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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 24, 2024 18:09:51 GMT -6
Just listening to some stuff. Thought this particular tracks was mixed really well. (Not really talking about the song itself, more the sonics...) I guess I already had this on my mind from a couple previous threads, but I really noticed how all the instruments seems to be rolled off on the top. The acoustics seem like they're starting to roll at like 4-5khz...The drums - even the cymbals are rolled/tucked. I guess it's for the vocals to stand out...It's like every potential harsh frequency has been taken care of. It makes me re-evaluate my drum approach. Honestly, I never cut/shelf OH or Room...maybe I'm about to start.
Obviously, if you can listen to this in higher quality...
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 24, 2024 18:10:53 GMT -6
Oh meant to mention...holy crap vocals are compressed to high hell these days. It's very Nickleback...not really my taste, but it certainly serves the song.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 24, 2024 18:23:06 GMT -6
It sounds good to me, I'd dip out the lower mids a so the chorus shines a bit more but it's sort of what I'd expect of modern production.
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Post by noob on Jan 24, 2024 18:25:48 GMT -6
I love that rolled off (or shelved off) sound. Check out the album "Thrill of the Arts" by Vulfpek, mixed by Jack Stratton.
It's got that rolled off sound, one of my favorite mix references out there. No harsh frequencies just funk, punch, and clarity! Maybe not everyone's cup of tea, but when done right, these type of mixes stand out from the crowd imo.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2024 18:52:53 GMT -6
Quite an impactful, implicit ending to song/lyrics!
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Post by yewtreemagic on Jan 24, 2024 19:38:27 GMT -6
Well-produced video too
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 24, 2024 21:21:35 GMT -6
Not to make this a cuntry music thread…but that Lainey Wilson record is phenomenal. Jay Joyce produced and that guy is the best out there. Super creative. He’s a killer guitar player too.
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Post by niklas1073 on Jan 25, 2024 2:59:52 GMT -6
The genre is right down my alley and I mostly nowadays listen to new americana. The productions today are phenomenal in that genre. You can find real pearls there. Also the darker mixes and rolling off highs is kind of trendy there, which I like. Often comes with huge bottom ends too. But this particular one I felt was out of balance. I can hear what you pointed out in the rolling off and you are likely right, they have aimed to push the vocals forth. But I think the vocals have been lifted above everything to a point where it just sounds detached from the band and everything else sounds thin.
But in general, yes I think a darker mix is the trend. It’s maybe a part of a genuine revival and inspiration of early recordings.
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Post by christophert on Jan 25, 2024 3:39:47 GMT -6
It's not about a "rolled off" sound, it is about committing to the right tones, mics and preamps in the beginning - building a sonic outcome, where nothing is actually "rolled off"
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Post by niklas1073 on Jan 25, 2024 4:22:15 GMT -6
It's not about a "rolled off" sound, it is about committing to the right tones, mics and preamps in the beginning - building a sonic outcome, where nothing is actually "rolled off" You are absolutely 100% right on this. But i think the “rolled off” is, so interpreted it at least, just a description of how you can experience the sound scape, not how it is achieved technically. The aesthetic's is absolutely achieved by choice of instruments and gear, not eq’ing off the top end. I prefer calling the sound just a darker mix but i see it could be referred to as a rolled off one. Just as a ribbon has a “rolled off” sound to it. But i absolutely agree with your point.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 25, 2024 4:28:13 GMT -6
That’s an interesting insight, I didn’t think the mix sounded so much rolled off, but more positioned well ?
Elements had a natural somewhat old school sound, wonder if that is eq or equipment used at source ?
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Post by svart on Jan 25, 2024 9:09:50 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the other thread about HPF/LPF.. I do it on EVERY track that I EQ. Set the EQ (crave) to hear what I'm cutting and I move the LPF/HPF until it's just getting to the meat of the audio and then back it off slightly.
