just about anything and then as you do more sessions you will learn what you like or don't like about each mic/source and to me that's some of the best knowledge to have (where a mic sounds good or does not).
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Post by enlav on Jan 30, 2024 23:47:37 GMT -6
Welcome! I was doing something similar with an X32 as my mobile recording front-end sometime back. There's a nice upside to using a digital mixer with their ridiculous flexibility. On preamps, well... The Presonus 32R is equipped with preamps, EQ, and line effects on every input channel, and a load of parallel effects channels. They are just great for live work, but so far I have never though to myself, "Oh my word, those 32R preamps sound so amazing I just have to record with one of them!" But they do sound just pretty good with line level, and everything set flat (the noise gates are pretty good, can live with those). So I think I need some preamps to do justice to some of the recorded sounds. What should I be considering? Next, outboard. I'm not too worried about noise gates, but I do wonder if there are any effects that suffer badly from DAW/digital processor integration rather than rack-mount or 500 channel strip. I know my way around guitar effects and their digital implementations pretty well, but have not needed to think about post-digital age drums and vocals so much. Are there any "must have" outboard effects? So normally I would note that preamps make less of a difference than mic choice and direct you more toward that route... but it might be worth finding something clean with lots of gain to compare against your Studiolive. The only reason I make this distinction is that my experience with the first generation Studiolive 16.4.2 was that they were kind of veiled. Or warm. Dark? Choose your adjectives, but compared to the ADAT HD24's I was using prior (console that was feeding it was not consistent, but mostly some A&H GL boards). Obviously, a lot was in that 16.4.2, so even if the preamp is the -exact same- it could still end up sounding entirely different from the current SL lineups.
Back to my point - it might be worth seeing if a nearby retailer has something... or maybe anything... a Neve-style preamp, Daking One, ISA One, Grace, whatever -- and just testing out some mic's through the 32R on its own and then through whatever preamp you can rent and see if the extra hassle is worth it.
Generally though, you'll be far more WOW'd by choosing the right mic's on the right sources, or in some cases, replacing the source with a better-suited-for-the-song/project source (Hello snare drums). On the topic of hardware/outboard processing vs. digital processing... plugins will do everything you need to in order to get a great recording. Not sure how good the Studio Live processing is, but I'd generally leave everything off on it and rely on the DAW and your plugins. Don't get me wrong, I love hardware... and preamps! I have more preamps than I have available AD-converters! I have more channels of compression than I have converters (when I factor in I need certain channels for monitoring)! And I'm still buying MORE! When does that IAA compressor come out? If I get the Silver Bullet and Fairi-mu module, would that count as two more channels? Or is that exempt?
But really - if all of this is just one big pizza - your mics, stands, cables, room and centerpiece (digital mixer) are all the core ingredients: flour, oil, water, tomatoes, cheese. Figuring out how to make that basic pizza first and then deciding on your toppings is probably the best route to go.
That reminds me: if you don't already have nice, heavy duty stands for overheads, I'd look at that too. Especially if you invest in new mic's for overheads.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2024 2:37:06 GMT -6
Plenty of dough is kneaded.
Chris
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 31, 2024 2:57:30 GMT -6
"Budget isn't quite immaterial, but the studio so far has been significant." We need to talk about this bit.. If cost is an issue, stay away from hardware. Yeah, no need for any suggestions from SK. It might be expensive …. For me  |
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Post by thehightenor on Jan 31, 2024 3:07:45 GMT -6
Plenty of dough is kneaded. Chris Chris, I knew you'd rise to the occasion. |
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Post by RealNoob on Jan 31, 2024 14:19:28 GMT -6
Hi All, I was recently made aware of this site via the Fractal Audio Systems forums by @johnkenn. I've read through a few recent threads, and haven't searched in depth, but have a few (potentially newbie) questions. If I'm asking things that were done to death last month, don't stone me, I'll be grateful for a little redirection! I'll keep the intro as brief as possible, but apologise for the length of my first post. I have a very small, but very professionally made 2 room studio. Can't remember dimensions, but live room comfortably houses a 4-5 piece band; control room is on the small side, but is very well treated acoustically, and sounds a lot better than it ought to through Adam A5Xs and Sub8. I have about 24 lines of input from the live room to the control room. Can't remember how many going back the other way, but could probably use 6 pairs of stereo headphones at a minimum. The rooms are extremely well isolated from one another acoustically. (Rooms in rooms, big airlock in between them, all built on isolating materials, heavy multilayer walls with decent size air-gaps, professional studio doors throughout, in fact a professionally built studio.) In short, not much expense spared on the rooms and acoustics. I have my first recording project in mind now (over 2 1/2 years after finishing the studio build, got busy with other things, so has mainly been used as a very nice rehearsal space, with a listening room as an adjunct). Having spent on infrastructure, I really need to get to some thoughts on ideal mics and outboard to go with the setup. This will be for recording a 4-piece pop/rock/alt. rock band. Original material, and creative options will all be used. Need the facility to record full band with acoustic drums, though probably not at final quality for all instruments. The probable "non-variables" are Studio One DAW on Windows, Presonus StudioLive 32R as main interface (don't judge, it's amazing as a live mixer). The 32R has been core to a PA rig I've been using, and I already have a bunch of mics I've been using with it. SM58s, SM57s, e604s, C1000s, D112. Also a pair of Rode M5 that I bought as overheads for live. They don't work all that well for that, but I guess they must have some other purpose that will be divinely intended at some point. Apologies for the long intro, I'll cut to the chase now! What mics do I need? I just bought a Neumann TLM-103 as a "fair budget, but quality" large diaphragm condenser mic. My biggest concern is finding mics for the drum kit. I've been recommended Audix as a 5-piece kit, but I'm always nervous of things that aren't brands I know from ancient analogue days. Will probably use Fractal Axe FX III, maybe even AFX II (still have one), for most guitars and bass. I would love to hear suggestions for mic'ing guitar cabs beyond the current armoury especially from ancient analogue people like myself. On preamps, well... The Presonus 32R is equipped with preamps, EQ, and line effects on every input channel, and a load of parallel effects channels. They are just great for live work, but so far I have never though to myself, "Oh my word, those 32R preamps sound so amazing I just have to record with one of them!" But they do sound just pretty good with line level, and everything set flat (the noise gates are pretty good, can live with those). So I think I need some preamps to do justice to some of the recorded sounds. What should I be considering? Next, outboard. I'm not too worried about noise gates, but I do wonder if there are any effects that suffer badly from DAW/digital processor integration rather than rack-mount or 500 channel strip. I know my way around guitar effects and their digital implementations pretty well, but have not needed to think about post-digital age drums and vocals so much. Are there any "must have" outboard effects? And very finally, pre-amps and outboard, 19" rack vs. channel strip, or a bit of both? Is it worth choosing a favourite direction early? I'm not planning to have more than the minimum of outboard, and should have space for a combination. However they might be quite separated from one another in the control room, so I'm trying to favour a minimalist approach. Budget isn't quite immaterial, but the studio so far has been significant. If it gets me to where I need to be, I'll find the money for it. Thanks for reading, and responses appreciated. Liam I was where you are fairly recently. Here are my thoughts. 