It has made a huge difference in reducing the amount of other EQ I've felt like adding in the past. Things naturally sit MUCH better without the "extra" stuff.
Also, that track is still super bright to me. There's probably some harmonic stuff added in some way or another. You can hear it at the tail end as things are fading, there's a lot of grit from something distorted.
So try rolling off the acoustics but then distorting them slightly and see if that brightness comes back..
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2024 9:57:37 GMT -6
It's not about a "rolled off" sound, it is about committing to the right tones, mics and preamps in the beginning - building a sonic outcome, where nothing is actually "rolled off" I think we all understand that. It’s actually a really good approach. Wish I had thought to do it myself.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2024 10:05:58 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the other thread about HPF/LPF.. I do it on EVERY track that I EQ. Set the EQ (crave) to hear what I'm cutting and I move the LPF/HPF until it's just getting to the meat of the audio and then back it off slightly. It has made a huge difference in reducing the amount of other EQ I've felt like adding in the past. Things naturally sit MUCH better without the "extra" stuff. Also, that track is still super bright to me. There's probably some harmonic stuff added in some way or another. You can hear it at the tail end as things are fading, there's a lot of grit from something distorted. So try rolling off the acoustics but then distorting them slightly and see if that brightness comes back.. Not listening at the moment, but by memory I remember thinking the acoustics were darker than I’m used to hearing in mixes. And when I say “darker” or “rolled off” I’m really meaning in comparison to what I expected to hear and consider the “norm.” Those acoustics just sounded like the were recorded and nothing lifted on the top end. And yeah - it’s definitely like brightness/top end has been not accentuated or rolled off and then something like Dolby A has been added on the vocal. Like the sense of that air band but it doesn’t hurt you… I guess it’s hard to tell on the drums, since there’s not much standard kit playing. But it does sound like the cymbals are down pretty far. Whole point was this was kind of a surprise to me. I hadn’t noticed it before. Maybe the cool engineers club met and everybody’s doing this…but I was not informed.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2024 10:10:06 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the other thread about HPF/LPF.. I do it on EVERY track that I EQ. Set the EQ (crave) to hear what I'm cutting and I move the LPF/HPF until it's just getting to the meat of the audio and then back it off slightly. It has made a huge difference in reducing the amount of other EQ I've felt like adding in the past. Things naturally sit MUCH better without the "extra" stuff. Also, that track is still super bright to me. There's probably some harmonic stuff added in some way or another. You can hear it at the tail end as things are fading, there's a lot of grit from something distorted. So try rolling off the acoustics but then distorting them slightly and see if that brightness comes back.. Also - when you said that about HP/LP everything, I assumed you were just starting the slopes at like 25hz and 15khz. But are you cutting like say bass up to 65Hz, rolling the acoustics off starting at like 10khz, cymbals at 12khz…I’m just throwing out numbers - but I guess I’m asking are you that aggressive? Also why not just make the two cuts once on the master? I guess if you’re passing/cutting some things at unconventional places you don’t want that to affect the other instruments.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 10:19:56 GMT -6
Oh meant to mention...holy crap vocals are compressed to high hell these days. It's very Nickleback...not really my taste, but it certainly serves the song. The pumping is godawful. They slammed the crap out of the choruses and the woman. Then whatever was on the vocal bus, stereo bus, or the master pumped down the chorus and duet parts to be quieter than the relatively uncompressed softer parts that are pumped up by the makeup gain or leveling part of the limiter. His almost speak singing is much less distorted than the louder parts too, probably because it's not being limited or clipped by the 1176 or mastering limiter and raised by the release or makeup to what the compressor or limiter thinks is the original level of the smashed choruses.
If you want to compress vocals that much without artifacts, you need to use a very program dependent compressor, think something from Massenburg, Weiss, TDR, to process the loud parts differently from the softer parts instead of processing them sequentially with single detector compressors like an 1176 -> la2a or dbx 160 -> 1176 being fed into an ssl bus comp or api 2500 or whatever without a ton of automation into a mastering limiter 😬
Or you can use two compressors and rely on masking using parallel sends, makeup, and wet/dry knobs. First compressor is for the quiet parts, make them sound good, makeup the gain, blend it with the dry signal so that the quiet parts of the dry are masked by the made up quiet parts of the wet and the held down loud parts of the wet are masked by the loud parts of the dry. then feed that into another compressor for the loud parts. the only thing is you're also compressing the quiet parts too so this approach is not as clean as the dual detector compressors and you're just hoping it works.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 10:24:32 GMT -6
It's not about a "rolled off" sound, it is about committing to the right tones, mics and preamps in the beginning - building a sonic outcome, where nothing is actually "rolled off" The equipment and mic positioning rolls off the highs. The same as a gentle filter or shelf. The electronics run out of gain and ribbon mics mostly capture no air to speak of. Here it's used for a symphonic effect to make the instruments being played sound more like older orchestral recordings that had a wider variety of bassier, stringed instruments than country distantly miced with vintage equipment.
There are big problems here because with the dynamics processing and fx sends, the backing instrumental, quiet vocals, and choruses are all in different acoustic spaces or jarringly placed in the same acoustic face from the action of the dynamics processing. This is unnatural and gross.
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Post by svart on Jan 25, 2024 10:25:33 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the other thread about HPF/LPF.. I do it on EVERY track that I EQ. Set the EQ (crave) to hear what I'm cutting and I move the LPF/HPF until it's just getting to the meat of the audio and then back it off slightly. It has made a huge difference in reducing the amount of other EQ I've felt like adding in the past. Things naturally sit MUCH better without the "extra" stuff. Also, that track is still super bright to me. There's probably some harmonic stuff added in some way or another. You can hear it at the tail end as things are fading, there's a lot of grit from something distorted. So try rolling off the acoustics but then distorting them slightly and see if that brightness comes back.. Also - when you said that about HP/LP everything, I assumed you were just starting the slopes at like 25hz and 15khz. But are you cutting like say bass up to 65Hz, rolling the acoustics off starting at like 10khz, cymbals at 12khz…I’m just throwing out numbers - but I guess I’m asking are you that aggressive? Also why not just make the two cuts once on the master? I guess if you’re passing/cutting some things at unconventional places you don’t want that to affect the other instruments. I use the standard Crave curve to start, which is (I think) 12db per decade and I start low and use the "Listen" function while I move the filters. This solos the filter so all I hear is what the filter is removing. So for instance on electric guitar I might start the HPF at 20hz and slide it up to 400hz and then back down to 150hz to just barely cut off the rumble of the cab. For the LPF I'll start at 20K and move it down to 2K and then maybe end up back at 5K to cut off just the extra fizz. Something like this frees up the low end for the bass and the high end for the cymbals, etc. I usually do it to the busses, so rhythm guitar will get one set of filters and EQ while bass will get another, etc. Drums usually gets cut up to "kick bus", "snare bus", etc., and each of those will get their own EQ and filters. Anyway, those acoustic guitars don't sound like a natural top end to me. Way too sparkly. It sounds "excited" like those old Aural Exciters.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 10:28:22 GMT -6