1) Mics: Get a Solid LDC for recording vocals and a pair of pencil mics. Look around here for the most recommended LDC in your price range. There are a lot of YouTube comparisons as well that will give you an idea of the flavor/tone. You could do well with Warm Audio mics as a mid-range stepping stone. 2) Preamps: I was a long time Presonus user with various boards, the Scepter series speakers and I still have a set of live speakers with subs that are really good for point source use. A dedicated preamp will first bring focus to your sound. The way I see it is that most board and interface preamps are comparable to an ink pen dot on a paper towel. You touch it and it bleeds beyond the expected area. A good quality preamp will stay focused, providing better separation and punchiness. My first was a Daking Mic Pre One. It did a great job. Others mentioned here will do great as well. 3) Effects: don't get caught up in outboard effects yet. There are plenty good quality effects in the box that will serve you well like D16 delay, Seventh Heaven Verb, Relab 480L Verb. 4) Outboard gear: there are 2 frequently recommend first steps. First is a money channel (front end) for recording - either a single or stereo channel with a preamp, EQ and compressor. You could start with a Heritage Micpre and EQ and add a compressor to it. The second recommendation is to start with hardware for masterbus processing like an EQ and Compressor or Tape Emulations for warmth and density. These in mind, I decided to go 500 series - as past the buy of the rack (I purchased a Neve 10spot that was a demo to save), the processors are generally cheaper. I grabed the Neve tape emulaltors, an SSL UV500 EQ (for corrective eq), an Elysia xPressor (what I could afford) and a pair of Iron Age Audio EQs for adding weight and top end. If I now grab a pair of 500 series mic preamps, my rack will serve both options - a front end and bus processing. All this said, I believe you could get a LOT of mileage and success with a few mics, upgrading your conversion, upgrading speaker, putting some treatment on the walls and using Sonarworks. What you hear affects everything. I have produced 8 live albums for a local group with tracks captured on an X32 and DLive mixer. Being able to hear and using saturation, EQ and compression plugins has done well. hope something of this helps. |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 31, 2024 16:03:48 GMT -6
THT...My humour has a stiff Penalty. For early withdrawal.  Chris |
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liamh
New Member
Posts: 6
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Post by liamh on Jan 31, 2024 17:36:51 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, some really helpful things in every one of them (or at very least made me chuckle). In terms of budget, I spent around $115k on the initial studio build, not helped by the fact I had to have some structural work done on the building that houses it to get it in there. So I don't want to sell myself short on recording gear. @soriantis, I don't particularly want to spend more than $10k on further recording gear immediately, but I do realise that kind of money can disappear in the wink of an eye on mics and outboard. Especially here in the UK. I'll be costing some of the suggestions while I consider. notneeson , I was a rarity as a Liam too. And then I got a job in Blackburn, Lancashire, UK about 12 years ago. The place is alive with us all, Liams everywhere! I hadn't really thought about LDC overheads for drums. Is another Neumann TLM-103 to join the one I got for vocals a good call? I'd equally be interested in getting a pair of something a little lower in budget with a different sound, and that might also be useful for other purposes. MD-421 II? doubledog , good to get another opinion in favour of Audix D series. MD-421s are becoming a bit of a theme! I think I know where I'm going with drum mics, but will check out all suggestions. enlav , your response made me smile. The Presonus internal preamps are great for live work, but I'm constantly surprised how extreme the EQ settings sometimes have to be to make a mic "pop" in the mix. I have similar difficulties describing just what the adjective is. They just don't sparkle. But they are an amazing "jack of all trades", and to have that level of control via software means I can easily live with them for live work. I actually live just 5 miles away from the Neve factory in Burnley, but will be surprised if they have a factory showroom.  I think in my case a decent 2-channel mic preamp might be on the shopping list. Just remembered though, I still have an old Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen that surprised me for preamp quality. Might give that one a try first. Good call on stands for overheads, my gigging stands won't be that stable with LDCs supported over a drum kit. RealNoob 1) I'm hoping the TLM-103 will cover vocals for now. Rode M5 weren't a complete mistake for pencil mics, as they are really good value, and do a job. But my Behringer calibrated measurement mic sounds better at even lower cost (although nothing like as road-worthy I'm sure). I think a pair of pencil mics stays on the list, and I'll choose more carefully next time. 2) Daking Mic Pre One looks like exactly the sort of thing I really want to own! One of my old friends from back in the day has suggested the Neumann U67 set, but it's outrageously expensive. Might be some of the way there with a TLM-103 and a nice tube preamp. 3) Plug-in effects are pretty good in a DAW, understood. I have a couple of Fractal Audio guitar processors that will also provide amazing quality stereo outboard effects if I need them to. 4) OK, now you've got me thinking about 500 series modules, but the $10k budget might not last so long! I could probably find space for 3U of modular goodness, if I can bite my lip and commit to a budget. I guess it's a question of mic preamp first purchase needs, wants and expectations. My gut feel is that compression will be the next inevitable one. Hopefully I'll feel more excited by the mic preamps in the Scarlett, giving me a bit of time to decide on 19" units or a 500 series frame and some spaces to fill. Thanks again for all the really useful input. You have no idea how helpful this has been, I really appreciate it. Liam |
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Post by notneeson on Jan 31, 2024 18:10:14 GMT -6
I don’t have hands on experience with TLM103s, if you like it for vocals that’s all that matters. 421s work on certain voices, but not a go to for me. Have had success on female more than male. RE20 or SM7 might be better choices because they can also work well on bass amp and kick drum. Reading more closely your original post, you’ve got workable mics to get started and really try and find a great drum sound. I could really see getting something like a great U67 clone for mono room mic, vocals, and acoustic instruments. beesneezproaudio.com/product/classic-b67-269-version-2/Your gear is just a tad vanilla overall, and a utility mic with some character might really add a lot. Maybe that and just a pair of great 500 series preamps to start with and add things in as you learn more. I will say, Alt rock can be a VERY processed sounding genre. You can get a long way with plugins but work on trying to learn what techniques are being used in the mixes that inspire you. |
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Post by smashlord on Jan 31, 2024 18:33:22 GMT -6
Plenty of dough is kneaded. Chris Chris, I knew you'd rise to the occasion. It's the yeast he could do..... Sorry, was that one a bit crumby? |
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Post by smashlord on Jan 31, 2024 19:12:47 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, some really helpful things in every one of them (or at very least made me chuckle). In terms of budget, I spent around $115k on the initial studio build, not helped by the fact I had to have some structural work done on the building that houses it to get it in there. So I don't want to sell myself short on recording gear. @soriantis , I don't particularly want to spend more than $10k on further recording gear immediately, but I do realise that kind of money can disappear in the wink of an eye on mics and outboard. Especially here in the UK. I'll be costing some of the suggestions while I consider. notneeson , I was a rarity as a Liam too. And then I got a job in Blackburn, Lancashire, UK about 12 years ago. The place is alive with us all, Liams everywhere! I hadn't really thought about LDC overheads for drums. Is another Neumann TLM-103 to join the one I got for vocals a good call? I'd equally be interested in getting a pair of something a little lower in budget with a different sound, and that might also be useful for other purposes. MD-421 II? doubledog , good to get another opinion in favour of Audix D series. MD-421s are becoming a bit of a theme! I think I know where I'm going with drum mics, but will check out all suggestions. enlav , your response made me smile. The Presonus internal preamps are great for live work, but I'm constantly surprised how extreme the EQ settings sometimes have to be to make a mic "pop" in the mix. I have similar difficulties describing just what the adjective is. They just don't sparkle. But they are an amazing "jack of all trades", and to have that level of control via software means I can easily live with them for live work. I actually live just 5 miles away from the Neve factory in Burnley, but will be surprised if they have a factory showroom. I think in my case a decent 2-channel mic preamp might be on the shopping list. Just remembered though, I still have an old Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen that surprised me for preamp quality. Might give that one a try first. Good call on stands for overheads, my gigging stands won't be that stable with LDCs supported over a drum kit. RealNoob 1) I'm hoping the TLM-103 will cover vocals for now. Rode M5 weren't a complete mistake for pencil mics, as they are really good value, and do a job. But my Behringer calibrated measurement mic sounds better at even lower cost (although nothing like as road-worthy I'm sure). I think a pair of pencil mics stays on the list, and I'll choose more carefully next time. 2) Daking Mic Pre One looks like exactly the sort of thing I really want to own! One of my old friends from back in the day has suggested the Neumann U67 set, but it's outrageously expensive. Might be some of the way there with a TLM-103 and a nice tube preamp. 