As I mentioned in the other thread about HPF/LPF.. I do it on EVERY track that I EQ. Set the EQ (crave) to hear what I'm cutting and I move the LPF/HPF until it's just getting to the meat of the audio and then back it off slightly. It has made a huge difference in reducing the amount of other EQ I've felt like adding in the past. Things naturally sit MUCH better without the "extra" stuff. Also, that track is still super bright to me. There's probably some harmonic stuff added in some way or another. You can hear it at the tail end as things are fading, there's a lot of grit from something distorted. So try rolling off the acoustics but then distorting them slightly and see if that brightness comes back.. Not listening at the moment, but by memory I remember thinking the acoustics were darker than I’m used to hearing in mixes. And when I say “darker” or “rolled off” I’m really meaning in comparison to what I expected to hear and consider the “norm.” Those acoustics just sounded like the were recorded and nothing lifted on the top end. And yeah - it’s definitely like brightness/top end has been not accentuated or rolled off and then something like Dolby A has been added on the vocal. Like the sense of that air band but it doesn’t hurt you… I guess it’s hard to tell on the drums, since there’s not much standard kit playing. But it does sound like the cymbals are down pretty far. Whole point was this was kind of a surprise to me. I hadn’t noticed it before. Maybe the cool engineers club met and everybody’s doing this…but I was not informed. They could've simply used a tape plugin with a lower ips speed, ribbon mics, any tilt filter or broad shelves, or a high frequency limiter. You can really take the air off something normally recorded with a high frequency limiter.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 10:33:39 GMT -6
Also - when you said that about HP/LP everything, I assumed you were just starting the slopes at like 25hz and 15khz. But are you cutting like say bass up to 65Hz, rolling the acoustics off starting at like 10khz, cymbals at 12khz…I’m just throwing out numbers - but I guess I’m asking are you that aggressive? Also why not just make the two cuts once on the master? I guess if you’re passing/cutting some things at unconventional places you don’t want that to affect the other instruments. I use the standard Crave curve to start, which is (I think) 12db per decade and I start low and use the "Listen" function while I move the filters. This solos the filter so all I hear is what the filter is removing. So for instance on electric guitar I might start the HPF at 20hz and slide it up to 400hz and then back down to 150hz to just barely cut off the rumble of the cab. For the LPF I'll start at 20K and move it down to 2K and then maybe end up back at 5K to cut off just the extra fizz. Something like this frees up the low end for the bass and the high end for the cymbals, etc. I usually do it to the busses, so rhythm guitar will get one set of filters and EQ while bass will get another, etc. Drums usually gets cut up to "kick bus", "snare bus", etc., and each of those will get their own EQ and filters. Anyway, those acoustic guitars don't sound like a natural top end to me. Way too sparkly. It sounds "excited" like those old Aural Exciters. any sort of aliased limiting or clipping will excite the high end like that and can also distort the high end to make it murky. applying a way too fast release will zip up anything. they don't have to deliberately aim for these distortions, it's the result of the hamfisted dynamics processing in popular music that ruins the performance of the music, i.e. the choruses getting quieter than the verses, the guitars being dark but distorted in the high end, nothing getting louder when emphasized.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2024 10:42:31 GMT -6
Also - when you said that about HP/LP everything, I assumed you were just starting the slopes at like 25hz and 15khz. But are you cutting like say bass up to 65Hz, rolling the acoustics off starting at like 10khz, cymbals at 12khz…I’m just throwing out numbers - but I guess I’m asking are you that aggressive? Also why not just make the two cuts once on the master? I guess if you’re passing/cutting some things at unconventional places you don’t want that to affect the other instruments. I use the standard Crave curve to start, which is (I think) 12db per decade and I start low and use the "Listen" function while I move the filters. This solos the filter so all I hear is what the filter is removing. So for instance on electric guitar I might start the HPF at 20hz and slide it up to 400hz and then back down to 150hz to just barely cut off the rumble of the cab. For the LPF I'll start at 20K and move it down to 2K and then maybe end up back at 5K to cut off just the extra fizz. Something like this frees up the low end for the bass and the high end for the cymbals, etc. I usually do it to the busses, so rhythm guitar will get one set of filters and EQ while bass will get another, etc. Drums usually gets cut up to "kick bus", "snare bus", etc., and each of those will get their own EQ and filters. Anyway, those acoustic guitars don't sound like a natural top end to me. Way too sparkly. It sounds "excited" like those old Aural Exciters. Ok. I need to listen again, because I heard them the opposite of sparkly.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jan 25, 2024 10:44:23 GMT -6