3) Plug-in effects are pretty good in a DAW, understood. I have a couple of Fractal Audio guitar processors that will also provide amazing quality stereo outboard effects if I need them to. 4) OK, now you've got me thinking about 500 series modules, but the $10k budget might not last so long! I could probably find space for 3U of modular goodness, if I can bite my lip and commit to a budget. I guess it's a question of mic preamp first purchase needs, wants and expectations. My gut feel is that compression will be the next inevitable one. Hopefully I'll feel more excited by the mic preamps in the Scarlett, giving me a bit of time to decide on 19" units or a 500 series frame and some spaces to fill. Thanks again for all the really useful input. You have no idea how helpful this has been, I really appreciate it. Liam So as others have mentioned, I would forgo any HW outboard processing for the time being. A good mic collection and some solid pre amps will take you much further. For drum mics, I would probably recommend against the Audix pack. The Audio D6 has a STRONG sound that is not very versatile. It's great for aggressive metal and thats about it. The i5 has its fans, but you already have SM57s, which cover the same ground and still sound great on a snare drum and even a rack tom in a pinch. Honestly, I'd stick with the 57s, the D112 and put the money into something nice for the overheads. You can pick up a great pair of SDCs for overheads for what you'd spend on that mic pack or a nice set of LDCs if you want to stretch things a bit more. Some suggestions: Won't break the bank, but solid: KSM32s- great on OHs, toms, guitar cab. Not bad on male voices. SM81s- Not super exciting, but will never sound bad. Also solid on acoustic guitars and many other sources. Little more, but cry once, buy once: Soyuz 013 FETs- very smooth on overheads. Neumann KM184s- "Its not a KM84!!!!!" .... yeah, whatever. Still great on overheads and used pairs can be had at a reasonable price. Soyuz 023- Great on OHs, drum room, kick out, toms, guitar cab, woodwinds, acoustic guitar, and vocals... a serious workhorse mic that always sounds above average to "oh man, that's the thing!" on just about any source. (This would be my #1 pick). For toms, ATM25s are nice if you feel like searching Reverb, otherwise MD421s still work and are useful many other places. Beyer M88 is another choice, although a bit dark for my tastes. That said, it can provide a good alternative kick mic for you if you feel the D112 is not right for the song and you can toss the D112 on the floor tom, as it is a solid floor Tom Mic in a rock context. Beyer M160s can also be cool on OHS, drum rooms, as well as many other sources. For pres, its hard to beat a used API 3124 for value. They sound great on drums and will give you 4 in one 19" slot. If you want to go 500 series, CAPIs are pro level pres as reasonable prices. If I was to throw together a drum rig for under $10K that would be keep forever pieces that also have utility elsewhere: 2x API 3124s- About $4500 if bought used 2x Soyuz 023s- about $2K if bought used or KM184s/Soyuz 013 FETS @ about $1200 a pair used Beyer M88- $300 new... do not buy used! These are easily blown out on kick drums if one doesnt used a windscreen. 2 or 3 MD421s or ATM25s- about $500 to $900 The rest you got already. If you must spend the extra $2000-$2500... still get more mics before any outboard. M160s, M201, SM7B, AEA R84... all super useful on drums as well as other things and are forever pieces. |
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Post by mattbroiler on Jan 31, 2024 20:02:23 GMT -6
Not to get into the heavy gear choice details too much but I think deciding if you want to go with 19" rack gear or 500 series or something else ahead of time is a good move. Obviously you have the mixer and are familiar with it so building around that piece makes sense for the future expansion and getting things done easily along the way.
When I started out with the home studio upgrade I did not know much more than being a guitar player in bands so I was used to amps and drums some PA gear dynamic mics for vocals/instruments and small analog mixers etc.
I already had some rack gear that I like and still use - digital delays compressors power amps and so on and knew nothing of 500 series so I decided to go with rack gear for the studio stuff as well.
This turned out to be a good decision because I ended up with rack audio interfaces, rack preamps and comps and so on and it all fits together nicely. Also stacks of rack gear take less space than a medium or larger sized mixing console that requires a permanent desk space and likely a larger room to be usable. I still have never gone in for 500 series for the same reasons, I have no experience with it and can't envision how it would get integrated and used with the stuff I have.
So yes thinking it through in the beginning and making those types of decisions now will pay off down the line. Best of luck with the studio build and have fun with your musical projects!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 0:20:08 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses, some really helpful things in every one of them (or at very least made me chuckle). In terms of budget, I spent around $115k on the initial studio build, not helped by the fact I had to have some structural work done on the building that houses it to get it in there. So I don't want to sell myself short on recording gear. @soriantis , I don't particularly want to spend more than $10k on further recording gear immediately, but I do realise that kind of money can disappear in the wink of an eye on mics and outboard. Especially here in the UK. I'll be costing some of the suggestions while I consider. 2) Daking Mic Pre One looks like exactly the sort of thing I really want to own! One of my old friends from back in the day has suggested the Neumann U67 set, but it's outrageously expensive. Might be some of the way there with a TLM-103 and a nice tube preamp. 3) Plug-in effects are pretty good in a DAW, understood. I have a couple of Fractal Audio guitar processors that will also provide amazing quality stereo outboard effects if I need them to. 4) OK, now you've got me thinking about 500 series modules, but the $10k budget might not last so long! I could probably find space for 3U of modular goodness, if I can bite my lip and commit to a budget. I guess it's a question of mic preamp first purchase needs, wants and expectations. My gut feel is that compression will be the next inevitable one. Hopefully I'll feel more excited by the mic preamps in the Scarlett, giving me a bit of time to decide on 19" units or a 500 series frame and some spaces to fill. Thanks again for all the really useful input. You have no idea how helpful this has been, I really appreciate it. Liam I'm currently running a hybrid studio and by the beard of Zeus it's expensive. For a 4 X 2 (4X "money" tracking strip & 2 bus master) it came to oh my word, $41K (roughly) all in or £32165 in our money. This does not include, monitors, cables, patch bays, the room itself, treatment, instruments etc. For a hypothetical 16 channel setup going by what I've got I'd be in it (for everything) well over $300K. Oh, don't get me wrong I have tried to cheap out every chance I get but it often doesn't work as expected, reason why I mention this is the following:
> Firstly I'd highly recommend that you get some Beyer DT (headphones), I'd use them over the Adam's any day of the week. Good monitors in my experience tend to start from around $4K a pair upwards. There's a few exceptions but not many..
> The rest depends on how you're tracking. If it's as a band then don't bother with HW, use plugins and the 32R, there's not enough budget here to do anything with.
> If you're going to do some one at a time tracking, then a couple of RND Newtons (Link / for stereo) or a 500 channel strip with some choice Buzz audio modules will more than do it. IAA is also great if you're doing one at a time tracking.
> As for mic's, Shure KSM's would tick off the utilitarian mic checkbox and if you're feeling posh I'd go for a Telefunken DC6 set for the kit. I've used the Audix one's, they're fine but if I'd just spent $115K on a room they wouldn't be my first choice. TLM 103 is an interesting choice, it must have won the award for the most polarizing mic in terms of opinions in existence.
> If you're at any point excited about the amps in the Scarlett how bad are the Presonus one's?
> I think you could in the future be the perfect candidate for something like an Audient ASP 4816 (HE), not the standard edition.. NO, the heratige model. I've heard an API the box and Neve 8424, I was quite impressed by the upgraded Audient. Anyway, if you're going down the HW path just keep this in mind because my hybrid solution ended up costing more. In hindsight I would have just bought a console. Also I'm not here to save people money , just ask thehightenor
> Finally, reach out to Stefan at KMR Audio.. They know their stuff and can really help you get set up.
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Post by thehightenor on Feb 1, 2024 3:07:56 GMT -6
I bought a TLM 103 from a close friend, mates rates! It was pretty awkward situation, I hadn’t tried one before and the price was £300 so I grabbed the offer. Got it home, tried it, then I had to work out the minimum time I had to keep it until he wouldn’t be annoyed at me for selling it on. Shadowk - I have long admired that small Audient desk. Not sure what the HE model is, but if they did a version with flying faders it would be a very tempting desk to buy. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 3:19:19 GMT -6
I bought a TLM 103 from a close friend, mates rates! It was pretty awkward situation, I hadn’t tried one before and the price was £300 so I grabbed the offer. Got it home, tried it, then I had to work out the minimum time I had to keep it until he wouldn’t be annoyed at me for selling it on. Shadowk - I have long admired that small Audient desk. Not sure what the HE model is, but if they did a version with flying faders it would be a very tempting desk to buy. Yeah, I hope Audient do add a flying fader pannel at some point. I believe one of the biggest complaints with the original Audient ASP 4816 was it's a great clean sounding board but just a bit boring. So with the heratige edition they added a transformer based vintage mix bus, also the upgraded SSL type VCA with a sidechain / HPF was a welcome addition as well.