I use the standard Crave curve to start, which is (I think) 12db per decade and I start low and use the "Listen" function while I move the filters. This solos the filter so all I hear is what the filter is removing. So for instance on electric guitar I might start the HPF at 20hz and slide it up to 400hz and then back down to 150hz to just barely cut off the rumble of the cab. For the LPF I'll start at 20K and move it down to 2K and then maybe end up back at 5K to cut off just the extra fizz. Something like this frees up the low end for the bass and the high end for the cymbals, etc. I usually do it to the busses, so rhythm guitar will get one set of filters and EQ while bass will get another, etc. Drums usually gets cut up to "kick bus", "snare bus", etc., and each of those will get their own EQ and filters. Anyway, those acoustic guitars don't sound like a natural top end to me. Way too sparkly. It sounds "excited" like those old Aural Exciters. any sort of aliased limiting or clipping will excite the high end like that and can also distort the high end to make it murky. applying a way too fast release will zip up anything. they don't have to deliberately aim for these distortions, it's the result of the hamfisted dynamics processing in popular music that ruins the performance of the music, i.e. the choruses getting quieter than the verses, the guitars being dark but distorted in the high end, nothing getting louder when emphasized. I think “hamfisted” is a little dramatic. You don’t like the mix. Ok. But to say this is awful is just being silly.
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Post by svart on Jan 25, 2024 10:51:31 GMT -6
I use the standard Crave curve to start, which is (I think) 12db per decade and I start low and use the "Listen" function while I move the filters. This solos the filter so all I hear is what the filter is removing. So for instance on electric guitar I might start the HPF at 20hz and slide it up to 400hz and then back down to 150hz to just barely cut off the rumble of the cab. For the LPF I'll start at 20K and move it down to 2K and then maybe end up back at 5K to cut off just the extra fizz. Something like this frees up the low end for the bass and the high end for the cymbals, etc. I usually do it to the busses, so rhythm guitar will get one set of filters and EQ while bass will get another, etc. Drums usually gets cut up to "kick bus", "snare bus", etc., and each of those will get their own EQ and filters. Anyway, those acoustic guitars don't sound like a natural top end to me. Way too sparkly. It sounds "excited" like those old Aural Exciters. Ok. I need to listen again, because I heard them the opposite of sparkly. I'm listening on earbuds, so it may be a little more bright for me than a normal listen on monitors. But in the intro, the held higher notes kind of have this air about them that sounds different from the lower notes, almost as if they were accentuated somehow, but I don't think it was EQ boosting. I dunno. Could be a bunch of different things. I like the mix overall, but I'll agree that the vocals are pretty over-processed to the point they make my ears strain a little.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2024 11:15:31 GMT -6
any sort of aliased limiting or clipping will excite the high end like that and can also distort the high end to make it murky. applying a way too fast release will zip up anything. they don't have to deliberately aim for these distortions, it's the result of the hamfisted dynamics processing in popular music that ruins the performance of the music, i.e. the choruses getting quieter than the verses, the guitars being dark but distorted in the high end, nothing getting louder when emphasized. I think “hamfisted” is a little dramatic. You don’t like the mix. Ok. But to say this is awful is just being silly. the choruses are quieter, more distorted, or less intelligible than the verses. the less that is done to the mix/fader balance by the blunt limiting or bus/master processing, the better the song sounds. when it should be getting louder by summing two voices together, it sounds worse and gets quieter. everything is clear enough when it's just him with the strings.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 25, 2024 12:09:05 GMT -6
Oh meant to mention...holy crap vocals are compressed to high hell these days. It's very Nickleback...not really my taste, but it certainly serves the song. Just looked up the credits....It was produced by the same guy (Joey Moi) who has done, wait for it...Nickleback! good ear John. Just a thought....could we invite producers/engineers here for a Q/A session? Could be anyone really. Like we are talking about this guy's production. Why not get him here and ask him? Could be fun and informative. I mean, it's fun to speculate, but I'd love to hear from the source!
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