New Features Overview:
Newly Designed Cosmetics
Monitoring Grade Headphone Output
Vintage Mix Bus Processing
Bus Compression Bass Expand
Foot-switch for Talkback Control
Gain Reduction VU Meter
All-metal Main Output Pot
Handmade Wooden Armrest
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liamh
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Post by liamh on Feb 1, 2024 18:29:22 GMT -6
> Firstly I'd highly recommend that you get some Beyer DT (headphones), I'd use them over the Adam's any day of the week. Good monitors in my experience tend to start from around $4K a pair upwards. There's a few exceptions but not many.. I have lots of pairs of headphones, including Beyerdynamic. If the control room was even a little bigger, I'd think about better nearfield monitors, but it's just too small a room to justify spending on anything that the space can't do justice to, despite being treated so it sounds rather better than I'd expect from a 3m x 4.5m room. The Adams have a better feel and separation than the relative audio confinement of headphones, and are actually quite enjoyable to listen to in that room. There can definitely be more budget if it is of value to me. I said I'm hoping to spend less than $10k immediately, but if $20k or more is needed to buy some mics and preamps to do remote justice, I can just increase the budget. The $115k studio build cost was just to give an idea of the overall project intent. I'm sure I must have spent an additional $15k already on furniture, monitors, leads, Presonus 32R, etc. It's kind of mixed in with things I have needed for live sound, and a penchant for nice guitars made in the 1950s, all of which I haven't included. Point taken, but the constraint on budget is more about being able to justify the spend to myself, rather than any lack of available funds. I've been very fortunate... I'll look into those, thanks for the heads up That is really helpful. TLM-103 was on the recommendation of an old friend that did live sound and some production for bands I played in back in the 90s. I trust his ears implicitly, but of course our relative musical tastes may have changed over time. Telefunken DC6 definitely has a more trustworthy name for a drum kit microphone set! Neither of them are bad, but the Scarlett amps feel like a genuine preamp with a switchable pad. I can kind of live with them, they sound good, but not great. The Presonus amps try to do the same thing with a single level control. I can dial in a good live sound with a fair bit of EQ, but it would feel awkward as a starting point for a recorded sound. I think I'm going to need preamps! I'll have a careful look at that, the time might actually be now. I'm in the fortunate position that it's definitely not out of the question. I priced up for a few much more expensive combined digital options before buying the Presonus 32R, but most offered very little in terms of "bang per buck" (more channels, better digital resolution, but similar issues in limitations of likely preamp quality). The 32R will have cost me nothing if it stays in the rack for going out to gigs. It does that bit exceptionally well, and is incredibly flexibl Had a quick look at the website. You may have just opened Pandora's box! Give me a few months and I'll know whether to thank you or hate you for that. Liam |
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liamh
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Post by liamh on Feb 1, 2024 18:58:06 GMT -6
Not to get into the heavy gear choice details too much but I think deciding if you want to go with 19" rack gear or 500 series or something else ahead of time is a good move. Obviously you have the mixer and are familiar with it so building around that piece makes sense for the future expansion and getting things done easily along the way. <snip> So yes thinking it through in the beginning and making those types of decisions now will pay off down the line. Best of luck with the studio build and have fun with your musical projects! Thanks Matt, views appreciated, especially 19" rack vs. 500 series. The studio build was actually completed back in 2021, but 2022 and 2023 were spoiled sorting out air-con and electrical RFI gremlins that bugged me too much to consider recording in the rooms. Turns out to be easy to fix when you find the right people, but they are not easily found on internet forums. I've at least installed basic recording kit. I've also used the live room for band rehearsals, and the control room for listening and working for a couple of years. Main thing I need to do now is buy the right recording gear and get on with it. Won't be plug and play, but hopefully with the right equipment it will not be too disappointing. The control room, while too small to sound good, has been the opposite of disappointing. Might only only be Adam A5X and Sub8, but the separation and detail is absolutely phenomenal for a 3m x 4.5m room. Got to wonder if the space is at least as important as the equipment playing in it. Liam |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 1, 2024 19:49:55 GMT -6
Genelec "the one's" (8341) are your friends here, the ultimate point source nearfield monitors for less than ideal rooms. Their GLM room correction software is stellar..Well, I'll get out a notepad and see what I can do .. The Audient console would wrap up a lot of things neatly or you could try a hybrid solution like mine if you're feeling brave. There are pro's / con's to each method.Go and demo an RND Shelford channel (3.5K) and then tell me how good those Scarlett or Presonus amps are. I'd like to think I'm not an audio gear snob and hey I'm all up for spending less but some additions are so noteworthy you wonder why you didn't just do it before. Obviously a rack of Shelfords are unfeasable unless you're a millionaire but it gives you something to compare everything against. I bought an SSL Big Six mixer which is more expensive than your Presonus & Scarlett, especially when you factor in channel count but the preamps are meh on that. As a routing hub for hardware with a bit of 2 bus compression it sounds great but you'll never get a board under $20K with good everything for studio recordings or a $200.00 interface with amazing everything. They cheap out, they have to to meet a budget, it's simple economics.Well my bank account already hates me and probably everyone that I've recommended equipment to, join the queue .. P.S if you're ever in my neck of the woods you're welcome to listen / demo some of the equipment I have (if you're sane that is).. Old pic but it does.. |
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Post by enlav on Feb 2, 2024 11:45:28 GMT -6
[...] I'm constantly surprised how extreme the EQ settings sometimes have to be to make a mic "pop" in the mix. I have similar difficulties describing just what the adjective is. They just don't sparkle.[...] I'm glad it's not just me, assuming the sound hasn't change too much over the years. Hearing that definitely makes me think an external preamp would be worth trying.
I'll also vouch for the Daking. I would only note, don't be surprised if the TLM103 sounds better on the Studiolive since that mic has a bit of a reputation of being bright. The Daking isn't a overly bright or anything, but it might seem so comparing back to back with the mixer's preamps. Most other sources/mics will likely just sound more present/clearer.
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liamh
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Post by liamh on Feb 2, 2024 17:07:06 GMT -6
Thanks again for further replies. This thread is turning into an amazingly helpful reference for me.
@soriantis, re: Genelec 8341s, good call! I think probably with their companion 7370 subwoofer are probably what I ultimately need. About 6 times the cost of the Adam setup I'm pretty happy with for now (nice sounding room, despite being small really helps), but once I get around to mixing anything in there, it will be money well spent. Can wait until after mics and preamps though. But if the Genelecs can tolerate a poorly treated small room, they'll be amazing in a good sounding one.
Audient ASP 4816 HE looks amazingly like my sort of thing, but just won't suit the workspace and workflow. I'd really need a patch bay, and a rethink of mainly digital routing to make use of it. Should have built a bigger control room! But never say never, this might not be my last studio build, or I might reconfigure for another iteration one of these days.
I don't think I'm feeling brave enough to go hybrid yet. (It was an potential intent during the studio build, but I still have the odd full band live gig to do the sound for, so nicking the 32R out of the rack for an evening really did kill 2 birds with one stone). Most likely for now is just to add to and upgrade recording gear around the 32R, keeping most effects, etc. within the DAW. I'll then consign the 32R to live sound duties only when I am ready for some better quality AD/DA conversion.
Where is your neck of the woods? I think I mentioned I'm in East Lancashire, but I do occasionally venture out. Studio looks amazing, I am relatively sane, too.
Liam
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I think in my case a decent 2-channel mic preamp might be on the shopping list. Just remembered though, I still have an old Scarlett 6i6 2nd Gen that surprised me for preamp quality. Might give that one a try first. Good call on stands for overheads, my gigging stands won't be that stable with LDCs supported over a drum kit. 
